PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

I'll try to express how I feel about AOTC.

I'm often harsh on this film because it is my least favourite of the six by a fair margin.

TPM, which I hold quite high personally, is often compared to AOTC (they are clearly the least popular two), AOTC being claimed to be an improvement, which I don't see myself. TPM was obviously more of an initial disappointment to the fanbase who were expecting something more similar to the OT (I actually prefer that it does it's own thing, but that is perhaps off-topic), and AOTC arguably finally showed an Anakin closer to what you would expect from what you have heard of him in the other films; a Padawan developing considerable strength in the force, having more control over his own destiny than the relatively helpless nine-year-old Anakin, conflicted and with a darker side, some hints at the beginning of the schism between Anakin and his Jedi family, and some display of his passionate nature regarding people and his ideals. Plus, the beginning of the war, the continuation of Palpatine's rise to power, more of the Jedi Order at the height of the Republic, and a general sense of foreboding as the darkside grows in strength.

But with the release of ROTS, I think most fans were finally satisfied at seeing Anakin in his prime, the Jedi Knight that had been reminisced about in the OT. IMO Phantom Menace became a more symbolic and welcome beginning now that we knew precisely where it was going (and to me seems more sincerely a film Lucas wanted to make), but AOTC, to put it bluntly started to look more like a watered-down version of ROTS. For me at least, while (I think intentionally) reminding me of my childhood, TPM has aged well retrospectively, and enhances the saga in ways that AOTC mostly falls short of. AOTC (maybe intentionally) lacks the grounding force of Qui-Gon as a central character, Palpatine only appearing as "Sidious" in one scene is kind of underwhelming, and IMO even the lightsaber duels are weak compared to the rest of the series. I remember being excited that Yoda fought Dooku in 2002, but that feels more like a warmup to face Sidious in the next film now.

The dialogue is hit and miss, although not nearly as bad as some make out. While the "traditional" characterisation is weaker than the OT (and Revenge of the Sith IMO), there is a fair amount of subtext, and many exchanges that draw on the viewer to make multiple viewings before the significance is clear. Some examples that instantly spring to mind...
- "I will not allow this Republic, that has stood for a thousand years, to be split in two." is classic pov truth from Palpatine - after starting the war that splits the Republic, he indeed "unites" everyone under an oppressive Empire.
- When discussing his dreams of his mother with Obi-Wan, Anakin obliviously remarks "I'd much rather dream about Padme." which is of course ironically what dooms him in the next film.
- "The shroud of the darkside has fallen. Begun the Clone War has." Yoda states this when the shroud is growing stronger than ever - the Sith Master is leading their side!
- "Not again. Obi-Wan is going to kill me."


I love the implication that the Jedi learn from their mistakes in the PT. Yoda and Obi-Wan seem more in-line with Qui-Gon's philosophy in the original films.
- Obi-Wan's mentoring of Anakin contrasts what Luke will learn in the OT - "Patience, use the force, think." vs Qui-Gon's - "Feel, don't think".
- Anakin (seemingly to Obi-Wan's comment "You will pay attention to my lead") - "Why?" vs Yoda (to Luke) - "There is no why!"
- Anakin - "I try, Master." vs Yoda (to Luke) "Do or do not. There is no try."
- "This weapon is your life!" vs "Your weapons, you will not need them."


Visually the movie has some great moments, particularly...
- Scenes on Naboo; the architecture, lakes, fields and waterfalls.
- Coruscant at night is moody, and chaotic. It nicely contrasts the later serene setting of Anakin meditating at the Naboo retreat, the clouds he faces forming a ying and yang, placed at the central chapter of the film on the DVD. (Plus, regarding Coruscant I think the Jedi being centred at the Republic core is a significant symbolic decision by Lucas).
- I love the inverted unique pan-up at the beginning of the film, and the uncertainty of the cloudy sky. The "Star Wars Ring Theory" essay (give it a read if you haven't already) noted Ep2 begins in the clouds, where Ep5 ends in the clouds, and a lot of other noteworthy links between the middle movies of each trilogy. Lucas cleverly parallels Luke's and Anakin's journeys in each trilogy; similarities, yet with tweaks that send them in the opposite directions.
- Anakin's search for his mother, with the giant stone arches and the general look of the Tusken camp from the clifftop.
- Coruscant at dusk as Dooku arrives at the end of the film. Hinting that the Sith are closer to the good guys than they realise.


Not my observation, and I might not explain it that well, but AOTC feels considerably more "dream-like" than other installments. The warm visual tones, the feel that there is more to what we are seeing than meets the eye, the quite literal significance of Anakin's dreams themself ("Dreams pass in time..."), the mysterious nature of the film, the atmospheric clouds in the opening scene.


The romance is arguably poorly executed, but part of the fact that fans look at the Han/Leia relationship more favourably stems from the romance being less integral to the plot in the OT. Don't get me wrong, Han and Leia do have more chemistry, but I can understand the tragic element Lucas was going for in the PT. Some of the weak writing and acting hinders that impact (I find them more believable in ROTS, but AOTC unfortunately establishes so much of this relationship). Some things I liked about the romance;
- Anakin channeling Qui-Gon with the loophole that "Compassion... central to a Jedi's life. So you might say, we are encouraged to love."
- As others have noted, Anakin backs off when Padme refuses to get involved (in the fireplace scene) and only continues to pursue Padme when Padme initiates it, thinking they are about to die. I don't like Hayden's acting in the scene, but the moment they kiss and are brought out into the arena to be executed is a meaningful metaphor for us as the "audience" watching their tragedy unfold.
- Some subtler moments between the two, such as Anakin holding Padme's hand as she steps down from the transport at Watto's, and their embrace before Anakin sets out to search for Shmi.
- The wedding at the end is so depressing, with the foreboding moment Anakin holds Padme's hand with his mechanical hand.


Tatooine is my favourite section of the film. Shmi's death and Anakin's reaction are one of the most emotional arcs in the six current films. They nailed the scene at the Tusken camp IMO. The growing tension earlier as Anakin is told about Shmi's disappearance, his search across Tatooine, and the aftermath when he confesses to Padme, are all well done.


The biggest flaw of the film for me is the characterisation. It's kind of all over the place IMO. Yoda doesn't seem like himself, and Anakin and Padme could have benefited from a partial rewrite, particularly Padme lost a lot of fairly crucial scenes in production. I understand the characters motivations, but the execution is a little stilted.
There are also clear plotholes in this film more than others (the Jedi not suspecting the Clone army's origins for example).
It is of course very subjective, and I'm sure there are elements of the film that are lost on me.

 

I'm almost on the same position as you, except that I had many difficulties with this movie not because of its intellectual side, but because of what I saw and learned on this movie, and, unlike you, I've watched this movie only once, and it was almost....... 10 years ago and I never saw it again on DVD or Blu-Ray, in contrast to Revenge of Sith and the Original Trilogy which I've watched 4 to 5 times on DVD or on theaters.

Part of the problems that I had with Attack of the Clones was because I've watched Revenge of the Sith before watching Episode 2, and some of the ideas that I had on my head about the back story and the important elements hinted in Revenge of the Sith were demolished after watching this movie, like:

• The friendship between Palpatine and Anakin which has never been obviously exposed;
• The friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Anakin was acting like a spoiled teenager with Obi-Wan in Attack of the Clones while in Revenge of the Sith, their bond felt very strong;
• The romance between Anakin and Padme..... Now, some people may think that I'm scratching the bottom of the barrel here, but in Revenge of the Sith, I felt that the romance was more natural while in Attack of the Clones, there were many things I've found wrong;
• After watching Revenge of the Sith, I was expecting that Dooku would occupy a large part of the movie and its reveal on the second half of the movie, almost at the end of it when we learn that he's a Sith Lord, made me disappointed because I was expecting that many important elements about the Clone Wars and its origins would be exposed on this movie;
• The Clone Wars animated series didn't help me either to appreciate even more Attack of the Clones since I've learned more interesting things on this series than the movie, things, I think, that should have been on the movie rather than on this series.

Now, I do not horribly dislike this movie. There are still aspects that I liked about it like the discovery of the Clone Army and the scenes on Kamino. But because of the problems I've encountered on this movie, it left me with a bad taste and it partially destroyed many of the things I loved about Revenge of the Sith before watching Attack of the Clones. The gap between those two movie is too important. And also, because of that, I think that The Phantom Menace was a more enjoyable experience and a better movie than Attack of the Clones. But part of the reasons why I've appreciated The Phantom Menace more than Attack of the Clones is because I didn't have any expectations towards Episode 1 unlike Episode 2 since Revenge of the Sith was the first Star Wars movie I ever saw.

Now, I'm also wondering if I should skip Episodes 1 & 2 when doing a Star Wars marathon before the release of Episode 7 and start immediately with Revenge of the Sith. The reason of that is because I'm a little afraid that, now that I'm a 25 years old adult and I've become a little bit more critical and cynical than when I was a teenager, the viewing of Attack of the Clones for the second time after all these years, may deepen the poor experience that I had with this movie and even destroy the appreciation that I had for Revenge of the Sith, even if I might be viewing it with fresh eyes after all these years.

Right now, I'm thinking of a better way to view these movies without ruining the experience. It is viewing the movies in their chronological order with some of the important and key episodes of The Clone Wars series between Episodes 2 and 3. But even so, I still have a bad feeling about watching once again Attack of the Clones.

But, I'm also asking to all of you: is their anything else to appreciate about Attack of the Clones that may elevate my esteem towards this movie?

 

Padme: Please don't look at me like that.
Anakin: Why not?
Padme: Because it makes me feel uncomfortable.
Anakin: Sorry my lady.



Princess Leia: Let go, please.
Han Solo: Don't get excited.
Princess Leia: Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited.
Han Solo: Sorry sweetheart. I haven't got time for anything else.


Does this assist in some way?

MJ

 

Hahahaha! I've never thought about that!

Thanks for the precision!

But also, is there anything else? What do you guys like about this movie? I'm just asking this because there may be things that I haven't noticed in this movie that I may like it.

 

The music is great. Defintitely the most... lyrical soundtrack.

(Is lyrical the right word?)

 

It doesn't have to be that way, though. When I was 16, AOTC was by far my least favourite Prequel film. Nowadays - I'm also 25 years old - it might even be my favourite Star Wars film deep down. Things change, but sometimes also for the better.

Reading this, I think you should stop lamenting the things that aren't in AOTC and enjoy the things that are there. The relationship between Palpatine and Anakin was never pushed very far in AOTC, right, but you clearly see Palpatine unfolding his influence on Anakin very much in the way it must have happened with Dooku through dialogue and other things in the movie (Palpatine: I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda. || Anakin: Someday I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. || Dooku: I’ve become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you [Yoda].). The friendship between Anakin and Obi-Wan is a strained one and they are at each other's throats at times, right, but I've never understood how people couldn't enjoy their warm bantering during the Speeder Chase? The romance is its own thing and I might not convert you here (might want to visit my blog?11), but at least you get to see the characters struggling with their own lifes and what the choices they have to make mean.

There are many, many things that can be enjoyed about AOTC.

What about the Tatooine Section of the movie, for example? Seriously, that's my favourite part of all Star Wars. The first time at the Homestead, Anakin walking like Vader, Cliegg Lars' dark tale of abduction, Anakin's pain, Padmé's compassion, Vader's shadow, the hug, Anakin's search, the Tusken Camp, Anakin's rage and the cut to Yoda, Anakin's return met by devastated looks, his breakdown in the garage, the camera tilting down from the blue sky to the graves and the mourners, Anakin's promise.

What about Palpatine playing both sides without doing much himself? What about Dooku and his wonderful scene with a captive Obi-Wan? What about the Clone Mystery and all the questions that it raises? What about Padmé's costumes? What about the Nighclub Scene which was made look like Anakin is being trailed while it was acutally Obi-Wan who was at danger? What about the Ending Montage, which is truly brilliant imo? What about the planetary diversity? The music? The overall imagery? The pan-up at the beginning?

You should probably just watch it with an open heart and mind, pretending you haven't seen ROTS yet.

I, for instance, used to really dislike the Droid Factory until I started to think: Why, exactly?
What makes it - supposedly - so much worse than the Planet Core Sequence in TPM or the Trash Compactor Scene in ANH or the Speeder Chase in ROTJ? Because it's CGI? That's not a reason, imo, so I've started to appeciate the little hints of forshadowing (Anakin's arm being mechanized; Anakin trying and failing first at "saving" Padmé etc.), the suble commentary ("Maschines making maschines. How perverse!" - now what about the Clones on Kamino?) and overall escapist spectacle.

 

At Kamino, when Obi Wan is taken on a tour of the facilities, despite all the talk, did you notice all the other little things going around? If you have your DVD, check it out again. Did you see the kid clone kicking something from the floor? How about the 5 year old clone (human years 13) realizing he's made and mistake and he hold his head? Take a good look around there's so much going on. What about the Rotanda style training facilties. Doesn't it remind you of the Senate? The former is creating clones, the latter are creating rules. I could go on, but I don't want to go too far ahead. There's a lot to take in.

MJ

 

1) AOTC is my least favorite addition to the Star Wars saga.

2) But I love Hayden in the film.

3) And it has my absolute favorite stretch of filmmaking in the entire saga in the Tatooine sequence where Anakin attempts to save Shmi.

That Red Letter Media guy can shove it. The filmmaking in that section of Clones is on par with anything else in the saga. That look on Anakin's face as he carries his mother's body back to the homestead - gah! Awesome.

The brilliance of Lucas' storytelling craft is in creating story beats that propel characters into new stages of growth. I love how in this film Anakin follows Padme to her home planet (REALLY wish Lucas had left in the scene at her home - everything about it is perfect and sells the attraction that Padme has for Anakin very well), and then Padme follows Anakin to his home planet. Both for different reasons, and yet by doing so they learn more about each other than they ever would through mere conversations on Coruscant. There's a really beautiful elegance to that type of story structure that doesn't get nearly enough credit.

But back on the other hand, the final battle is definitely my least favorite in all six films. I've mentioned it here before, but every final duel in a Star Wars movie is thematic and epic in an elevated and spiritual sort of way. Not so much in this movie. The hangar is a really lame location IMO and aside from Anakin taking on Dooku alone and the lighting in that section, it just doesn't even sniff the depth in the Duel of the Fates battle in the Naboo Palace reactor, or the Obi-Wan/Vader fight on the Death Star. This has nothing to do with CG Yoda fighting Dooku, it's really about the location and how it lends nothing to the thematics.

Also not a fan of George's first full use of his new digital camera. I'm ALL ABOUT digital filmmaking, but AOTC does lose some classically cinematic texture because of it. Scenes that should pop more tonally just fall flat, like the Coruscant club. Also, Obi-Wan's re-shoots beard is atrocious and unfortunately very distracting. Why George, why!? As a fan of the Special Editions I really wish George woulda gone back and somehow fixed that beard. It's the worst.

There's a lot to like in AOTC, but a lot to not like imo. Definitely the last on my list, but I do find a good portion of it engaging and compelling.

For the record, here's my list:

1) A New Hope
2) The Empire Strikes Back
3) Revenge of the Sith
4) The Phantom Menace
5) Return of the Jedi
6) Attack of the Clones

 

AOTC rules and i didn't even know it was hated by 'fans' of star wars until i come here

 

I also always thought this, but recently I noticed something. When Obi Wan tell Yoda and Mace about Sifo Dyas there is a look from Yoda, one which I interpreted as familiarity. It doesn't surprise him. From that I deduce that Sifo Dyas had been a proponent for an army before he was killed, and the Jedi Council were aware of it. This makes sense in lieu of the commerce guilds having armies of their own and using them to subdue innocent systems. This also explains Dooku's fall. Some Jedi had strong misgivings about the state of affairs in the galaxy.

 

Interesting take, but Yoda does state soon after "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

Going from what others have said here, there seems to be conflicting sources on whether Sifo Dyas actually ordered the army or if it was just a alibi for Sidious. I like the idea that Sifo Dyas ordered the army then Dooku killed him and stole it, which can still work even if the Council didn't know about the army. I definitely agree on the origins of Dooku's fall and the idea of the Jedi's misgivings about the Republic.

 

I've always hated the EU explanation and non-cinematic explanation for Sifo Dyas.

If you have a mysterious Jedi who's name sounds too similar to the main villain, Sidious, and he's ordering a clone army that Sidious wants, it makes the story so much more convoluted and hard to follow when you make it a different character who you never see and completely ignore in the third movie.

One of the biggest plot failures of the PT.

 

He was blind to sensing it, but wasn't surprised once learning about it. This to me explains why the Jedi chose to use the army. If they thought the bad guys ordered it why would they use it? Having them think Sifo Dyas did it is the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

Yeah this is the best post I've seen here on this issue! I saw AOTC 54 times in theaters so safe to say more than anyone here (not to be cocky, but... It's a safe bet). When it came out, everyone here was saying it was truly a FAN's Star Wars movie and everything TPM was not blah blah etc. Those were the TPM haters at least. The film got so much applause in theaters I couldn't believe it. Yoda fighting, R2 several times, a bunch of lines, etc. Everyone really seemed to love this movie. Then suddenly it seems like a ton of fans (still IMO a vocal minority) say it's a horrible pile of poo and shows what an awful filmmaker Lucas is. That really confuses me as it is a complete departure from the reality of when everyone actually watched the movie. It's like they forgot.

It was only here on this forum in the last month I learned that anyone let alone many people had issues with the droid factory scene. I love that scene!! It rocks. I love everything about AOTC and the mystery of the film and how it all plays out. It's so much fun to watch I would go so far as to call it THE most rewatchable Star Wars film although for me TPM is close (saw it 50 times in theaters). By contrast I love ROTS and usually vote for it as my favorite but it's the least rewatchable because it's so darn depressing even though it's a masterpiece.

Ah well, as you said, it's just depressing to see so much negativity but I will stand up on that hill with you and defend AOTC haha.

 

I watched TPM and ROTS this past week but when it came to AOTC I just couldn't get through it. To me, it's just a very poor, bad film, not just for Star Wars but in general as a sci-fi/fantasy movie.

 

Yeah, it's funny. AOTC was considered by many better than TPM almost 15 years ago. Now many consider TPM better and AOTC is considered the weakest.

It reminds me of ESB. Many didn't like ESB when it came out, the darker and cliffhanger. Now many go on and on about how it's the greatest film of all time.

I wonder what the "consensus" will be in 15 years from now?

 

I don't see AOTC having the renaissance ESB had, nor do I see the prequels getting the appreciation they deserve. For whatever reason the hate for them still burns strong. Maybe I'm wrong, though. Maybe after 5 spin off films and a whole new trilogy the prequels will be seen in a fonder light. People think Lucas was purely driven by profit, but if that were the case he would have been doing exactly what Disney is starting to do for the last 30 somewhat years...but Lucas only made 6 Star Wars films. Disney will hit that mark in a decade. I see it, but I know many fans do not. Star Wars is about to become something cheap and unremarkable. A Star Wars film is now an event, but it will soon be little more than a summer formality. I have little hope for *sigh* The Force Awakens and its cringey market research title. I don't care how many practical effects this film has or that it's shot on god's gift to man: film. It's going to be more fake/plastic than anything in the prequels. It will be a clone of a clone...just a watered down nostalgia trip. It's akin to Fifty Shades of Grey how it started off as Twilight fan fiction and then became a major hit. Episode 7 is just glorified fan fiction and will be complacently mediocre, which is far worse than being simply bad.

 

I might've just been me, but I know that in 2002 I definitely preferred The Phantom Menace. But I do see what you mean, critically things did originally swing in favor of AOTC whereas now I think they're on a level playing field.

The real question is: which will be seen as the best in twenty years? My bet is still in for ROTS, but it wouldn't surprise me if things end up swinging in favor of TPM.

 

I just rewatched Attack of the Clones last week, I still like it, even if I grumbled my way through the romance and the overly awkward dialogue. Once we got to Tatooine I enjoyed it again, the sound design in Obi-Wan VS. Jango Fett's Slave I is amazing and I'd forgotten how great the sound design is.

 

Agreed on what you stated about the sound design. Sure, the romance between Anakin and Padme was not deemed epic, even Han and Leia's was not too. However, we can still enjoy the prequels for Ewan McGregor as Obi Wan, similar to Mark's role as Luke Skywalker back in the old days.

 

TPM which is by far considered to be not that great (despite the billion dollar world wide boxoffice draw) is way better than AOTC.

I love the AOTC movie novelization since if had a bit more of the Mace/Jango fight, Obi-Jango gift and a small allusion to space battle.

The movie focused too much on the love relationship, short time frame so that they could have more showings, and bad cuts and edits. This movie needed to be a bit like the Two Towers which were a far more successful movie internationally than AOTC. Some stories need the extra time to tell certain things and this movie needed an extra 30 minutes at the end. It is sad that I had to find out about a jedi starfighter by playing a stupid video game, and could never accept how can a planet full to trade federation ships would just simply allow those acclimators to just land? There had to be some exchange, and it bothers me that the outer space battle would have to wait to ROTS and TCW cartoon series. This was unacceptable to me. The Droid Control Ship scene that was cut was also another one that when you look at the cut and edits it is consistent with the jerky Clone Wars battles cuts at the end.
Sorry gang, this movie to me is the worst in the prequel trilogy. I'll take TPM any day over this movie.

 

AotC remains my second fave SW film and the best of the PT. Going to watch it again in 15 mins, matter of fact. Dooku is awesome!

 

I agree on this 100%! I really wish we could have seen more of him.

 

Just finished watching this. I think I have now seen the tweaked version. Was an interesting experience. Dooku and the creatures remain the highlights.

 

Well . . . the public can be pretty fickle. Even I have shifted my opinion of certain movies over the years. Even the Star Wars films. Now, I like The Phantom Menace more than I like A New Hope. It used to be the reverse. But as I had earlier stated, I will never try to defend Attack of the Clones. I'm more than satisfied with my opinion of the film. I just don't see the need to change the minds of the franchise's other fans.