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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Can we talk about the vision?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Immortiss, Dec 19, 2015.

  1. beetzello

    beetzello Jedi Grand Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 17, 2002
    It could be a leftover from the editing process, accidentally left in... but if not, what would Pablo say about it? (I'm not on Twitter)
     
  2. oldadastra

    oldadastra Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2016

    Man, I kind of wish people would just leave poor Pablo alone, especially when it comes to questions that might be answered in VIII and IX (and extra especially when it comes to ridiculous stuff like he's been fielding in the last few days). I love speculating about this stuff, but I find I actually like to preserve a little mystery, too. :)

    Still, I see you are an old hand here, so maybe this is the kind of question he might respond to. I have a twitter account and occasionally follow Pablo's tweets, but I don't like to approach the oracle myself.
     
  3. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017
    Posted this in the wrong area previously so I'll try it again.

    I think up to this point many have been viewing the Force visions as a chain of events as viewed by one entity... what if it isn't... what if it's actually two separate chain of events and what if it's told by the Cosmic Force? FYI at the very bottom I have the TL;DR summation in case you just aren't interested in reading all the finer details that follow.

    I theorize that the first half of Rey's vision isn't about her at all, it's about Luke's pathway to bringing about Balanced Force. The second half of the vision is about Rey's pathway to bringing about Balanced Force. In both visions we see a character traumatized by some family dynamic (for Luke it was learning who his father was, for Rey it was watching her caretakers go). The Cosmic Force is showing the experiences that shape 2 particular characters that ultimately lead to them meeting and attempting to bring balance to the Force.

    Now, why is the vision from the Cloud City battle important for Luke? I surmise that this is his first instance Luke has considered something other than a simple binary concept of the Force. Up to this point Luke doesn't consider the possibility that a person on the Dark Side could be anything but dark. The moment he knows that Vader is his father his perspective changes. We go into RoTJ with Luke KNOWING there was still good in him. Luke is open to learning NEW things about force beyond what he thought he knew. (This is important) Luke's not around to see how dogmatic the Jedi were in the PT, his only connection to the Jedi is through a very old Obi Wan and Yoda who simply don't have time to indoctrinate him into the Jedi ways as would be done if he had been trained as a youngling(this is also important).

    We have the advantage as the audience to know that those taught simply to use the Force (even in pursuit of Light Side ideas) are:

    1. always susceptible to temptation to opposite of their philosophy (i.e. what they call dark)
    2. still only just using the Force, not communing with it like an entity

    Luke learns this the hard way. Recall, after the demise of the Emperor and the Sith, Luke seeks to re-establish the Jedi Order, but he's doing it based on what he was taught (because... why wouldn't he?). And this blind spot quite literally results in Luke replicating almost all Obi Wan's path in the PT. Right down to Luke unwittingly serving as mentor to someone who would slaughter other Jedi in a bid for greater power promised by a dark manipulative master who wields a planetary killing system. Luke has become Obi Wan, Kylo has become Anakin. And that's why Rey sees of Kylo and Luke in this part of the vision. These are the first steps leading Luke on the pathway to finding the truth about Balanced Force.

    Enter Rey.

    And enter more parallels. Luke (the former Obi Wan student) finds redemption for Vader (the failed Obi Wan student). Rey (the Luke Skywalker student) may potentially find redemption for Kylo (the failed Luke Skywalker student). Of course some the parallels we may want to avoid. (Recall: Obi Wan dies at the hand of his former student, will Luke die at the hands of his former student? They did say Episode 8 was dark). But what about the images from the vision? How do they connect with Luke's?

    Rey's childhood trauma starts her on a path of waiting for her caretakers. Though both Luke and Rey start on desert planets some things are different, Luke can't wait to get off of Tatooine because there's nothing there for him, Rey refuses to leave Jakku because she thinks everything she wants is coming there. However, it is because of this desire for her "belonging" that she stayed put so that she was in place to begin a journey that would lead to Luke.

    Imagine the odds against one particular Storm Trooper having a moral epiphany when and where he does. Imagine further that on the same planet and mission that the galaxy's most capable pilot is taken hostage and thus made accessible to said Storm Trooper so that he could escape. Imagine that Storm Trooper shoots just well enough to help you escape Jakku another particular ship. Imagine that particular ship belongs to a former General of the Republic who is looking for it. Imagine that former General happens to be married to the sister of the last Jedi. What are the odds?

    We see Rey's vision end with a premonition about SKB preparing to fire and that she would confront Kylo, all things that put her on the path to finding Luke. Without the confrontation and ultimate destruction of SKB, she never finds Luke. These are her first steps to becoming the first Student of Balanced Force.

    I am speculating that the Cosmic Force has reached a critical mass where it actually acts on it's own behalf (directly and indirectly). I'm not the first person to suggest the Force has conscious, I just combine this idea with the Force taking action including communicating this vision to Rey. If the Force can awaken, then it (or its agents) can take other action as well. And maybe it's why neither the Sith or Jedi philosophy ultimately work because they see the Force as a "great expansive thing" instead of a "sentient entity". It's not just a river you should feel flowing around you, but that you should know that the river itself is alive and sentient... at least that's my theory.

    And perhaps this explains some other peculiar things we saw in TFA. Maybe that's what Kylo felt around Finn on Jakku, not Finn necessarily being FS at that moment, but the Force working to putting odd defying events in place to result in Rey finding Luke (I know people will hate this part because it seems to strip Finn of moral and physical agency, but I'm really only talking about Finn having the logistics available to escape. Finn still could have felt the Force and independently decided that what the FO was doing wasn't right). But if the Force can take action, maybe this is why Rey learns the mind trick so quickly, the Force is helping her. Maybe this is why Phasma shuts down the shields without much provocation, the Force is helping Finn. Maybe this is why Han was able to no-look shoot a Storm Trooper on Takadonna, the Force was helping him. Maybe this is why Finn was able to hold off Kylo without overtly showing Force Sensitivity long enough for Rey to awake and why Rey is able to overpower a trained Force warrior (injured albeit), The Force was helping them. The Force is influencing events and people to ultimately bring the one person who is ready to teach the "New" concept of Force balance (Luke), in contact with the one person who is ready to learn it (Rey)

    TL;DR
    • Force is Sentient decision maker influencing events and actions and aiding individuals in their journeys that in turn help bring out about balance in Force
    • Luke has repeated Obi Wan's arc as failed teacher taking one last pupil to try to make things right
    • Force Vision is actual 2 separate visions, one of Luke, and one of Rey which show their pathways to seeking balanced Force
    What do you all think? How many holes does this theory have? Could it hold water?​

     
  4. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Yes.
     
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  5. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017

    LOL, thanks
     
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  6. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Sorry. To clarify, I was just responding to the question asked in the thread title. :)
     
  7. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Oh, sure, we can talk as much as you want !

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    Yeah that whole scene was weird. I know she is really strong in the force but why does Luke's saber make her flip out like that? I guess Ep8 will tell us.

    And the guy could be a Temple Guard. Doesn't appear to be a Jedi
     
  9. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I think the light saber is the key. Some kind of power/secret is hidden in the crystals which will be revealed in Episode 8. I think this explains how badly Kylo Ren wanted the light saber.
     
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  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Rogue One confirms the scarcity of the key component of lightsabers being caused by the Empire stealing them for their superweapons. I'd be surprised if this is only ever to be a footnote and not a factor in future plotlines.
     
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  11. Hopeless

    Hopeless Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2006
    I've been wondering if Holocrons are built using Kyber crystals to store information?

    So how many lightsabers have been found that have the kind of history as Anakin's?

    Its entirely possible Obi-Wan was able to use Anakin's saber as a way of communicating with Luke until he lost it.

    Following the end of ESB has there been any canon (well Disney canon) appearances of Obi-Wan's force ghost?

    So Rey picks up the lightsaber connects with it in a way the previous wielders haven't been able to that's why she gets those visions I'm assuming we see its past and then hers as both get to know each other so this literally shows her bonding with it and naturally scares the heck out of her!
    No wonder she runs off imagine picking up a sentient weapon and being greeted!

    That's why when she and Kylo vie for the saber it immediately chooses her it would be interesting to see what would happen had Kylo been given time to pick it up whether he could override the bond with Rey but so far nope!

    I like the idea that Kylo may have found Obi-Wan's lightsaber and shared her force vision with her being somehow related to Obi-Wan as he is related to Anakin.

    By related I mean not necessarily a blood descendant since she could easily be the child of a great niece of Obi-Wan imagine if that was Captain Phasma and her folding so easily was to coax them to rescue her daughter without alerting her superiors to that little detail?!
     
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  12. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    Hopeless I like that theory of obi Wan communicating with Luke through the lightsaber!
     
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  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Oh yeah, gimme those sweet Holocrons !

    My dream is that Snoke lets Kylo enter an ancient Sith temple, where thousands of Holocrons are stored. Then after Snoke teaches him how he can absorb the knowledge in those Holocrons, Kylo kills Snoke and then absorbs ALL holocrons, becoming extremelly powerful in the Dark Side.

    Then only the combined powers of Luke and Rey, together with a massive air strike led by Poe, are able to destroy Kylo.
     
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  14. forever_jedi

    forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Ummm... of COURSE there has! Obi-Wan appears before Luke on Dagobah and has a long conversation about "a certain point of view." It's a very memorable bit of SW canon![face_dunno]Also, at the end of RotJ, there is Obi-Wan again, with Yoda and Anakin, overseeing celebrations.

    I personally think the lightsaber was a pure Force object, a medium through which Obi-Wan was trying to communicate with Rey in TFA. Like a Force phone of sorts. It must have been difficult to chat with Rey, who was not conscious of the Force before then. I believe, Obi-Wan wanted her to go find Luke ASAP - why, will be revealed in TLJ. So through the saber, he gives her a quick crash course of Luke's history from the time he lost his hand, then how the saber got lost (Kylo Ren and the clan) and how she herself got stranded on Jakku.
     
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  15. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Will he pull another one of those certain points of view when she finds out he's her grandpa? ;)
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Binary sunset hermit

    Binary sunset hermit Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Apologies if this theory has already been said.

    I think the vision is channelled through the eyes of Luke to Rey via the lightsaber. So we are seeing things from Lukes perspective, while he is guiding Rey through all the things that have happened to him. I.e. Fight with vader, knights of ren, R2 in the temple ruins and most of all Leaving a young Rey in Jakku.

    This making me think that Rey is one of the last Jedi younglings from Luke's temple. (maybe a reason why she got a little excited when she heard his name from Han Solo).

    My thought on Obi wans voice in this vision, is that Luke was already in contact with Obi wans Ghost and this channelling is being done under the guidance of Obi wan and maybe others.
     
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  18. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    I think the vision confirms that Rey is a Skywalker, which is why she had such a strong reaction to the lightsaber. The Star Wars saga is the story of the Skywalker family, and what Jedi has had the most influence on the Skywalker family? Obi-Wan. As both a trainer and a mentor, which is why we heard his voice in the vision. Obi-Wan's voice in the vision is not to imply any relation of him to Rey, but because he's had such a huge impact on the Skywalkers.
     
  19. Raz Zaphon

    Raz Zaphon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 9, 2000
    It absolutely does not confirm anything of the sort. It may be your personal interpretation that this sequences alludes to a familial connection between Rey and Luke. But to say it "confirms" it is just not on.
     
  20. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Which is I prefaced my entire comment with, "I Think". Meaning that it's my view on the matter. My own personal opinion. In other words My Thoughts on the vision. I did not say it is absolutely what it means. I did not say you have to agree with my comment. And in no way did I even remotely imply that my thoughts were to be accepted as a proven fact. Next time learn to comprehend the words you're reading before you spout off at someone's viewpoint. Thanks for playing, junior.
     
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  21. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    The Jedi Philosophy "worked" for a thousand years/generations. Just because the Jedi were wiped out in the PT doesn't mean their entire philosophy was wrong. People don't always make perfect decisions, both in life and the movies. The Jedi just got outplayed by the Sith, and later vice-versa. In fact, the Sith won in the PT and the Jedi won in the OT because they both played on each others' weaknesses.

    As to the Jedi not seeing the Force as a "sentient entity"...

    QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

    ANAKIN : They do??

    QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to you.

    --------------------------

    YODA
    Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength
    flows from the Force. But beware
    of the dark side. Anger... fear...
    aggression. The dark side of
    the Force are they.

    ----------------------------

    YODA
    And well you should not. For my
    ally is the Force.

    Seems to me a "sentient entity" could speak to you, have feelings such as anger, and would be an ally.

    That said, whether or not the Sith saw the Force as sentient wouldn't have made a difference, because they didn't care about the Will of the Force.
     
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  22. rayjefury

    rayjefury Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2017

    It's a matter of interpretation that the Jedi Philosophy worked for a thousand years. During those thousands of years countless Jedi have fallen to darkness, and the Jedi kept getting purged to near extinction by Darkside users, Order 66 wasn't the only massacre.
    Qui Gon was talking about the midi-chlorians.
    Yoda said anger, fear, and aggression were attributes associated with the dark side, not that the dark side of the force literally was angry, afraid, and aggressive
    A non sentient item can still be an ally
    The Force has been portrayed as living but not as sentient
     
  23. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    Once again......no one EVER accused the Jedi of being perfect....because that would be impossible. That "countless Jedi" fell to the Dark Side isn't necessarily a fault of their beliefs about the nature of the Force - it could simply be that they gave into their fears.

    Otherwise, we would have films where an individual becomes a Jedi, and then they make no mistakes whatsoever. That would make for very boring films with unrealistic characters. You must remember that the characters in these films follow the classic Hero's Journey in regards to fighting their own doubts and temptations and the choices each individual must make, much like everyday folk in our galaxy, for which Star Wars is a metaphor. Your expectations fall well outside the purview of these films.

    "They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

    The Force has a will. It tells the user what it wants the user to do. How is that not sentience?

    "The dark side of the Force are they." - Yoda

    "it should be the real villain of the story" - Annotated Screenplays

    You are splitting a hair that the films do not.

    Not so.

    ANH: HAN
    Kid, I've flown from one side of
    this galaxy to the other. I've seen
    a lot of strange stuff, but I've
    never seen anything to make me believe
    there's one all-powerful force
    controlling everything. There's no
    mystical energy field that controls
    my destiny.

    Ben smiles quietly.

    TFA: Han
    I used to wonder that myself. Thought
    it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo --
    magical power holding together good,
    evil, the dark side and the light.
    (beat)
    'Crazy thing is, it's true. The
    Force, the Jedi, all of it. It's
    all true.


    Kinda hard for the Force to control ones destiny if it's not sentient, constantly nudging Luke in the right direction in order to serve its will.
     
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  24. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    if the force is sentient why does it let other people use it
     
  25. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 30, 2002
    LUKE
    You mean it controls your actions?

    BEN
    Partially. But it also obeys your
    commands.


    That the Force is sentient doesn't mean it can't be controlled. This is why it created Anakin in the first place, to do that which it could not - defeat the Sith.