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CT Can someone please explain why Episode V is considered the best?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Logan La Marco, Mar 4, 2016.

  1. JediKnight234

    JediKnight234 Jedi Youngling

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    Apr 16, 2017
    Well, its a nice sort of twist for the good guys to lose, its not what you expect. Vader goes on an X30 kill streak (of his own imperial men) I am your father. So many good things abt V. WHats ur fav SW film? I would be interested to know. Han being a badass, Luke and the wampa. tbh battle of hoth was overatted i agree with u. But i liked cloud city and lando, would have liked to see him in IV, even prequels.
     
  2. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Don't worry, it is not really a 10/10 spetacular movie. It's decent. Surely overrated.

    Main issue is the waste of potential in the movie. Heck who cares about Han and Leia love story when there's a whole galaxy in crisis? Show me more of the political state, where is the republic capital?

    The story feels not right... but I have to agree the characters are more well written. It's is well directed too. But again why focus on little things when we have a whole galaxy?
     
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  3. BookExogorth

    BookExogorth Jedi Master star 4

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    May 4, 2017
    I brought this up to my sister, and one thing she mentioned was that it has almost become a fad to put ESB at the top of your rating. That's not to detract from it, I love it, but some people say that because it's popular.
     
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  4. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    It's the same reason why people often put The Shawshank Redemption in their top 10 best film of all time. It's something everybody do.
     
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  5. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    Clearly the prequels weren't written then so the focus of the story was the Rebels, now scattered to the wind, narrowed down to the band of Luke, Leia and Han with the their sidekicks. Nothing wrong with that, and I don't think there ever was an issue with that at the time. Keeping the story to following that same band of characters is the strength of the films, expand too much and you can lose focus as the prequels showed.

    How boring. Lets sit down and talk politics. Again none of it was written before Empire and given what we know now, how would showing Coruscant add to the story?
     
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  6. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Rough drafts of ESB and ROTJ showed the republic capital. It's an important planet, I guess.But for some reason they did not use this idea.

    And we don't have to sit down and talk politics. Just show us what is going on the senate. That'd be cool.
     
  7. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    First, these drafts had the Imperial capitol. The republic no longer exists after the dissolving of the senate, which happens in ANH.
    The reason why it wasn't used, most likely budget. Both ESB and RotJ had limitations on budget, Lucas was setting up his own filmmaking company and other companies, he didn't have a bottomless well of money. And ESB did go over budget a bit. So Lucas kept a closer eye on RotJ.

    And speaking about the senate, it was disbanded, permanently, in ANH.
    So what would you show in ESB and RotJ, the inside of an empty building?
    With the senate gone, the Emperor and the regional governors under him, have direct control over their territory.
    So there really isn't much politics any more.
    Just a direct rule by force or fear, "Do as we say or we'll kill you!"

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
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  8. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Wow, you know a lot of stuff.
     
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  9. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    If done right it wouldn't have to be boring. And not everything we see in a movie has to "add to the story". Story isn't everything, especially in SW. Visuals and effects also play a HUGE part. Otherwise we could read a book instead. I don't miss politics in ESB. That's why we have the prequels, to complement the OT and show us the backstory and elements that were left out.
     
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  10. Jakethewhitt02

    Jakethewhitt02 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 29, 2017
    One word: Hoth.
     
  11. ekrolo2

    ekrolo2 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 17, 2014
    As someone who recently watched it, I would compare it and the rest of the OT as the movie equivalent of the Killing Joke comic, things that were highly successful and imaginative for their time that has influenced a great many creators moving forward that it's greatest achievements have been done better by things that followed it.

    Much like how Batman & Joker's dynamic has been done WAY better in quite a few following stories (Morrison, Snyder's runs on Batman, Dark Knight), I feel like Empire and the rest of the OT have had many of their elements executed well in other places. There are quite a number of movie sequels I'd easily say do the whole "heroes at their lowest" darker, sequel thing better than Empire does like Dark Knight, Terminator 2, Two Towers, X2, DOFP....
     
  12. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Probably because of the wacky humor. "Laser brain," R2 gets eaten up but doesn't taste very good, the Falcon flies into a big space slug, a box of tools falls on Han's head, the evil cyborg henchman from the first movie is Luke's dad. It's pretty hilarious. [face_laugh]
     
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  13. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    As someone who grew up with ANH as a teenager, for me ESB is not better in any way. If anything it's not worse but EQUAL. I don't know why people constantly have to rank things. Why does everything have to be better or worse than another? Why not accept that a movie can sometimes be neither better nor worse. I never had any complaints about ESB when I was a teenager. Still it never managed to top the pure pleasure of watching ANH for me. The original will always be special. ESB is a great sequel but it doesn't quite reach that level of originality. This is not a scientific analysis but purely subjective. ESB is good in every aspect. But it just fails to match the impact ANH had on me when I first watched it. I think no matter how they made the sequel, it would still just be that, a sequel, while ANH can be enjoyed without any knowledge of the saga at all.
     
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  14. rpeugh

    rpeugh Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2002
    I view it as the second best behind only ROTS but I certainly have no problem with people ranking it number 1.

    I think it brilliantly took the series in a darker, more serious direction without taking it completely out of the tone of the first movie. The humor is top notch, managing to be funny without turning itself into a comedy or meta self aware fiasco. The acting is great. It manages to convey emotions while being neither too overly dramatic nor too wooden. While I think too many people view practical effects with ridiculously rose tinted glasses, I have to admit that the Yoda puppet is a great achievement. Bespin is by far my favorite planet of the OT - especially in the SE. The lightsaber fight is easily my favorite of the OT and third favorite in the entire saga. The haunted house angle during that fight was brilliant.
     
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  15. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    Its human nature isn't it to compare everything and of course it provokes good debate.

    I totally get what you're saying about Star Wars being your favourite of them if you saw it first, because its difficult to capture that lightning in a bottle moment or the same impact again with another film, you've already been wowed by the effects and the characters and the story. Films like Jaws, Raiders & Die Hard immediately spring to my mind when I think of film series.

    For me Empire is an exception to the usual sequel rules, because it took the overall story to another level by doing the unexpected, it also improved the production values and did something that wasn't the norm with film sequels - it set up the next one and was a cliffhanger.
     
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  16. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Best part of the movie, no doubt. On the other hand, the whole second act could have been better written.
     
  17. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    In what way do you think that second act could have been better?

    I like the whole film, but all of Bespin is the best part of the film for me.
     
  18. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    The Bespin part is gold, except for those Chewbacca antics (bit silly).

    I always tought we should have seen some Curuscant (imperial capital) scene on the second act. Perhaps instead of talking to the hologram, Vader could have paid Sidious a personal visit.

    I'm fine with the dialogue and characters, but I don't get the asteroid chase. I mean, the romance is well written but a whole act stucked on some asteroid? I feel we missed a big opportunity to see the galaxy's situation.

    This is my humble opinion. I might be very wrong.
     
  19. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016

    Meh seeing Coruscant would have made the galaxy feel smaller imo. I liked how Vader and the fleet were off in the far reaches of the outer rims searching for Rebels and how isolated they were. I also like how the first time we see the Emp it is on a hologram it adds to the mystery and actual reveal in ROTJ.
     
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  20. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2015
    I think one of the charms of the OT is, that we didn't see the capital, and such. It leaves more to the imagination. One of the OT's greatest powers IMO is suggestion.
     
  21. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005
    I thought I had replied to this thread but I guess not.

    Empire is without question the best Star Wars movie and for me, it's not even that close.

    My 2nd favorite is A New Hope which started it all. That said A New Hope is a very generic Space Opera. The characters are mostly flat and stereotypical. Rescue the princes...the old crusty bad guy (Tarkin), Vader was very flat...he was just a big baddy. While A New Hope was a lot of fun, it really didn't have much depth. You could have changed a few characters and called it Flash Gordon and it would have passed.

    Empire is the strongest and deepest Star Wars movie from beginning to end. Not to mention the music is the best of the saga. This was John Williams in his prime. There are 3 distinct acts in Empire and all 3 are strong. Most movies don't have 3 strong acts. For example Rogue One has a great act 3 but acts 1 and 2 are slow and sometimes lacking. Let's break down the 3 acts:

    ACT 1 - Hoth - Not many movies open with this kind of huge battle, definitely not at the time Empire came out. This act also begins to humanize Luke, Han, and Leia in ways we never saw in ANH. Even without the death star the empire seems more daunting and powerful than we've ever seen before. The scene with the binoculars seeing the walkers for the first time gives me chills.

    ACT 2 - Degobah / Asteroid Chase - The scenes on Degobah were pure magic. I can't stand muppet movies or even most other Jim Hensen movies like Labyrynth but what they did with Yoda was truly amazing. This was the best Yoda of any SW movie. The wisdom, the knowledge, even the playfulness. The asteroid chase is fantastic and we start to see Vader as the ultimate baddy. He's still one dimensional at this point like in ANH but he's much stronger and badder in Empire. That said we see Vader on one knee before the Emperor? What? The big baddy is subservient to an even bigger baddy? *intrigued*

    ACT 3 - Bespin - The finale in Bespin... Lando...do we trust him or not? The powerful and haunting carbonite scene. Then finally Luke vs Vader. Vader is so much more powerful and daunting in this movie. He's just toying with Luke and everybody knows it. This is the movie that made Darth Vader in the discussion of best movie villain of all time. It's all about Empire. He was one dimensional in ANH. He was beaten in ROTJ, but in Empire...he's simply awesome. Then the reveal at the end....what? Vader is Luke's father? Not only that but he wants to work with Luke and overthrow the emperor? This is the point where Vader is no longer a one dimensional villain. A new complexity has been added to him. All because of Empire.

    So Empire did some truly amazing things:
    • It added so much depth to the characters. They are no longer one dimensional stereotypes like they were in ANH. They are real, they have struggles, they have positive traits, and even negative traits. And arguably the best character of ESB, Darth Vader, went from a one dimensional villain in ANH to an extremely powerful badazz in ESB who became much more complex when he offered to join with his son and overthrow the emperor.
    • The universe was expanded tremendously. We are introduced to Hoth, Degobah, Bespin, and even Yoda and the emperor. The Star Wars universe got much deeper and more powerful with this movie.
    • Not to mention it was solid from beginning to end. Act 1 was great, Act 2 was great, Act 3 was great. In my opinion there are minor flaws but nowhere near as big of flaws as pretty much every other Star Wars movie.
    Why other SW movies are not as good as Empire:
    • ANH - Cookie cutter space opera. It's fun but the characters are pretty flat and most of what this movie did had been done before besides the special effects.
    • ROTJ - Good guys constantly and unrealistically winning. Act 2 is pretty weak. Don't get me started on ewoks...
    • TPM - Hated the way Anakin and Jar Jar were portrayed on screen. The movie is all about the opening with the jedi, the pod race, and the final battle against Darth Maul. The rest of the movie...meh...
    • AOTC - The cheesy love story derailed this one. Along with some cheesy acting overall and bad CGI. Did not like Dooku. Christopher Lee played Count Dracula and you cast him as a villain called Count Dooku? Lazy and unimaginative.
    • ROTS - The best of the prequels but still some cheesy moments like Padme's death, the high ground, etc... And Anakin's turn still feels weird. Ie...it didn't flow very well.
    • TFA - Basically a cookie cutter rip off of ANH. Not a fan.
    • RO - Act 3 was epic but acts 1 and 2 were pretty lacking.
     
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  22. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016
    Perfectly agree on all those points. I'd also add purely from a filmmaking perspective ESB is the best edited, shot, acted, directed of the franchise. You'd be hard pressed to find any serious cinema lover disagree. The American Film Institute has ESB as best of the trilogy as well.
     
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  23. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2009
    What makes ESB great is that it genuinely builds upon everything established in ANH, deepening the characters and taking the narrative to unexpected places. It's also arguably more cinematically assured than ANH, in terms of the effects, the score, the cinematography and editing.

    But it still stands on the shoulders of ANH.
     
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  24. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 23, 2005
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  25. unironically

    unironically Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 14, 2017
    Your tastes have simply become more refined. Game of thrones, fight club and IMDb top 250 simply won't cut it anymore.

    You've taken your first step into a larger world.
     
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