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Can we conclude that Sidious has been the Master of the Sith for no more than 10 years prior to TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by LottDodd, Jun 28, 2010.

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  1. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    That's why Anakin is exceptional: he was created by the Force.
     
  2. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Meh. The 'force made him' just sounds soo contrived. And as mentioned, wholly inconsistent with the 5 other films.

    Made by the Sith,
    trained by Jedi,
    wrecked Sith from within,
    as was originally scripted/intended....


    priceless.
     
  3. Obi-Chron

    Obi-Chron Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 11, 2003
    ^^^
    So true! Truth is a beautiful thing to behold.

    The bottom line is 'the force' allowed all Sith, all evil to be created, for darkness or light are personal choices in the use of 'the force,' and 'the force' allows the Sith to use it for evil intent.

    It is thus not at all problematic if 'the force' also allowed Anakin to be "created through manipulation" by the Sith.

    Every life form has ultimate ties to 'the force.' Since the force is in everything, it knows all.

    If Sith 'dark powers' were rising, the need for a chosen one becomes plausible. The converse of this POV is seen in TPM when the council refuses (a) to accept Jinn had been confronted by a Sith, and (b) to believe the chosen one stood before them, for if there were no Sith, there was no need for a chosen one.

    Besides, the egotistical Jedi were self-deluded into thinking the chosen one had to arise from the Jedi. Hence the council's refusal to train Skywalker.

    The prophecy makes no mention of the chosen one being a Jedi or a Sith, or neither for that matter. However, the Sith arose, and they gained power to the point where they could manipulate midichlorians (echh, I hate that 'insertion' into the saga - removes all the mystery), which necessitated a chosen one.

    One sure way to ensure the chosen one arises when the Sith reach peak in power is for 'the force' to allow the Sith to create him -- their own Frankenstein monster.

    Oh George . . . what could have, should have been!
     
  4. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    If the Force is free to act directly in this fashion, I can think of other ways in which it could have eliminated the Sith, while sparing the galaxy the destruction wrought by the rise of the Empire.
     
  5. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    First of all, it is left ambiguous in the movie, so you can accept either version.
    Secondly, what do you mean it was originally scripted/intended? I very much doubt that Lucas though about that before he wrote the rough draft of ROTS, because there is nothing in the previous movies suggesting that. Palpatine never cared about Anakin until he was found by the Jedi.
    And thirdly, even if Lucas had kept the line in the movie, it wouldn't be necessarily true. Palpatine lies all the time, so the "revelation" could easily be a lie as well.

    And finally, Vader is still a creation of the Sith: Palpatine perverted and deformed the greatest Jedi of al time creating a monster.
     
  6. Eternity85

    Eternity85 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2008
    Good point!

    Though i still dont believe the Sith created Anakin. But all this talk about the choosen one, the prophecy and the Sith makes me think about something: When was the last time the force was actually in "balance?"

    The Sith has always existed alongside the Jedi for thousands of years, so that means the force has always been out of balance, right?? Why would the force wait so long to conceive a savior, one who would destroy the Sith and restore balance to the force. Strange indeed..
     
  7. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    I believe the Jedi consider it to still be in balance even when Anakin is presented to them for the first time... and I don't think they're wrong in that assessment. But Anakin's appearance and the very perception of him being a prophecised "chosen one" naturally give them great concern (that look Windu gives to Yoda tells us all we need to know). If Anakin is what Qui-Gon says he is, and fate and/or "the will of the force" has brought him to their attention, it means dark times are almost certainly ahead for them. Sure enough, when we arrive in AOTC, the force is indeed now considered out of balance as far as the Jedi are concerned, most likely due to the Sith's secret rise to power - something they had yet to obtain prior to TPM. Suddenly, the need for Anakin and his importance (which was at first dismissed in TPM) has never been greater. The dark side suddenly "clouds everything" and Jedi "abilities to use the force have diminished".

    Although the Sith have existed for thousands of years, up until TPM, the Jedi clearly believed them extinct. Crucially at that point though, this belief was justified, as the Sith only actually existed in secret and were pretty disconnected from any real authority over the galaxy and all other lifeforms at that point. One thing to address would be whether or not the Sith had ever before been in such a position as the one Palpatine leads them to in ROTS. If not, the imbalance referred to would be greater than ever and therefore this would certainly have to be considered the darkest time the Jedi have ever faced. This would justify exactly why such a saviour as Anakin has been preserved for such a time. Alternatively though, another question would be; is Anakin the first and only ever prophecised "saviour"? The prophecy may not be exclusive to just one such person throughout all of time. In the past, if the force was out of balance to a similar degree - something which could be well speculated (Palpatine does say "once more the sith will rule the galaxy"), there may have been others who came along and fulfilled such a similar destiny as Anakin. Anakin may well be simply the next one in a line of Jedi chosen ones - it is a Jedi prophecy, we have to remember. But he is certainly the only one of his generation from what we can tell. I would doubt even had there been one(s) in the past, they were all that frequent - the term "the chosen one" may be period specific. But hey, I'm really just throwing that out there .... its probably too far-fetched for most, though I guess its a possibility given the limited stuff we learn.

    The key question is to establish what balance really means here. It is only ambiguously defined within the movies (probably intentionally so), so unless everyone can agree on what it really means for all those involved in the films, different interpretations regarding the force and the chosen one will continue to exist and retain plausibility to a certain extent. My belief is that balance here pertains to harmony (some have also suggested it is about equality or mathematical balance, but I personally think this brings up too many issues). My assessment here is that the Sith's manipulation of the force brings disharmony because they use it for primarily detrimental and unnatural causes - hence why when they control the galaxy and the victims of this abuse become more vast and widespread, the disharmony within the force becomes extreme.

    But hey, at the end of the day its all vague for a reason. The more defined and absolute it is, I think the less we'd invest in its concept. That we can make these things what we want is the prime reason for their appeal.
     
  8. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    "If the force"? Are you suggesting that the force has no interventional power? The films certainly allude to the idea it does - "will of the force", speaking to characters or even influencing events such as Qui-Gon's passage to Tatooine, "nothing happens by accident", "controls my actions" etc. If we acknowledge that the force can intervene, although you bring up a very pertinent question as to why or what degree it doesn't end the rule of the sith/empire sooner, it should be remembered the method it allegedly picked in this instance proved successful in the end. That's the most important thing. And it would only have been down to Palpatine's countering influence and Anakin's own initial decision that it didn't succeed sooner. The opportunity was afforded to Anakin in ROTS, of course.

    Its not unlikely that Palpatine knew of the supposed prophecy. If he believed in it, we could speculate his swaying of and influence over Anakin is not just about picking the strongest candidate for the role, it is also a wise, tactical move designed to neutralise what the force has set in motion, even if only temporarily. Perhaps Palpatine thought he could do more than just neutralise it though - he perhaps felt he could destroy it. Ultimately though, his arrogance proves his own undoing.

    Both the theory that Anakin was created by the sith and the theory he was created by the force alone are entirely valid. We will have our own preferences, of course. But its probably best we refrain from trying to discredit the opposite position to that of our own because its pretty much impossible to succeed one way or the other. By design, Lucas didn't leave any one theory more or less plausible than the other.
     
  9. Eternity85

    Eternity85 Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2008
    No matter, not even Sidious(the master mind)could trick the force! Regardless if Anakin was created by Sidious or the force, it was no great success for him either way :p
     
  10. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    I don't know. I think what he did to Anakin could be regarded as his greatest achievement of all. Yes, Vader ultimately proved his undoing, but one could reason that he actually, at the very least, managed to postpone the inevitable in this regard for more than two decades, which is no mean feat if it truly was fated.
     
  11. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    Some in this forum seem to believe that the Force is a mainfestation of good, and therefore would be actively trying to correct itself from Sith "Corruption".

    Good is a point of view.

    "The Force" has no qualms as to who uses it, or how it is used. The Sith are just as fueled by it and competent in its arts as the Jedi. The Force does not favor the Jedi because they are nice to plants and children. The Force is not inherrently "Good" nor "Evil". The Light Side and Dark Side of the Force aren't real distinctions so much as they are philosophical differences on what a being should do with great power.
    In this sense, The Force is much like fire. It is neither good nor evil. You can use it to cook your food and warm your house; or you can use it to burn the villages of your enemies and incinerate a rival you claim to be a witch.

    The Prophecy of the Chosen One is not neccesarily exclusive to the Jedi either. The Sith are just as clairavoient as the Jedi, and would likely be as aware of visions and omens in the Force portending to said Chosen One. After all "Balance to the Force" (whatever that means) would affect the Sith just as severly as the Jedi would.

    I Believe, that Palpatine believed, that Anakin WAS the "Chosen One". Palpatine had a different interpretation of what that meant than the Jedi did, but he definately knew that destiny was swirling around Anakin. The Jedi, didn't understand what the prophecy meant either, and in ROTS admitted as much. Palpatine knew that he could use the very idea of a "Chosen One" as a weapon against the Jedi. Not only would it feed Anakin's Pride... but it would also distance Anakin from the other Jedi, set him apart... make him somehow, otherworldly.

    In our own world, people look every day for proof that the Book of Revelations is coming to pass. Every Generation for the last two Millinia has provided proof to why their time was the time of Prophecy and that the end of the world was nigh.

    I don't believe the Jedi took the thought of the "Chosen One" much more seriously than that. I doubt Anakin was the first canidate presented as a possible "One", and the Jedi were understanably skeptical to Qui-gon's Suggestion that this "boy" was the one prophesized.

    Anyway, this has turned into a long rambling tangent. My point was: The Prophecy of the Chosen One applied and was Known about to both the Sith and the Jedi. Both sides equally believed (and disbelieved) the prophecy. Palpatine exploited a vauge, unprovable, prophecy to his advantage... preying on the superstitions and traditions of the Jedi. The Force was neutral throughout, niether favoring one side or the other. The Force is manifested in every blade of grass, every bactirium, every animal, and every sentient in the galaxy. It is larger than the petty squabling of two factions, even if those factions can utilize the Force in a way that other sentients cannot. The Force is Simply too big to be swayed one way or the other by the Sith or the Jedi. These "Magicians" and thier "Sorcerror's Ways" are powerful and terrifying to other sentients, but they don't stack up to the power of the Galaxy and the infinate nature of time. In 30,000 years of Galactic History the Empire lasted barely thirty. It's wars and downfall were not the end of strife and conflict... Vader and the Emperor's death did not fundementally change the nature of the galaxy or the force. The lasting effects of the Empire have all been the pollitical fallout rather than a spiritual or supernatural change in the nature of the force.
     
  12. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    Agreed. And I've never said it any other way.

    Exactly that. Lucas originally penned the story with Anakin being the direct result of a Sith experiment.

    I can't dispute or validate what Palpatine cared about, but the evidence predates the ROTS drafts. Darth Maul referred to the boy on Tatooine as "the Sith experiment" so if Maul knew...

    Jedi lie as well, so if it works....
     
  13. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    That is though one way in which the story presents itself. In one regard we are certainly led to believe Anakin is created by the force to destroy the Sith. But this is a Jedi prophecy and a Jedi's interpretation of any such creation. The Sith may read into such a creation differently, of course. But any such interpretation from their point of view is never discussed or explained within the movies.
    Absolutely. But fundamentally this is a movie saga which attempts to stress clearly the definitions between good and evil as seperate concepts. That has always been part of its core appeal
    Yet Star Wars treats us to concepts such as the "will of the force". The Force apparently controls and speaks to individuals within the Star Wars galaxy. Fire does not. If the force has such a will and commands it to its users, and the Sith disobey such a thing for their own benefit and greed, one can see why it may have taken sides here.
    The Sith never mention any such prophecy. From what we learn in the movies it seems the prophecy is entirely from the perspective of the Jedi.
    [face_thinking] I think they did. The Jedi only doubted whether Anakin was in fact the chosen one. They seem quite convinced that bringing balance is about destroying the Sith - "It was said that you would destroy the sith, not join them". Lucas clarified something along the lines of "The prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the force. Anakin becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader does bring balance to the force by destroying the Sith. He does this because he is redeemed by his son" - I admit this is from memory and probably not 100% accurate but its in the Darth Vader doc on the Episode 3 DVD so it can be sourced.[face_peace]
     
  14. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    When does Darth Maul say that???
     
  15. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    "A prophecy, misread, it could be" (that may be paraphrased)

    The scene in the gunship is where I was refering to the Jedi being unsure of the meaning of the prophecy.

    The Sith were surely aware of the Prophecy. Whether they abscribed to it or not is debateable, but they knew of it's existence. (At the very least one could argue Dooku told them... but give them some credit... They Study the Jedi, They've taken there comparitive philosophy classes) A story of that kind of significance to the Jedi would not have escaped the attention of the Sith.

    Even if Plaugeis or Sidious did not believe in the concept of "The Chosen One" themselves, they could have intentionaly used this story as a weapon against the Jedi. The Prophecy claims the Chosen One will be created by the midichlorians.... Plaugeis uses that story to develope a power to coax life from the midchlorians. (This is a Power the Jedi would consider to be "Unnatural", a corupt perversion in the cycle of life, but the Sith would have no such qualms over creating an abomination.) As long as the Sith can keep Anakin's origins from being traced back to them... through the Hutts and Slavers Shmi was shuffled through... The Sith have a perfect Ace in the Hole Double Agent. The Sith are sure the Jedi will find Anakin eventually, his unnatural powers in the force stick out like a beacon, and when they do, Anakin will have allready lived a hard life, mistreated in slavery. The Seeds of Anger will have been planted, (not to mention whatever other evil manipulations and triggers crafted into the corruption of the midichlorians to create life) and all the Jedi will see is a boy who fits the Prophecy.
    Yoda and Windu feel the wrongness of it. It's almost too perfect. Sure there is a prophecy, but the Jedi likely believe in it more metaphoricly than as literal events to come. (Again, to use Revelations, They likely believe plauge, famine, war, and pestilence to be signs of the apocalypse, rather than believing that there will be literal horsemen galloping about. Yet, here, with Anakin, one of these Mythical Horsemen is staring them in the face).
    But in the long run, isn't that how destiny works? By attempting to manipulate a prophecy, the Sith fullfilled and succumbed to it. The Jedi knew the signs of the Chosen One, but they did not know why the midichlorians would concieve a youngling... nor did they know that "Balance to the Force" would cost a near total anihilation of the Jedi as well as the Sith. The Sith, of course, only saw the destruction of the Jedi in there visions... They were blind to the fact that they had sealed there doom as well. The Will of the Force, as insrutible as it is to comprehend, has been appeased. But it has been as harsh in it's judgement on the Jedi as it has been on the Sith.
    I think that the Force did not care so much that it was "Light Side" or "Dark Side", but that it was bottled up in too few beings. Balance, or as close to Balance as the Force Achieved, was when Destiny was in the hands of the common beings of the Galaxy. And When the Supermen, waging thier Holy Wars against each other, were no longer manipulating the natural energies (and the minds of the citizens, and the fundamental laws of physics, and everyday life) to thier advantage.
     
  16. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Fair enough. But any such uncertainty eventually gets crushed by the events of ROTJ anyway. And while that shows they may be questioning their reading of the prophecy, it doesn't mean definitively that "the jedi didn't understand what the prophecy meant" as it was put earlier. They were fairly sure, though I grant you perhaps not 100%. I suppose a Jedi should never be so certain of things in any regard - "clear your mind must be if you are to discover..." etc.
    I think its in a novel, no? Personally I don't consider any of that stuff found in novels as being validated. But maybe thats just me. I would just never quote any of it as proof of anything, even if it backed up a theory I believed in. If its story related and it dont come from Lucas' pencil, I personally take it with a pinch of salt. Call me old fashioned :p
     
  17. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    I read the novel (years ago) but I don't remember it. That would certainly indicate that Lucas meant to be it that way from the beginning.

    And don't worry, I don't consider anything valid except for what's on the movies. Anything else is up to interpretation.
     
  18. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    The novelization for TPM might've had that Maul line in it, I'm not sure...
    I am certain that it was in the "Darth Maul journal".
    Either way, Lucas and/or Pablo were aware and left it alone.

    If you combine the early drafts of ROTS with that Maul line... a clearer picture about Anakin's origin emerges from the.... midichlorians.

    And we don't even need any Sith-help/lies.
    :p
     
  19. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    But it's not even hinted in the movie. And besides, it's still contradictory. If Anakin was created by the Sith why didn't they train him, why didn't they try to find him?
     
  20. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    The entire saga is loaded with contradictions...

    Nobody with a blaster is as acurate and precise as an Imperial Stormtrooper, remember.:p And if memory serves, Palpatine wanted the Jedi to train the boy, so he would chafe under their rules... and become ripe for the Sith-picking. Or something close to that. Maybe Fenn has it, or can recall the details...

    I have long railed against the uber-poor writing and planning of the PT, especially with having over a decade to get it all streamlined. Should've spent less time deciding on 3po's maker, and more time on stuff that really mattered.
     
  21. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009

    Well, that's your opinion. Anakin being created by the Force is not contradictory. It's only contradictory if you believe that the Sith created him (which is never stated in the movies) and never bothered to look for him.

    Palpatine wanted the Jedi to train the boy? When did he say that?
     
  22. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    I never said "Anakin being made by the force was contradictory", I said it was: "meh".:p


    It's been years since I read the source firsthand, but for the most part the gyst of it was: Palpatine left it to chance if the Jedi found him. And if his latent abilities were as expected, then surely the Jedi would fail in training him to harness his power. If memory serves, Maul only remarked that "the (Sith) experiment" was with the Jedi, or had been taken. Something somewhat vague, yet specific enough to Anakin/Sith-experiment/Tatooine. I just dug around for the books, and don't have either anymore. Somebody's got to have TPM handy, the Maul Journal, not so much.
     
  23. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 13, 2007
    Agreed.

    And left it out of the film too. :p
     
  24. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    I don't see how the Sith Creating Anakin is in the slightest way contradictory.... The only two times midchlorians and conception are used in the films are when Qui-gon first suggests it to the council in TPM, and when Palpatine discusses the Legend of Plaugeis the Wise. These are nearly the only times midichlorians are mentioned at all. Are they connected? You Betcha. At most there are six lines about midichlorians in the entire Saga and one of those lines claims Anakin was concieved by the midichlorians, and a second names Plaugeis as the only being who has been able to Coax life from midichlorians. There are not a lot of red herrings or other theories offered by the films themselves on this matter. It may be possible to argue that it is ambiguous... but it is right there in the text. That is as close to cannon as you can get.
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It didn't.

    If by mathematical balance you mean numbers of Force-users, that is easily disproven. While TPM and AOTC do not really give us any specific insight into the meaning of balance, by comparison ROTS explicitly links balance with the destruction of the Sith and contrasts it with the darkness in the Force:

    OBI-WAN: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

    OBI-WAN: It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness.

    They are real distinctions, as described during story meetings in preproduction of TESB and in sources such as the Annotated Screenplays ( not to mention early drafts of ANH ). This is further borne out by the PT plotline of the balance of the Force; in the script and novel of AOTC, Yoda discusses the growth of the dark side, while the same idea survived into the theatrical release in the form of his statement that "the dark side clouds everything".
     
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