PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

No straw-man, your opinion about how the characters of AOTC have to be stupid in order for the plot to work hinges on you taking information from one (or a couple) character(s) and acting like just because they feel one way (a way that you think is the correct way they should feel), well then everyone else must have seen it the same way or they are stupid if they didn't. It is the absolute crux of your opinion. You conveniently ignore other information that is introduced by other characters that shows the reasons and methods of the plot as to why there is debate, why the Senate doesn't work, why the MCA wouldn't pass, why it does later on, etc etc.

In the move it is clearly portrayed that there is a fear of war. Padme talks about it, and that is what the conversation is about in the Chancellors office. Mace never comes out and says he believes the Separatists will attack. You are putting words into his mouth. The talk is of the potential for the situation to escalate to the point of war. It is never discussed who thinks who will fire the opening shot. It is a discussion of the current political climate of the Republic and the fear that is driving all the sides in the debate.

The facts of dialogue from various characters, Padme, Bail Organa, and Palpatine himself tells us that the leaders of the Republic do not believe the Seps (at the opening of the movie) have an army. The fear of many (not all) is that if the MCA is approved then it will force the seps to get their army (because they believe the Seps don't have one), further escalating the situation. Mace never says who he thinks will attack whom. He is merely telling Palpatine if the Spes break away and it comes to war, there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic in the event of a war.

Because that is my opinion of the conversation we are having. Not trying to make it personal, just expressing my thoughts of why you are taking the stand you are.

U.S. assets had been attacked numerous times by the axis powers prior to Pearl harbor. The U.S. didn't get openly involved because public opinion was against it. The attack on Pearl harbor was to large of an act of open aggression for the public to ignore and it changed the landscape of public opinion. The point I was making still stands, that people react to the thought of war differently. AOTC is no different. People were reacting differently to the thought of war. However, there was enough of a change in the mindset of what to do when the Senate finds out of Dooku's secret army that the groundwork was now there for opinion to push the legislation forward had the Senate worked like it should, However the Senate does not work like it should.

No he doesn't, he is merely pointing out the obvious should there be a war. Mace never says he believes the Seps will attack first.

Because there is now a new wrinkle to the debate, the use of clones. Bail's words reflect it!

There was no need too, the bill would have failed. The TF would have filibustered only if the MCA was going to pass.

Seeing how Gunray was able to escape prosecution in the courts, and maintain control of his trade franchise, I suspect that the TF still did.

Geonosis was too far away from Coruscant. Remember that is why Obi Wan needed to re-route his message through Anakin. I would suspect that the message never got to Gunray in time.

My guess is that there are matters of procedure that can't be debated. Just a guess on my part though.

Dooku was the leader, and that is the whole point, the Seps were forced to turn to the only place they could, they had no choice if the Republic was going to create it's own army. Which was part of Palpatines plan.

Seems the Senate is in extreme dysfunction if a measure of such great importance was tossed around in the Senate for a whole year prior to the events of AOTC.

Strong support because 2 senators speak out? Yet you completely ignore lines like these in what you yourself copy/pasted:

Finally the nail in the coffin for your argument, is that Orn Free Taa is a supporter of the MCA, yet he wants the vote deferred.

After Padme shows up, Orn Free Ta says..

Obviously if a supporter of the MCA wants the vote deferred, then that means he feels there is not enough support for his side to win!

lol, if he or any other senator could have done it then he would have himself or had them do it. You are right though, it is not said in the film, however, neither is it said that Palpatine had that power as well.

For someone that argues that the plot of AOTC forces characters to be stupid, your answer here is just that. So in order for Palpatine to stay "clean" he has Padme institute the vote of no-confidence, because none of the other Senators in the Senate would think that she wasn't following advice directly from him...?

If Padme signs a treaty making the occupation legal, then there is no longer a problem in the Senate to be resolved, thus nothing leading to Valorums poor handling of the situation. There is no longer any sympathy vote for Palpatine in the Senate as the situation had been legally resolved. I always felt that Palpatine knew Padme was going to make it back to Coruscant. The whole treaty thing was for the benefit of the Trade Federation, to keep them thinking of that as to what the motives of the Sith were, and not let them think about what was going on in the Senate.

A lot actually, to stop power hungry senators from ganging up on a Chancellor, to stop exactly what Palpatine is doing from happening. Thus why Palpatine had to go to the extreme and plan the whole Invasion of Naboo as he did.

Never addressed in the film, it never got to the point that we needed to find out. So your point is moot.

Same way that the United Nations doesn't have a single soldier, while there are a number of armies all over this world. The U.N. has to use soldiers from private armies (armies of individual nations) in order to have a military force.

What does this have to do with anything? lol

No they didn't they were a member of the Republic that attacked another member.

1 member attacked another member. It was a crime for sure, but, they didn't attack the Republic as a whole.

It was an act of war, that included 1 member on another, not against the Republic as a whole. That is exactly what one of the jobs of the Jedi was, to stop these instances of member against member brutality.

No. If Florida attacked Georgia, it wouldn't be a World War, or even a national civil war, it would be a war between two member states that would need to be resolved on a federal level.

Sorry was that in the movie?

I must have missed that in the movie, or how it even means anything to the overall conversation?

They weren't given a chance too, as the TF and it's cronies were able to do their dirty work even before Padme finished her speech.

The Jedi were concerned, the movie shows that.

I don't trust President Obama, yet there are so many things that he is entrusted with lol.

She probably assumed she didn't need too, and then after the fact was never given the chance too as she was shut down in favor of a commitee.

 

Christopher Lee came into it to late! He's only in the last 1/3!!



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Finally, now we are talking. This is the films biggest flaw. People can go on all day about whether or not the writing of the film is good, but at the end of the day Christopher Lee is largely absent from every scene in the movie.

 

Amen!!! He COULD of easily carried the film as the Bad Guy, the whole revelation in the last 10 minutes that Dooku is a Sith
"Welcome Home Lord Tyranus"
Yeah, I get what Lucas wS going for, but come on!!!??????

It's Christopher "I KNOW what someone stabbed in the back sounds like" LEE!!!!


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Look at what Mace says, in response to Palaptine saying that he will not let the republic be split in two and that his negotiations will not fail.

In what situation is PROTECT most often used, when you are attacking or when you being attacked?
If the seps would simply secede there would not be a war or conflict and the republic would not need protection or soldiers. It would just be smaller than what it was. And if the number of Jedi don't change, they would have less area to protect so they would have an easier time to do so.

Mace says that IF the negotiations fail THEN there would not be enough Jedi to protect the republic. So he is clearly worried that the seps would be the ones to start hostilities against the republic. Again with what if they have no army? Palpatine then asks Yoda if he really thinks it will come to war and Yoda can not answer.

The republic has no army and if the seps have no army either, how can there be a war if neither side have any soldiers?
We know that the seps can call upon the forces of the commerce guild and corporate alliance, that in of itself doesn't say that they have no army at present, just that they can get more help if need be.

I am NOT arguing that everyone agrees with Mace, I am using what he says as evidence that he thinks that the seps MIGHT turn violent and could attack the republic and this in turn suggest that they are not totally without military capabilities.

Talking about my motive, why I feel a certain way or trying to psycho analyze me IS personal. You can deal with the specifics arguments raised without questioning me as a person. It is getting tiresome.

First, see above for the word protect. Second, as long as the republic has no army, it can't attack the seps can it? At that time, Mace had no knowledge of the clone army. Even IF the army bill were to pass, an army would not magically come into being. If we are talking about a draft/volunteer army, they would require many months of training, plus equipment and weapons.

The corporate alliance and the others have armies at the ready, the republic does not.
If the army bill is passed and the seps see this as a declaration of war, they could get immediate help from the commerce guild and could attack long before the republic has any army to speak of.
If the Jedi think this, then they would not want the army bill to pass as that would start a war while the republic has no army.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, I was talking about TPM and the bill about the taxes. That HAD passed the senate. Again if it so easy to stop bills, why didn't the TF stop it.
And if it hasn't yet passed the senate, which doesn't make much sense given the rest of the film, why is the TF stooping to a blockade when they could just filibuster the tax bill?

Actually Obi-Wan's long range transmitter had been knocked out. THAT is why he had to reroute his message. Anakin and Padme were less than a parsec away from him and they could contact Coruscant just fine. So a message from Coruscant would have no problem reaching Geonosis.

Second, the people in Palpatine's office had been told about the clone army, presumably by the Jedi.
Did the rest of the senate know? If the senate had been specifically discussing clones as opposed to an army in general, they would have to. So if the TF still has a man in the senate, they would have heard about a clone army, most likely some rough figures of numbers and the like. Given that Mace had to go all the way from Coruscant plus however much time earlier the senate was told about the clones, there would have been ample time to inform Nute. But Nute and the other seps are taken totally by surprise. So either they didn't have a man in the senate anymore or that guy is dumber than a pile of rocks.

???? I don't follow.
Dooku said that with the TF's and others support, thousands of systems would rally to their cause.
He said nothing about the republic getting an army or anything of the sort.
Again, if the TF and the other big companies were the cause of much of the corruption in the senate, why would other system trust that a government run by the TF and co would be any less corrupt?
And why would they turn to the people that caused the corruption in the senate if they are unhappy about said corruption?

Really, wow, lol.
You really think that Palpatine planned for Padme to get to Coruscant?
And you accuse me of ignoring lines or putting words in people's mouths?

So him ordering the Jedi killed, ordering the invasion, he did that knowing that the Jedi would live and would get Padme out?
Him telling Maul to track Padme and then go to Tatooine to kill the Jedi and get her back to Naboo, that was just him faking it and he always planned for that to fail?
Sorry this makes ZERO sense, you have Palpatine giving orders that either he knows won't work or he is trying to sabotage his own plan. Esp the Maul bit, if Maul engages the Jedi but fails to stop them, the Jedi would know that the sith are back. That wouldn't really serve Palpatine's goals as he and the other sith have been able to operate without the Jedi knowing about it for a long time.
He would only send out Maul if the stakes are high or if he was certain that he would succeed.
Sending Maul knowing he would fail is neither.

To sum, up, NOTHING in the film even remotely suggest that Palpatine had planned for Padme to come to Coruscant and plenty directly contradicts it.
So his original plan is not dependent in any way of Padme being there just so that she can call for a vote. So there is no evidence what so ever that a regular senator can't make this type of call.

Either he didn't plan for a vote and wanted Valorum gone through other means, or he did plan for it but then you get the problem why he or his cronies didn't make it themselves.

As I said above, Palpatine didn't plan for Padme to get to Coruscant and had to improvise.
Why he or his toadies didn't call for the vote? Ask Lucas.

Simple answer, plot requirement. If Palaptine calls for a vote at the start of the film, then you would have no movie. So in order for the plot to work, he has to wait.

If I am trying to work with the film then maybe calling for the vote when it was just a matter of being unable to resolve a blockade, that might not have been enough to get Valorum voted out.
With Valorum being unable to act even in the face of war, that is another matter.

Since Palpatine didn't plan for Padme to come to Coruscant, this reasoning is baseless.
And if you think it doesn't make much sense if Palpatine could have made the call anytime he wanted to or that it is stupid for the senate to be so easily disrupted.
Now you see why some of us are having problems with the films?

The senate is set up in ways that don't make sense and character act in ways that don't make sense. You try to get around that by assuming that Palpatine had some totally convoluted and ridiculous plan for Padme to get to Coruscant.
Sorry, it isn't helping.

So if Russia attacked just Alaska, that would not be seen as an attack on the US, just Alaska?

The TF had a beef against the senate/republic about some tax issue. They blockaded Naboo to force the issue in the senate. Then they went one step further and attacked and invaded Naboo.
The TF's issue isn't just with Naboo, it is bigger than that.
The same TF has a big army while the republic has none. And said TF has just shown that it is willing to use military force and invade whole planets to get what they want.
And you don't think the senate has cause for concern or view this as an assault on the republic?

The TF invaded a whole world and conquered it over some tax dispute. They are clearly not playing games anymore and the senate, if they aren't retarded, would consider that the TF might not stop with Naboo. Esp since the republic has no army.

Were they? They never once considered the idea that the TF might attack other worlds now that the kid gloves are off. There were apparently also not concerned with the fact that the senate has proven unable or unwilling to do anything about this hostile act. The big TF army and the lack of a republic army is likewise somehow not a concern. Say the senate does believe that the TF has attack Naboo, what can they do? Shake their fist impotently at them?
Send the Jedi to engage the TF's droid army? If so, shouldn't that be something the Jedi would talk about?
In all, the Jedi seemed about as concerned about the Naboo war as if they had run out of sugar for their coffe.

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She could easily have said "No need for a committee, the two Jedi Valorum sent to Naboo saw the whole thing, ask them."
Also when Palpatien said that he feared that the senate would not act on the invasion, that would also have been a good time to suggest that the Jedi appear as witnesses. To show the seriousness of the situation.

Bye
Old Stoneface

 

I like that he takes a while to appear. We're not really supposed to think he's really the villain until the scene in the hangar where he uses force lightning and his red saber.

That, I think, was worse. If Dooku had been in the film for the same amount of time, but had used a different coloured blade, the reveal at the end would have been much more effective.

Red does sort of scream evil, especially when all the other Sith use it.

 

Agreed. If he were in it more, and if his character was anything like it was in the Clone Wars novels, graphic novels, and television series, it would have been a better movie fo sho.

 

I never liked Count Dooku in TCW. He is just too moustache twirling for my taste. Seeing how he treated his political allies there, it is a wonder that he got ten thousand systems to join him in the first place. But I always loved his depiction in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, and I generally liked his turn in previous EU material.

I agree that the movie would be benefit from more Christopher Lee though. Everything is better with more Christopher Lee.

 

The EARLY Clone Wars comics captured his character the best!
I wasn't a fan I the cartoon,
Anyone who hasn't read
Jedi: Count Dooku
It features Voss but Dooku gets a LARGE amount of screen time, plus he does some of his best Sword Play throughout and you get to see how MANY worlds view Dooku as a hero! Even Voss gets the fact that The Republic is dying and Dooku is one of the alternatives!


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I don't really get why many people don't like this film. I guess it's time for me to look back at my pros and cons for this one after my recent re-watch. (by the way, this movie looks amazing in Blu-Ray!)

Well some pros I gave (9 total) included Obi-Wan and Anakin interaction, Jango Fett period, Christopher Lee, Geonosian Arena scene, and how the whole Kamino missing thing shows the galaxy is bigger than even the Jedi thought. And some cons (4 total) included Anakin's over the top anger, cheesy romance, and some of the CGI doesn't look that convincing to me as opposed to Revenge of the Sith.

And in the end I gave it a 9.3. It'll probably be a higher score the next time I watch it.

 

I think this is incorrect. In the hypothetical demonstration of Florida suddenly attacking Georgia, yes, the US Federal government would see this as an unprovoked attack on the United States from one of its own states. Even if Florida didn't secede, even if it didn't spark off the American Civil War II, it'd still be considered an unprovoked attack against the whole country and would warrant immediate action.

Just like if, say, France randomly and suddenly attacked Germany. It might not spark off another World War or anything, but certainly the EU would view this as France (one nation in the EU) making an unprovoked attack on Germany (another nation in the EU).

See what I'm saying? An attack on one chunk is an attack on the whole.

 

First, none of this is in the film and I don't give credit to things not in the film because it isn't IN the film.
Second, I haven't watched much of TCW but as I understand it, it takes place AFTER AotC, when open war has broken out. So then a ban of communications between enemy sides makes some sense. During most of AotC there is no state of war so why would such a rule exist then?
Third, was Geonosis ever a republic world? The film doesn't say but it was one parsec from Tatooine, which wasn't part of the republic. So either it was never part of the republic so contact with it would be no harder than to Tatooine. Or it was a part of the republic but have now joined the seps. But the seps haven't separated yet. That is what AotC says, some systems have declared their intention to separate but they haven't yet done so. It wouldn't be very smart of the republic to sever all communications with all systems that just talk about leaving. Acting like that would just piss them off.
Fourth, it is illegal? Nute and the TF have been involved in a plot to assassinate a republic senator. I doubt they give two craps about what is legal.
Fifth, how would this even work? If there is some centralized system of communication in the republic I can see that they could sever connection to certain systems. But why would Tatooine, a non republic world, be connected? And as above, there is no war yet.
Sixth, once Nute goes to Geonisis, no one in the TF can contact him? Doesn't make much sense.
If he has his own long range communication, and why wouldn't he, he can contact anyone he likes. The only way to stop him would be to jam all transmissions but how could the republic do that to Geonosis when they haven't any ships there?

Sorry this explanation doesn't work.

So to sum up, if the TF still has people in the senate, they might know about the clone army and they would certainly know about Palpatine's order to create a grand army for the republic. So unless they are stupid, they would have warned Nute.

As for Padme, she can't contact someone on Geonosis when she is in a ship right above the planet?
Unless we are back to heavy jamming, which could only be from the Geonosians, that makes no sense, she certainly could. If it was illegal, then first, she was given an order to stay out of this and she ignored it. Second, if she can't talk to the seps via radio, how is it less legal for her to land and talk to them in person?
Third, Padme's actions on Geonosis makes very little sense regardless.
She lands at some random spot, snakes in and hopes to make it to the leaders without anyone noticing. It doesn't seem likely that this would work and even if she managed ot get to those leaders, they would most likely to call for security rather than to listen to Padme.
If she really wanted to talk she should have radioed them and then landed in an official space port and asked to see the leaders of the Geonosians. But the film needed an action scene so we got that instead.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

It doesn't matter if Nute cares if it's legal or not, but I'm sure his contact in the Republic cares about not getting caught contacting a Separatist planet. It's obvious Geonosis is a Separatist planet.

Maybe it's not the Republic jamming transmissions to Geonosis. It's Dooku himself. Remember he actually wants this war to happen?

 

I like the way Lucas did it. I wouldn't have minded seeing more Jedi like Aayla Secura, Shaaki Ti and Qui Gon in the prequels since this was sorta the Golden Age of the Jedi Order. I get that we focus on a family in the saga, but I felt like that could have been shown a little more - maybe we need a film between AOTC and ROTS to show both sides winning the Clone Wars, Jedi sacrificing themselves like the Master Di sacrifice, etc. Plus erm.. Aayla Secura, yes more of that please!! But it would be nice to see the wisdom of the order and how it begins to wane, rather than just focusing on say on Anakin completely and having the Jedi in the background. I think a film between the two was needed to bring the Clone Wars to the big screen. The opening of ROTS was epic and showed what we could have, a cartoon is just not the same and is prone to populism to satisfy a television audience and ratings. The movies were about the original GL vision imo. Plus we could hopefully fit in how Obi Wan and Anakin bond, which I don't think was fully put forward in the movies.

That's a good point. I think more explanation of this was required before giving us that dialogue on Dooku at the beginning. In a way the deleted scene of the Senate debate would have helped I think tbh.

I really like AOTC and how Anakin and Padme fall in love. I think we didn't really get to see though how Anakin and Obi Wan become true friends in ROTS. Maybe we needed a longer film or another film in between the two. The trouble was at the beginning Anakin and Obi Wan clashed in that meeting. I think if they adjusted that scene, then it comes across better.

The whole thing with the clones was super - I remember the Kamino scene and the ending scene and thinking about the Empire - this was genius. Tbh, I would have changed the title to something like Dawn of the Clones to signify the beginning of a clone army and its ascent to the dominant force in the galaxy. I would also prefer if clones were actually the stormtroopers as it would make more sense with their undying loyalty to the Commander in Chief. Have citizens trained at the Imperial academy be their officers/commanders or pilots and captains of starships.

I would have liked a little more linkage of the weaponry, so that the gunships lasers sound like tie fighters and the droids fire blue and the clones fire red to signify technology improving or something like that.

 

Everything you just described is shown in The Clone Wars animated show. You should really give it a chance, these were stories that came directly from George Lucas and it's not just a kid's show, it's tone is more serious than people think.

 

First, Nute and the TF along with the seps are planning to attack the Republic and enforce their demands. Again why would he or any in the TF worry about this law?
Second, again, TCW is set after AotC so is there any evidence that this law existed prior to the war breaking out?
Third, negotiations were still going on with the seps so why would the republic act like asses to them by cutting of their communications? Add to this, negotiations, meaning they were talking to each other. So how does it make sense for the republic to ban any communication between the republic and the seps when they are trying to negotiate?
Fourth, the TF people in the senate aren't communicating with a seps planet, they are communicating with their viceroy.
Fifth, Geonosis are supportive of the seps but that in of itself doesn't mean they were a part of the Republic. Kamino sold an army to the Republic and they don't seem to be a part of said republic.
Sixth, about jamming, Obi-Wan was able to send a signal to Tatooine so then there was clearly no jamming. If Dooku jams any signals then he is cutting himself off from his boss, Palpatine. Not a very smart thing to do. Plus that would have been spotted. When the republic forces attack then some Geonisian comment that their communication is being jammed. So it wasn't before.

To sum up, sorry, this still makes little to no sense.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

1. Yes Nute and the TF wouldn’t care about this law, it’s their Republic contacts that would be worried about being caught contacting them. It’s a Republic law, not a Separatist law.


2. In TCW episode, it was just mentioned it’s illegal to contact Separatist members, it never mention when the law began. It could have begun during the events of AotC or before.


3. Palpatine was having communications with them. He can approve when it’s allowed to have communications with the Separatists like he did during a Senate hearing in TCW and allowed Dooku to speak to the Republic through a hologram transmission.


4. The Viceroy that is on a Separatist planet at the time.


5. Geonosis is a Separatist planet. You can read about it on Wookieepedia or in the Ultimate Star Wars book.


5. Yes maybe Dooku is not jamming the signals then. But that doesn’t mean people from the Republic can contact someone on a Separatist planet. In The Clone Wars we see Jedi communicate with Palpatine and the Jedi Council from Separatist planets. So it’s obvious the Jedi have different transmitters that bypass the legal Republic jammings. It would be terrible if a Jedi were stranded on a Separatist planet and not be able to call the Republic for help because of this law, I’m sure they thought this through.
Like I mentioned before, Palpatine is allowed to negotiate and approve transimissions, so he could obviously talk with Dooku whenever he wanted.

 

I love how ridiculous the hate for the PT is that threads like this can even exist... I'd love to see this kind of thing pop up in the OT section and last more than a second without being locked into oblivion...

 

In TPM the TF had a representative in the senate, their own senator. If they still do, that person is a part of the TF and thus would not care about this law.
And again, the TF are days away from attacking the Republic and enforcing their demands.
Do you really think the TF people are going to care about this law?
So what if they caught? The TF and the other seps will attack the Republic and any TF person would then be the enemy of the Republic. Plus if the seps win, which they think they will, they could demand the release of those people.

Say you are the TF's representative in the senate. You know that Nute has gone to Geonosis to form a big seps army to attack the republic and enforce their demands. Suddenly you hear about a clone army that the republic has found and a grand army will be created for the republic which would oppose the seps army.
Now, do you contact Nute and inform him of this new army so that he can prepare for it or do you stay silent because contacting Nute is illegal?
Only an idiot would do the latter.

Could? In other words you don't know if this law was in effect before the war broke out.
Unless you can find evidence that this law existed prior to the war, it is not relevant, sorry.

Again this was during an actual war, in AotC there was no war until the end.
The seps had NOT yet left the republic. They were talking about it but they hadn't broken away at that time.
Again, if some systems say that they are thinking about seceding from the Republic, how much sense does it make for the republic to sever all communication with those systems?
Everyone that does business with those systems would be screwed as would all republic people that happened to visit those systems and all people from those systems that happened to be on a republic world. This behavior would just inflame the situation and would just piss people off.

During a war then this law makes some sense but not during a time when they are trying for a peaceful solution. What is the rationale behind this rule? During war it makes sense as I've said.
But during peace?
"You are not allowed to talk to anyone from a seps world!"
"Why?"
"Because they are talking about leaving the Republic!"
"But we can talk with planets that are not part of the Republic so them not being a part of the Republic isn't a big deal."
"Yes you can talk to non-republic planets but not planets that are still a part of the republic but are thinking about leaving. Because wanting to leave is rude and we don't want to talk to rude people."

See what I mean?
This rule makes little practical sense when there is no war.

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If there is no jamming then the TF people in the senate could have contacted Nute's ship, which would have told Nute about what was going on.
Since TCW doesn't prove that this law existed before the war, it is irrelevant.
Even if it existed, warning Nute about the republic army would take precedence over breaking the law. Esp since war is days from breaking out and by that time, any TF people are going to be enemies of the republic.

Lastly, if we are talking about jamming signals then that would affect all communications, even to planets like Tatooine. Also in all SW films, where there have been jamming, ships or other equipment needs to be there. I haven't seen any example of being able to jam a system without ships present or being able to jam half the galaxy.

Sorry, this still doesn't help.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Two attempts on Padme's life, proof of a droid army on Geonosis, and Kenobi being taken prisoner. Sounds like they want to go to war to me.

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Like I mentioned before, Sidious does not want Nute and the Separatists to find out about this clone army, so right before he approves it in the Senate, he contacts Dooku to block transmissions so word of the clone army doesn't reach Geonosis.

We have seen transmissions jammings before in The Phantom Menace where Naboo could not contact anyone.

 

There are definitely some truly brilliant episodes like on Mon Calamari and Umbara and even the political intrigue episodes are downright fantastic. But some of the show deviates from the Clone Wars and starts looking at other things or events like Maul. Whilst interesting, they are a shame since there are a limited number of episodes a season and it feels like we should have had those as additional episodes, not taking up valuable space to show us the Clone Wars. Don't forget this is meant to be an epic era, the largest conflict of its kind in recent Galactic history and mentioned in ANH.

I think it would be nice to see more Jedi and more battles. I don't like the old chip thing we saw at the end. That feels like it should be left out. Order 66 was an order in the films and that's why it was surprising and incredibly clever. I feel like those episodes in Clone Wars cheapened it and simply make the Jedi look silly.

 

The senate became aware of this when Obi-Wan made his report from Geonosis. Based on the dialogue, it seems that the senate had been told about the clone army some time BEFORE that.
If so, nothing prevented the TF guys in the senate from contacting Nute and inform him that a clone army is being made for the Republic.

And again, until you find any canon evidence that this rule was in force during AotC, it is not relevant.

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The jamming in TPM was caused by the massive TF fleet in ORBIT around Naboo.
The Republic has no ships in orbit around Geonosis.
For Dooku to jam himself, he is just one person and so he would have to tell the Geonisians to do this. So they would be aware of what he is doing and they would smell a rat.

As for Nute and the rest of the seps, why would Sidious not want them to know about the clones?
The seps are taken totally by surprise and loose a lot of troops on Geonosis. Say Nute is captured and the TF surrender. That would weaken the seps considerably. This in turn could make other seps to loose their nerve and surrender and the war ends very quickly. This is not something Sidious wants. Worse still, if Dooku is caught or killed on Geonnsis, then the whole seps would fall apart and the war would be over before it starts.
Sidious wants war, he has no need for a crushing seps defeat on Geonosis, esp if that defeat ends the war too quickly.

To sum up, AotC says that Geonosis was jammed when the Republic forces attacked it. Nothing more. Unless you can find some other evidence that it was jammed prior to that or that this rule was in force before this, there is NOTHING that prevented the TF people in the senate from contacting Nute.
The alternative that makes the most sense is that the TF no longer had a representative IN the senate and neither did any of the other seps.

Be seeing you.
The Guarding Dark

 

In the event a war breaks out there is a need to protect the 'homeland". Mace's comments do not automatically mean he is talking about a first strike from the Separatists, there is absolutely nothing in what he says that points to this. That is just your reading into it based only on your opinion, not on what he is saying in the context of the conversation they are having.

Once again, there is fear of war breaking out, and during war what happens? Each side attacks one another. There are not enough Jedi to protect the galaxy during a war in which one side is surely going to attack the other. Again, there is nothing to suggest that Mace is talking about a Separatist first strike.

Furthermore, Mace then goes on to defend Count Dooku, you know, the Count Dooku that is the leader of the Seps... He defends him in that murder is not his way, which an attack by his "forces" on a army-less, thus defenseless Republic would no doubt lead to murder. So how do you account for Mace sticking up for Dooku in one aspect as not being a murderer, but, still account for Mace thinking Dooku would order an attack on a defenseless Republic in a first strike? Your opinion makes no sense.

Mace fears an all out war if the Seps break away, he gives no hints as to whom he thinks will fire the first shot. He is merely pointing out that if a war does break out, the Jedi cannot protect the Republic from any potential attacks that would happen during the course of a war.

Talking about motives behind the opinions we form is fair game because it shows how our opinions are formed and how motives skew the information laid out to us in the film. To have a real conversation about our different interpretations of the movies, and opinions of the movies, motives are (imo) open for conversation.

After all, you are not merely sitting here discussing the plot of the story and how you see it unfolded. No one forced you to express your opinion on your dislike of the movie, or the plot, characters etc. When you express something personal, like your opinion, then once again, imho, your opinion is fair game to be analyzed with my opinion as long as it is not done in a nasty way. I do not believe I have been nasty about it.

And see my response above about the word protect.

The movie clearly shows the Seps have no army, and the fear is that they might turn to the Trade Fed (and others) for their army if they feel threatened, which means that as far as the Republic knows, that action has not taken place yet. Senators like Padme are trying to stop that, they can't try to stop something that has happened already so the logical conclusion is that the Seps have no military, they are in the same boat as the Republic because they were once part of the Republic they had no standing army.

The Corporate alliance was not part of the Seps until later in the film.

The Republic has no standing army just like the Seps, however, the planets in the Republic still outnumbered the Planets that were seceding, thus the Republic had a greater number of resources to draw from.

More planets to pull from to put an army together faster then the Seps could. Which is why the Seps would have to turn to the Trade Fed and others for their army. Once again, that is the whole point, neither side had a standing army. Those Senators against the MCA feared that by passing the MCA and thus pulling together all the military assets of the member planets in the Republic, would force the smaller and weaker Separatists movement to go to the Trade Fed and others to get their army because the Seps, being smaller, didn't have the same pool of resources to pull from as the Republic did.

I think your opinion that it would take the republic a long time to put together a standing army is dead wrong. Much how like NATO works, the Republic would have more than enough member planets with standing armies of their own, that once pooled together would be a sizable army. The Seps would not have that many resources to pull from, thus the need to make treaties with shady characters to get their armies to protect the Separatist worlds.

Thousands more would rally because now the Seps had a way to protect themselves from the Republic trying to force them back into the Republic anyway.

War makes a lot of nasty bedfellows, if you haven't figured that out from our own world history then I don't know what else to tell you.

Possibly

So you are saying Palpatine never sets up his Apprentices for failure, that he doesn't use his Apprentices as tools and pawns? You think Palpatine told Maul everything that was going on, that he told him all his plans? I guess Dooku might disagree with you on that. It is explicitly setup in the movies (OT and PT) that Palpatine hides things from his Apprentices, that Palpatine doesn't tell them everything, and that Palpatine uses them and throws them away when he is done with them. Dooku was never told about what the real plan was during the battle of Courscant, and Palpatine never tells Vader that he allowed the 2nd Death Star location to fall into the hands of the Rebels. So we see how Palpatine treats two other apprentices (uses them, lies to them, sets them up for failure), and you are shocked at the possibility that he lied to Maul or used him?

Part of Palpatines plan was to reveal the existence of the Sith to the Jedi. He wasn't trying to hide it anymore. Palpatine is all about making sure that anything going on with Naboo can't be linked to what is going to happen on Courscant. He's got everyone involved looking at Naboo, and this treaty that he wants signed, when the treaty means nothing to him. Notice what Darth Sidious stops talking about after the vote of no confidence? The treaty! He never once again tells the Trade Fed to capture the Queen to sign the treaty, it mysteriously stops being a focal point for him. The treaty becomes a focal point of the good guys (they fear that once the Queen returns they will capture her and force her to sign the treaty, not of Sidious. He never mentionsit again once Padme leaves Coruscant.

In a movie where one of the themes that runs through the movie is the theme of hiding true intentions whether it's through the use of a decoy or aliases (as a mean to distract) you can't believe that the treaty is a distraction? Padme has a decoy, Palpatine uses an alias, Obi Wan and Qui Gonn pretend to be something other than Jedi at the beginning, then again on Tatooine, the message from Sio Bibble being something it's not, the decoy (distraction) of using the Gungan Grand Army to pull the TF forces out of the city so that Padme and her group can get into the city... Duality is a very strong theme in TPM, so I can definitly see this treaty (that is so important that the story doesn't tell us what it does?), as just being a distraction from Palpatines real purpose follows with the theme of decoys, distractions, and duality in TPM.

I disagree... but that's just my opinion. Opinions can be wrong.

Horrible example, because Russia is not part of the USA. The Trade Federation is part of the same Republic as Naboo. Is a member attacking another member, it is not attacking the Republic as a whole. This problems seem to be a somewhat common occurrence in the Republic, thus the need for the Jedi to keep peace and justice in the Republic.

Just as Qui-Gonn calls it, it is a trade dispute...

It's a trade dispute within the Republic

Naboo had an army, just not a very big (or good) one. Armies were part of individual planets choice of defense. There was no army under the Republic flag, that doesn't mean the TF had the only army in the Galaxy. That's a very broad assumption on your part.

I am sure there were some Senators that saw it as a problem, but, that doesn't mean all senators, or all planets saw it that way. Clearly the majority of the Senate didn't see it as a problem as the Trade Federation was able to continue to operate in the Republic under a trade franchise when we see them in AOTC. If those in the Republic agreed with you, then the TF would have been disassembled don't you think? Once again, as I stated earlier, aggression between members surely happens a lot more than you seem to assume, and that is why the Jedi are used and needed. "Border Disputes" surely happened between two different planets of the Republic from time to time.