Mary Can We Discuss Plot Points Yet? ***SPOILERS INSIDE***

I want to discuss some stuff from the movie, but i dont wanna spoil anybody, what is the rule on when we can start?

Edit: I added spoiler inside to the title of this thread just in case. But if you haven't seen this movie by now leave now, what the hell have you been waiting for!

 

You can discuss the movie now.

 

Dear Members:
My grain of sand to contribute to the plot of the movie.

1. Ambassador Caskassi returns to the planet (not yet determine) to inspect process of change of leaders.

2. Hoctumar is send to destroy the Jedi that came with the Ambassador to protect them.

3. A plot to kill the Ambassador is revealed

4. Hoctumar fights Geen Tobar in a real battle. Hoctumar ends mortally wounded, Geen ends with a bad injury in his arm... but survives.

5. Geen's Jedi Master (Any of the characters you had in mind) and the other Jedi Knight, engage in a battle to defend the Ambassador front Aassasin droind inside the Council Chamber (or someplace else).

6. Both Jedi, Master and Knight, learned about Geen's battle and injuries. A Sith Master is present.

7. Both of them battle the Sith Master....

And this is mi idea. Of course, it can be changed and altered. Like I said... is just an idea. I will be writing more about the fight scene for next week. Sorry for the suspense. Any help for my scene if it is selected feel free to email me. That way I can changed, add or take out.

Thanks for your help.
May the Force be with you... always.
Fipe Naz-Mero, JK
USA-NE REGION
CHARM CITY COUNCIL FAN FORUM
CALIFORNIA MD

 

To clear any confusion here, are we speaking of AotC plot points or the proposed fan flick?

 

I hope it's got to do with the fanfilm, cuz I'm completely lost by what he just posted....

 

Broadcastah's purpose in starting this thread was to discuss AOTC and speculate what certain things meant. I think Fipe misunderstood the purpose, what he posted is for the fanfilm.

 

Well BigBroadcasta, now that we have all that confusion cleared up, let fire with the discussions.

I guess my main interest centers around Qui-gon. It seemed we got a hint as to why he doesn't disappear (become one with the Force) when he dies in TPM. Did he do something to aid Count Dooku in the past that altered his fate? I don't think it was necessarily Sith-inspired but it would seem that it was indeed a step towards the Dark Side. And, if he did do something that would lead down the Dark Path, how was he able to continue his life in the Jedi Order? Was he redeemed somehow? I don't think that the EU will have answers for these and maybe I'm answering questions that can only be answered by Episode III. Or else they could have nbeen answered in the book, that I have not read yet.

My other question is: if Qui-gon does not become One with the Force, how was he able to "voice" his warning to Anakin from beyond? It would seem that only someone who has become One with the Force would have the ability to speak from the beyond.

Another subject: why is Yoda so careful to conceal his fighting abilities? I noticed in the movie when he appears before Dooku, he pays close attention to the fact that both Obi-Wan and Anakin were knocked out before confronting Dooku with his powers. He also seems to quickly disappear before they awaken so as not to make anyone aware of what he has done.

I'm sure I'll think of a few more as this discussion becomes more expanded.

 

Between what I've read of the book [so far] and the movie, I think the connection between Dooku & Qui-Gon is more along the lines that they were both frustrated by the rigidness of the Jedi heirarchy. Follow The Code. Follow The Code. It would seem that both were fed up with The Code because they felt (esp. Qui-Gon) that there are times when The Code should be 'bent' or even ignored if it is counter-productive.
I also sensed that Anakin also expressed their feelings about the Republic's government situation as well when he told Padme that "The system doesn't work". Also, Ki-Adi Mundi tells Padme that Dooku is a 'political idealist'. The idea that Anakin raises about 'somebody wise' should make things happen may have been what appealed to Dooku and explain his fall to Palpatine's influence.

As to Qui-Gon's being one with The Force, the book shows that Yoda is bewildered by Qui-Gon's voice in his meditation. Evidently no one has ever heard from an 'expired' Jedi before this! It also says that Anakin heard Qui-Gon as well, but his rage was too great to pay attention to the voice. Gotta tell ya, the book version of the Tusken slaughter is pretty intense IMHO. Think GL would've earned an easy PG-13 if he'd shown it all.

My curiosity also dwells on Master Sipho Dyas! Obi-Wan is under the impression that he died about or before the time the Kaminoans claim that the order for the clones was placed. I've found no further information on Sipho Dyas in the book thus far. The questions become:
1) If he did place the order, why? He didn't have the permission of the Jedi Council.
2) If he didn't, who did? Palpatine? 7 years prior to Ep I? Could he really see that far ahead?!
These bother me because the actual source of the army is not explained as far as I can tell, yet it is now the symbol of Palpatine's power.

BTW..., did I miss the announcement that Christopher Lee will be in Ep III? I admit I avoid spoilers, but now that we've seen he escapes...

Can you tell I've been busting to pose these questions/ideas?

 

My Theory is "Sipho Dyas is Palpatine." Dont ask me details cause i havent worked them out yet.

 

I think Sifo-Dyas is Qui-Gon! Yes, it's Qui-Gon!! You'll see!!! Qui-Gon I tell ya!! QUI-GON!!!!!!

 

?

Ooo!
Or...
Yoda was Sipho Dyas' padawan?!

Interesting lineage, here we have? Hmm?

Yoda's padawan, Dooku gets fidgety with the order, disappears, turns up later as an upstart seperatist (and a Darth )!

Dooku's padawan bucks the system, finds Anakin "you're going to be the death of me" Skywalker, who he insists be trained.
His padawan, Obi-Wan turns out okay, but inherits the 'albatross' Anakin into his care (Thanks Qui-Gon ).

Obi-Wan's padawan... Well, we all know where that's headed, dont' we.

They sure do know how to keep the big problems "in the family".

BTW, neither Sipho Dyas nor Dooku/Tyrannus are listed in the Ep II section of th official site's databank.

 

Ara-Gorn_Sirrah: BTW, neither Sipho Dyas nor Dooku/Tyrannus are listed in the Ep II section of th official site's databank.

That's because Qui-Gon erased them from the databanks!! Qui-Gon!!!

 

...Hey! Maybe he's r i g h t!

 

A lot of speculation in the movie forums is saying Sipho Dyas is Dooku, or Dooku posed as him to order the clones. After my fourth viewing today, I'm convinced Dooku has nothing to do with it. During the final battle on Geonosis, Dooku, while watching the battle unfold with the other Separatists on that table, is concerned with how the Jedi could have gotten an army so fast. When he makes the comment, he is completely surprised. So, Sidious is probably screwing Dooku over too, just as he did with the Neimodians.

 

At first I thought Sipho-Dyas was Palpatine/Sidious since the name sounds like a half-assed cognate of Sidious. Then I realized there was no refutation or denial he existed by any of the Jedi in the film. I figured it is more likely that S-D was knocked off by either Sith and then they used his name to place the order. I'm pretty sure that Dooku kinda knew what was up by the way he spoke to Sidious at the end. He may not have known all the details, but he had to have been on the basic scheme or else he would have probably been more pissed when he reached Coruscant. Dooku's apprehension is probably part of the ploy, acting for his "allies." What good is a grand deception if everyone is in on it (and it would make Jedi look inept, not snookered, otherwise). I have other ideas, but am too tired to post them now.

 

Sideous is definately NOT screwing over Dooku. Dooku knew of the army the whole time which is why he had to start the seperatist movement in the first place. If there were no seperatists then there would be no reason to have the clone army. Sideous sent Dooku out to seduce these members with the dark side in order to form this "rebellion" of the Republic. After the Clone Army takes out all of the seperatists, it will then turn on the Republic as a form of enforcement to "make them" do what Palpatine or Sideous wants...just as Anakin has forshadowed at the picnic date.

As far as the Qui Gon spirit stuff goes...According to the book (I've read the whole thing) the act that Anakin commits at the Tusken camp is so filled with hatred and rage that it sends a tremor through the force. One that "wakes" Qui Gon up and that is why you hear him yell. It's also the same tremor that Yoda picks up to state that he is sensing "pain and suffering". In the book it clearly states that it is Qui Gon reacting to Anakin's barage.

Those are my two cents!

 

This is very funny to read, those of us who are EU already know the answers to which you seek...ha!

 

"So certain, are you."

Care to share your source?

I thought I knew a thing or two about the development of the original Death Star from an EU book, but GL shot that down in a ball o' flame in Ep II.

For that matter, it has been proclaimed from On High (via Steve Sansweet) that if something isn't shown/spoken in the movies it isn't "canon" according to GL... Look at the RotJ novel; Ben says that Owen Lars was his brother!

 

<"So certain, are you."

Care to share your source?> JA & JQ books and the A Jedi's Journal ties in many of the books with the movie.

<I thought I knew a thing or two about the development of the original Death Star from an EU book, but GL shot that down in a ball o' flame in Ep II.> No, the answers are there, you just have to read more EU sources.

<For that matter, it has been proclaimed from On High (via Steve Sansweet) that if something isn't shown/spoken in the movies it isn't "canon" according to GL... Look at the RotJ novel; Ben says that Owen Lars was his brother!> Not true! Read the Lit threads about this matter in the Archives. Don't be swayed by what Purists think. **She waves her hand a la Jedi mind trick**

 

Greetings, my friends.

The issue of Owen and ObiWan being brothers is a most controversial one, and has been for quite a while. Yet I am puzzled by that, because GL obviously fixed this in AotC, and before you say," but wait, what about the OT novelization", hear me out, please. Consider the OT novelization for a moment, the scene where Obi Wan tells Luke about his true origins. Yes, he does mention his " brother " Owen, but there are many ways to be brothers without being blood relations. Maybe they became as close as brothers over the years , during the Purge and the Dark years after words. There are obviously many other possibilities, but I dont think this issue is that big to warrant such an in depth discussion. Also, lets keep in mind that ObiWan is the Master of speaking from A Certain Point of View.

As for the dissapearing Jedi bit, I was hoping GL would tell us all about this as we had originally heard he would, but at least we have some clues about it, albeit vague ones. In the novelization as Yoda hears Qui Gon's call from beyond the grave, it is specifically said that Yoda knows that this is definitely Qui Gon. He is most disturbed with this development but we are offered little insight, just vague images. My personal theory, taken from the reading and my own thinking on the subject, is that Anakin's rage and use of the Dark Side was so great that it threw the Force out of balance, if you will, if only temporarily. This may have been the reason that Qui Gon was essentially summoned from beyond, but obviously only GL knows the answer to that one...

 

As for the Death Star, the thing was a joint endiver by both the Genosians and Leminisk, problem solved.

Maybe he meant it as in a "hood" sense, like from the same planet or something. Whats up my brother...

 

Okay before I add some more fuel to this fire, I need to comment on the Owen/Obi-Wan brotherhood. I don't think it is possible that they were close brothers as Owen has a sincere resentment for Obi-Wan. Not only displayed in the movie, but in the novelization of ANH, it talks about how "Ben" several times attempted to contact and befriend Luke and Owen drove him away from the farmlands.

Okay, now for more fuel. We have now seen that both C-3PO and R2-D2 have been to the moisture farm on Tatooine prior to ANH. what happens before ANH that they have no recollection of the farm when they are sold to Luke and Owen? They aren't human, they are robots with computer brains that do not "forget" things. Its apparent that the 2 droids are in the custody of Amidala and are passed down to Leia, one way or another. So who would have their memorys erased?

And the Cypher-Dias issue. They say he was killed "almost ten years ago", which would put the order of the army chronologically around or just after TPM. My theory is that we take a look at those present on the Council during TPM versus AOTC and whoever is missing must be this Cypher Dias person. Note: when this name was first mentioned, I too thought it was some type of anagram or incarnation of Darth Sidious (example: Si-pher Dious???)

Also, from a conversation I had with Drk-Hlmt about Sidious and how I wanted him to be revealed as the Palpatine we all know he is. Drk-Hlmt said that GL may not as no one knows that Palpatine is a Sith until ROTJ. Well, I just had an epiphany, remembering something from the beginning of ROTJ. On Dagobah as Yoda is passing away, he warns Luke to not underestimate the powers of the Emperor. So Yoda has known throughout the OT that the Emperor was a Sith. So I guess in Episode III, Sidious would have to be revealed as Palpatine.

On another note, I had originally thought going into AOTC that the death of Anakin's mother would be the proverbial "last nail in the coffin" in terms of his surrender to the Dark Side. Now I wonder if it has to do with Padme, or maybe the Council expels him when they learn of his marriage to Padme (which in the TPM book is prophecized by Ani's admission to Padme of a dream he has about them being married). We already know that she has to die as she has no part in the OT, just the reflection in ROTJ by Leia about her images of her mother. So if the Council expels him, maybe Palpatine picks him up (Palpatine: "Anakin, you don't need guidance...") and turns him towards the Dark Side.

And isn't it part of the whole story that Anakin becomes Darth Vader and hunts down and detroys all of the Jedi (being the "most powerful" and the Chosen One)? If that is still the case why all the speculation about who kills Windu? Isn't it obvious?

 

This is my take on EPIII. No spoilers here, just pure speculation:

Anakin will probably be expelled by the council when they find out he is married to Padme. Palpatine will want Anakin close to him, so he takes Anakin as his personal bodyguard. Palpatine then starts to put things in Anakin's head like the council has become corrupt and is trying to tear apart his democracy. Palpatine then has Padme kidnapped and blames it on the council. Palpatine tells Anakin that the council wants him to return to them and will do whatever it takes to get him back, including killing his wife. Anakin then goes after the council and especially Obi-Wan, who Palpatine has pointed as the one who kidnapped Padme. Palpatine then probably tells Anakin that Padme has been killed and that Obi-Wan let her die. Anakin goes after Obi-Wan and they fight. Anakin sustains injuries and his rage toward Obi-Wan has made him give in to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan then finds Padme and rescues her only to find out she is pregnant and takes her to Alderaan. She gives birth to Luke and Leia there and Obi-Wan and Yoda decide that it is too dangerous for the children to be together so Yoda takes Luke to Dagobah and Leia stays on Alderaan with Padme. Bail Organa takes Leia as his daughter and Padme as either his wife or as a nursemaid. Obi-Wan then takes Luke from Yoda to be raised on Tatooine since he knows that Anakin would never return to that planet because of the bad memories there. He gives Luke to Owen and Beru and then goes into hiding. Luke grows up never knowing his mother and becomes the Jedi who saves his father. Leia becomes the senator of Alderaan and the glue that holds together the Alliance to help overthrow the evil Empire. The Empire that Palpatine created and the one who tried and ultimately succeeded in murdering her mother.


Another point could be that Anakin sees Padme die and blames Obi-Wan for her death and that is what pulls Anakin to the Dark Side.

 

As a correction to my post earlier, I've come to the conclusion that the Jedi Council would not so easily hasten to exile Anakin. Being that he is the potential "Chosen One", they would want to keep the closest tabs on him. Unless they decide to stick so close to the Jedi Code that they will not allow this marriage to stand, which in effect casts the Council's death wish.

So my point is: Exiling the one who has been labeled the "Chosen One", would be an unwise decision.

 

I think Anakin and Padme will try to keep the marriage secret. But Anakin will be away on a mission and something will happen to Padme. He'll want to go and save her (like he did for his mother, and wanted to do for Padme when she fell out of the Gunship). Obi-Wan will do that whole thing "if you leave you'll be expelled from the Jedi." Also, it'll be like Yoda telling Luke not to go help his friends in ESB. And Anakin will say he has to leave because Padme's his wife. And then Obi-Wan will let him leave but he'll be completely blown away by the announcement.