PT Thoughts/General Discussion: Attack of the Clones

And...Geonosis. They supposedly had some for of jamming device...were trying to keep their actions there secretbut...apparently absolutely no form of radar/warning apparatus or defensive strategy for dealing with incoming spacecraft? No action was taken against Padmé's ship, the Republic fleet (which caught everybody on Geonosis bysurprise), Obi-Wan's ship or...seemingly, Jango Fett's ship. Anybody can come flying around this planet and see what's going on....and it's remained a secret all this time. How does that work?

 

Here's how it works: It's a movie and not real life. The Republic used sci fi space technology/tactics to evade the Separatists' sensors long enough to make it through the atmosphere. Or maybe they had clone commandos take out some sensors beforehand. I don't freaking know man, how about you just use your imagination like you presumably did for all the million little minor issues in the OT that nobody in the movies wasted time explaining, and which I know you would never ever dream of nitpicking like you do with the PT?

But let me guess: The OT doesn't have any plot holes, and even when it does, they're not as bad as the ones in the PT because mumble mumble mumble.

 

hang on...hang on here. The previous arguments are all about 'evidenced' and 'nuanced' portrayals in the films that all tie together to "make sense" within this "complex" story. Really, the argument goes, the story is well thought out and self-consistent. What I and others have been commenting on are the narrative gaps, that there is actually no internal consistency; that the story, if you put any thought into it, quickly comes apart at the seams.

Let me put that into a perspective. It is this. That an argument is made that...what makes the PT so compelling, so much more valuable than the OT is it's "complexity"...that it is a "deeper" set of movies with a much more intricate and serious narrative. It is that claim that I object to.

My point is that that seeming "complexity" is a mirage. It is this selling of Lucas as some sort of story-telling genius that I am arguing against. Narratively the PT is a mess. The argument "ooh..ooh ...look at the OT" doesn't cut the mustard when you are making an argument regarding a notion of a substantive improvement over the OT's "simple" story. The discussion is about whether the PT actually is the complex and self-consistent storyline it is held up to be.

It's the argument that those who don't "appreciate" this complexity do so because it is too complex for them to "get". I am disavowing you of that opinion. I "get" that the story is full of inconsistency, that there is no genius behind this tale; that too much that ought to be the story told occurs between movies (and we are to 'fill the gaps' with our own imagination - well....we all did that before the PT anyway); that what we are meant to see as "clever" maneuvering actually resolves to 'everybody else has to do stoopid'.

If the argument was 'hey, ok the narrative is a mess but just go with it, go along for the ride...ill the gaps yourself, that's what we all do' that would be fine. However the argument tends to be'No man, you just don't 'get' how complex this story is....you don't understand how 'grey' it's meant to be'....that I baulk at.

So, are you here arguing for that former position? If so I will applaud what you say.

 

No, Dooku owns the jamming devices, like they said in the "Tarkin" novel, not Geonosis. Dooku wants Padme and the Republic ships to come in and attack to start the Clone War. It's part of Sidious' plan.

 

[/QUOTE]

As I said earlier, the people in Palpatine's office already knew about the clone army when Kenobi was captured.
One guy said that they needed that clone army now but Bail said the debate was not over.
What debate? If the debate was about the use of the clone army then the senate HAD to have been told about it.
IF the debate was just about the army bill, then yes the senate might not have know about the clone army. But others in this thread argued that the fact that there was a clone army caused extra debate and would have delayed the vote because of the issue of clones.
My responses was then that IF the senate had been told about the clone army and IF the TF still had people in the senate, why didn't they warn Nute?

Second, sorry it doesn't work like that. You can't assume something exists just because there is nothing that contradicts it. You need to find positive proof, not just the absence of negative proof.
Otherwise I can say that Superman exists in the SW galaxy because there is nothing that contradicts it.

As I said before, this law makes some sense when war has broken out. But you can't take a war time law and retroactively assume that it existed in peace time as well.
The law/rule existed when war had broken out, fine. But we are talking about a time before said war breaking out and you have not found any evidence that this rule/law existed then.
Plus, as I've said, this rule makes no sense when the seps have not yet broken away and there are negotiations to resolve this peacefully. This rule/law would just inflame the situation.

First, is that novel still canon? As I understand it, most EU books are no longer canon. TCW is still canon but a lot of the other EU books that were set between AotC and RotS are not canon anymore.

A device that can hack into TV systems and broadcast propaganda is not quite the same thing as a device that can jam all signals to a whole planet.

But if this is so, wouldn't the various seps get cold feet after the battle of Geonosis?
They were confident of an easy victory but got handed a crushing defeat. They lost a lot of droids and they see that the republic is anything but weak. They would then be likely to surrender.

As for escaping, the only reason Dooku escaped was colossal stupidity on the Jedi's part. In the arena Mace should have brought some backup with him and killed Dooku when the droids appeared. The Anakin behaved like a reckless fool and Yoda was dumb enough to not bring any soldiers with him to the hangar.
As for Nute, it seems that the republic ships didn't think to destroy the rings of those TF ships. Had they done that then Nute would have died or been captured.

Wait, what? The TF still have a man in the senate despite the fact that they have joined the seps and are now waging war on the republic? How does that work?

Second, to Lott Dod it would be far more important to warn Nute about the clone army and the army bill than worrying about violating some rule. Esp since the TF are planning to attack the republic and enforce their demands. Which would be a far more serious breach of the rules.

Third, as I said above, the rule makes some sense in war time but not in peace time and as long as you can't prove that it was in force back then, it doesn't count.

So you are not able to convince me because what you argue with either lacks proof or makes very little sense.
Sorry.


@mikeximus

Wrong I base this on the following;
1) The opening crawl says that some systems have declared their intention of leaving the republic and they are causing problems and are making it hard for the jedi to keep the peace. This has gotten to be such a problem that the senate is talking about making an army to help the Jedi to keep the peace. So the seps doesn't sound all that peaceful. And at this stage, they were just several hundred systems. Plus Padme accuses Dooku of trying to murder her, which again doesn't make him seem friendly.

2a) Mace says that IF the seps break away/the negotiations with them fail, there won't be enough Jedi to protect the Republic. They are keepers of the peace not soldiers.
2b) Dooku says that with their new army, they will quickly overwhelm the Jedi and force the senate to do anything they want.
Both of these sentences says quite clearly that the Republic have NO other defenses other than the Jedi. You talk about the various planets of the republic having armies and they could quickly pull them together to form a big army. And this is what would happen if war breaks out.

BUT consider what Mace said. IF the republic could pull on the various planets and make a big army rather quickly, then the Jedi don't NEED to protect the republic. The republic will now have a big army of soldiers that will do that. So what is Mace warning against? That there won't be enough jedi to protect the republic but they'll have a big army of soldiers that can do that instead? That makes no sense.

No, from what Mace and Dooku says, the republic have no army and the individual planets don't have enough soldiers to make any difference.
Mace warning only makes sense if he means that in the event of an attack, the number of Jedi won't be enough to stop them. Which is pretty much exactly what Dooku says later. The Jedi are the first, last and only defense the republic has.

3) On Geonosis, Nute is totally surprised that the Jedi have a "huge" army. This consisted of about 200 000 soldiers and say a dozen war ships. This is further evidence that the individual planets of the republic have few if any soldiers. Say that the republic consists of one million worlds and each world has on average 100 soldiers and 5 war ships. This would make the total armed forces of the republic about 100 million soldiers and 5 million ships. The army on Geonosis would be 0,2% of the number of soldiers and 0,00024% of the number of war ships. A rather small fraction of the total number and Nute would have little reason to be surprised. Esp since he knows that Obi-Wan was caught on Geonosis while sending a signal to the republic. So he would know that the republic knows what they are doing and could react.

So the republic have no army and can't pull very much if any from the various worlds, the Jedi are their only defense. And given that Mace warns that IF talks break down with the seps, there won't be enough Jedi to protect the republic. That, to me, indicates that he thinks that they could be the ones to attack the republic. Which in turn suggest they have some military capabilities, at least more than the republic has at this time.

But why would there be war? Some hundred systems are talking about separating from the republic and they have been causing trouble and unrest. If they just leave, why would they attack the republic or why would the republic attack them? If the seps have no army and the republic have no army, neither side can attack the other.

And as I said above, if the republic could pool the various local armies then they won't need the Jedi's help. They will have a big army to protect the republic.

No, much of the dialogue in that scene makes no sense. Padme accuses Dooku of trying to murder her despite from what she would know, Dooku would be the last person to want her dead.
The same Dooku has been leading a movement to split the republic in two and he and those that follow him have caused a lot of strife and turmoil. So much so that the Jedi can no longer keep the peace and an army has to be created to help them.
Sure sounds to me that Dooku isn't the most friendly sort.

Also the scene exists mostly to establish Dooku since he won't appear until much later in the film.

The movie shows no such thing. The ONLY thing it establishes is that Padme thinks that if the seps feel threatened, they will turn to the commerce guild or the TF for help. That doesn't have to mean that have no army at all, just that if they feel threatened, say by a bigger army, they will turn to others for more soldiers.

Ex in WW1, Serbia had an army but they knew it was smaller than Austria's so they had made an alliance with Russia for help in case of war.

Say that the seps have an army of 500 000 soldiers and the republic have just the Jedi.
The Jedi are too few to be able to attack whole systems so the seps don't have to worry about an attack. But if the republic makes a big army of say 1 million soldiers, the seps are now outnumbered and could then call for help.

What it does show is that several of the corporate entities, that have big armies, are friendly to the seps and would support them in war. So the seps are not weak or helpless.
And we know that TF are not above attacking weak and defenseless planets.
It also seem that none of the corporate entities were on the side of the republic.

Nope it is supported by the film. As I said above, Nute was surprised that the Jedi could drum up an army of 200 000 soldiers, which is not all that big here on Earth and in a galaxy with millions of planets, it would be very tiny.
Plus what Mace and Dooku said.
And RotS shows just clones in the republic army. I saw no other soldiers there. Well with the exception of the Wookie planet. And according to AotC, they had 200 000 soldiers ready with a million more underway. That number sound very low for a galactic war.

Umm I think you are forgetting what the seps plan was. They had made a big army and they would now attack the republic and force the senate to do anything they wanted.
There would be a war yes but they would be the aggressors, they would be the ones attacking.


So the ones would join them would probably do so because the seps would soon be the victors in their war with the Republic and they could either join the side of the winners or be conquered.

Plus you forget that earlier you argued that the army bill would not be approved by the senate so the republic has at present no means to force the seps to stay. And nowhere in the film is it said that the army would be used to force the seps to stay in the republic. The stated intent was to help the Jedi keep the peace. The peace that the seps are disturbing. Padme opposed the army bill because she feared that it would escalate the situation and start a war. Also would the Jedi really be in favor of an army that keeps systems in the republic at gun point? Is their motto "Stay in the republic or die"?

You need to better than "possibly" if your argument should be taken seriously.

Logical fallacy, just because someone does something sometimes doesn't mean they ALWAYS does this.

Umm, Maul was sent to kill the Jedi and bring Padme back to Naboo. Had he done this, the Jedi would have no idea that the Sith are back.
Say that Maul was killed or captured, would that help Palpatine?
No. He would be minus an apprentice and worse still, Maul might talk.
Plus it would alert the Jedi that their worst enemy was back.

Palpatine can double cross his apprentices but he isn't a moron that does this for no reason.
In RotS, he tossed Dooku aside for Anakin. In RotJ he wanted to toss Vader aside for Luke.
In TPM, Palpatine didn't know about Anakin yet so what reason would he have to toss Maul aside?

Hardly a mystery, the treaty stops being a concern because now he has gotten what he wanted, rid of Valorum.
The original plan was to invade Naboo, force some treaty and somehow use this to get rid of Valorum.
But when Padme manages to get to Coruscant, Palpatine adapts his plan and uses her instead. Either way, he has now achieved his goal, Valorum is gone and he will soon be chancellor.
So the treaty is of no interest to him now. However that does not prove that the treaty was NEVER of interest to him. You are again using a logical fallacy.

Curiously the TF also suddenly loose interest in said treaty but for no apparent reason except the plot demands it.

None of this even remotely proves your case. You are making a lot of assumption and forcing people to do totally stupid things for no apparent reason and you have Palpatine using a plan that is extremely convoluted and could fail spectacularly. And all for no apparent reason.

Sorry, I don't assume that Palpatine is a moron or that he engages in self sabotage. I actually think he is clever and uses plans that makes sense as opposed to foolish ones.
The film says that Valorum sent the Jedi, not Palpatine, so they were not part of his plan.
He ordered them killed. That failed.
He ordered an invasion and to capture Padme and force her to sign a treaty. She escaped.
He sent Maul to track her down, kill the Jedi and take her back to Naboo. That too failed.
When Padme comes to Coruscant, he adapted his plans.

I am working with the film here, not totally rewriting his actions and motivations based on nothing at all.

To keep it simple and maybe keep my answer shorter than a Bible, prove it!
Provide direct canon evidence that Palpatine planned for Padme to get to Coruscant.

As DARTHLINK said above, if Florida attacked and invaded Georgia or if Germany attacked and invaded Holland, that would be seen as a larger attack and not a minor problem.

It is a common problem? On what do you base that? Are planetary invasions so common that they bore people or something?
The Jedi are not soldiers, they can't fight whole armies by themselves.
If these types of attacks are such a common problem, how can the republic even function when you have wars breaking out all the time? Esp since the republic have no army itself.
No, the impression I got from the film is that wars were very rare and large scale wars almost unheard of.

With the invasion it now bigger than that. Also Qui-Gon noted that this was an odd play by the TF. And there was something else behind all this. So he clearly didn't expect them to attack and invade a whole planet. Which suggest they are not in the habit of doing this. Plus they murdered and tried to murder ambassadors of the republic.
If the US sends ambassadors to negotiate with some country and that country murders them. That could be seen as an act of aggression against the US itself.

Not really an army, just security volunteers.
Plus a handful of one man fighters. Which the TF were kind enough to leave fueled and fully armed in the hanger in the palace that they now control. More plot demands.

And as I said above, if wars of this sort were commonplace the demand/need for a republic army would have arisen a lot sooner. The Jedi are not soldiers, Mace says this. How could they deal with an enemy fleet? They have no warships.
And how does it make sense that a republic that have frequent wars between the various members, won't see the need for a republic army. But a republic that is faced with some hundred systems leaving, now they must have an army?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Tarkin is canon Samuel Vimes. Stuff from September 2014 onwards is canon. Train came out that November or so.

 

1) The movie does nothing to suggest that the Separatists that are causing a problem are a military force, if it was a military force then they are already at war. There is civil strife across the galaxy, and the Jedi are trying to put these fires out.

2a) Yes, he says if they break away, If negotiations fail, he never ever says if the separatists attack. The conversation in the chancellors office is about the possibility of war. I love how in a lot of your replies you use the argument that the movie doesn't support something I say, but, you can't point to one single line of dialogue from Mace saying he believes the Seps will attack first. You pull Mace's dialogue out of the conversation he is having and try to make it stand on it's own, without using the entire conversation that his dialogue is a part of. His dialogue is part of a bigger context which is part of a conversation he is engaged in with other people. That conversation is dealing with the MCA and the possibility of war, no one in that conversation, including Mace says anything about a fear of the Seps attacking first. Mace is telling the Chancellor that if the Seps break away before the passage of the MCA and war breaks out, then there are not enough Jedi to protect the galaxy.

2b) Just another prime example of you intentionally ignoring information and how the movie plays out, just to serve your opinion. When Dooku says this, he knows the MCA has not been voted on, and he knows that if the MCA has not been voted on and passed, then there is no law that says the Republic can form an army. No MCA=NO Republic Army=Defenseless Republic. The Republic cannot call it's member states armies under the Republic Flag until the MCA passes. Your opinion stands on this premise that only the Trade Fed and commerce guilds had armies in the Republic. That's a rather short sighted stance to take, especially when Dooku's dialogue tells us there are other armies out there in the galaxy!

Dooku: Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support, and when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy.

That dialogue tells us there are other armies out there, that are greater than the Trade Federations army or the commerce guilds army as they stand as individual armies, that it is only until after they combine their armies will they have the greatest army in the galaxy. There are surely individual planets of the Republic that have their own armies, the problem is that in order to get them all under the single flag of the Republic, there needs to be a vote to do so, which is called the Military Creation Act. That MCA is stalled in Senate, so the Republic cannot create an army under it's flag until the passage of the MCA. Dooku knows this, and is taking advantage of this. Furthermore, no one in the Republic knows about Dooku's plan (until Obi Wan reports it back), so what Dooku says in that conversation is irrelevant to the what or how anyone in the Republic feels at the beginning of the movie as they don't know about it because it hasn't happened yet lol...

If Dooku had some sort of military at the beginning of the movie (which he does not, but you continue to hang onto that for some reason), then there is no reason for him to make a deal with the Trade Fed or Commerce Guilds for their armies. Once again, simply put, the movie shows us how the 2 armies are formed. Neither side had an army at the beginning of the movie, the Republic is debating whether they should create their own army, which is meeting opposition in the Senate because of the fear that it will escalate the situation, and force the Seps to turn to the Trade Fed and Commerce Guilds to create their army. Why would they turn to them? Because the Seps have no army... lmao...

Once again, you continue to pull out Mace's lines and pretend they aren't part of a bigger conversation. Palptine is warning the Jedi that he can't hold off the vote on the MCA anymore, an MCA that is not going to pass, Mace is warning the Chancellor that without the MCA, and if the Seps break away (leading to war) there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. No one says anything about who will attack first! Or gives an opinion as such. Could it be an opinion at the individual level that some may think that the Seps may attack first, yes certainly there are some that feel that way, but that is individual opinion and not representative of the Senate as a whole. It is quite clear that this not the opinion of the majority as the MCA seems set to fail in the Senate, so if the Majority feel the MCA is not necessary, then the majority feels the seps are not an imminent threat... because the seps don't have an army.

Neither Mace nor Dooku say anything about individual planets. Show me the quote!

The Republic doesn't have an army at the beginning of the movie, because the MCA hasn't passed (or even voted on for that matter)

The Seps don't have an army and that is why they have to turn to the Trade Fed and Commerce Guilds to get theirs.

Dooku only says that AFTER he just gets the Trade Fed and Commerce Guilds to pledge their armies to him, because he (Dooku and the Seps) doesn't have an army yet... Again, you are taking something from one part of the movie to try to justify your opinion and refusing to use context of what's being said! lmfao...

The Republic as a whole cannot be defended, until the MCA passes, there are thousands of individual armies spread across the galaxy that will not fall under control of the Republic without the MCA. The MCA is set to pull those resources together under one banner, and continue to build on top of that (draft, volunteer etc). Until then, all there is are smaller individual armies just protecting themselves, and not a grand army of the Republic that can pool all it's resources together. Thus why the MCA is needed, to protect the Republic as a whole (including planets that have no army at all).

Once again, Nute, Dooku, and the rest of the Seps know how the Republic works, they know the MCA is still being debated with no vote having been taken. They know (or assume) the Republic won't begin building its Army until the MCA passes. So yes they are astonished to see the Jedi with a huge army. However, here's the great part that discredits your argument, the Seps would have no clue it was a clone army, they would automatically assume that the Jedi/Republic pulled this army together from it's member planets. You know it's a clone army, the seps wouldn't at that juncture! Even if the Seps knew of Clone Armies, they wouldn't even contemplate it being a clone army because of the length of time it took to grow a clone army.

The Jedi are the only defense because the MCA hasn't passed, which is what Mace is telling Palpatine.. Once again, there is context to what Mace is saying, his lines are not stand alone dialogue that he is saying only to himself:

Chancellor Palpatine:
I don't know how much longer I can hold off the vote, my friends. More and more star systems are joining the Separatists.
Mace Windu:
If they do break away-
Palpatine:
I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two! My negotiations will not fail.
Windu:
If they do, you must realize that there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers.
Palpatine:
Master Yoda, do you really think it will come to war?
Yoda:
Hmmm. The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is.

Context Context Context...

Palpatine starts the conversation talking about the MCA, and how he can't hold off the vote, which he is doing for them (the Jedi) because as it stands the MCA fails, and the Jedi are left helpless. Mace is warning the Chancellor that if the Seps break away (leading to war) then there are not enough Jedi. Mace is warning the Chancellor of the consequences of the MCA failing, not some imminent attack by the Seps.

The same reason that The North went to war with the South in the American Civil War, to pull the rebellious states (in the GFFA's case planets) back into the Republic, by force if need be.

lmfao, but the MCA needs to be passed first... No MCA= no army of the Republic...

Real World example...In the U.N., there has to be a vote passed in order to pool various countries resources together in order to make an army of peace keepers...No Vote (resolution), or a vote that fails = no peacekeepers under the UN Flag... The peacekeepers come from member countries, because the U.N. has no standing army.

Lmfao... so the information from that dialogue works against your theory, so you just dismiss it... Love it...!

The dialogue establishes that the Jedi, including Mace see Dooku, the leader of the Seps as a political idealist, and not a murderer, which if the Seps attacked the defenseless Republic with this imaginary military that you keep pushing would surely be murder! So if the Jedi see Dooku as not being a murderer, then they don't see him as attacking a defenseless Republic, after all, he was once a Jedi m'lady, it isn't in his character!

Yes, the movie shows exactly that.

Yes he was, because of the MCA and how everyone knows the Republic can't make an army until it passes. It all works together to tell the story, but, you continue to refuse to put it together, so you can hang onto your narrative.

So the wookies have an army to protect their planet, but, no one else in the Republic did...? On Utapau, there are brief scenes showing Utapau vehicles in the battle. I guess on Felucia, the giant slugs the clones were riding on were standard issue, and couldn't in any way be borrowed from the Felucian military?

Again, in order to hang on to your narrative you dismiss the planets that have a military, and only point to the ones that you think don't have one, and try to make it seem that this is what is indicative of the 10,000+ planets in the Republic...
Also, did you see the people aboard the Republic Assault Ship at the end of ROTS? Where did they come from? The clones were the foot soldiers, clearly the Republic was pulling from other areas of the galaxy for their military forces. Maybe Tarkin doesn't have a home planet, maybe he was born aboard a Republic Military Vessel and given growth acceleration for the 3 years between AOTC and ROTS...

Strawman... When someone establishes a behavior, it is quite logical to think they will keep doing it. If all your argument hinges on that this might be the one time Sidious doesn't lie to his apprentice just because it might not be, I will stick to the established behavior.

Running out of time... so I will end with this..

I could care less if you take my argument seriously or not. I continue to discuss it with you for the entertainment value of seeing how far you will go out of your way to ignore and bend the information in AOTC just to hold onto your opinion. Once I get bored with it, I will stop.

 

i found the whole droid factory scene with r2 flying around and 3p0 swiching heads with a battle droid pretty cringeworthy when aotc came out, then after seeing all the deleted scenes that could have explained the story alot better it made me wonder what lucas was thinking. I read it was a last minute decision to show off ILM's cgi and they filmed the whole scene in one day. I would have rather scene the time devoted to showing Anakin and Padme go on trial, Dooku talking to Padme, some of Padme's family scene, the scene where she addresses the senate and actually explains why she's oppossed to forming an army etc. also some of the cgi didn't seem quite up to par, Dex for example, it's still a fun movie to watch it seems like Lucas changed his mind alot thoughand it shows

 

I wish they would have kept the deleted scenes, it would have made Anakin/Padme more tolerable for the audience, and given her more character developpment. I always prefer the novels to the movies when it comes to the Prequels.

 

Any and I do mean any layered story isn't air-tight. I can acknowledge certain inconsistencies, but the overall narrative is solid in my opinion. The superiority of the prequels lies in its ambition to attempt such a tale, which to this point in Star Wars cinematic history was unprecedented. You keep going back to how "stupid" the characters must be and that I take exception to. It's too reductive, you aren't really considering all the options and that's why we're here to assist you. Not to sound condescending, because you sound like a very bright person, but your default for pretty much every character inconsistency seems to be a dismissal of the characters intelligence without really considering all of the possibilities for their perceived "stupidity". You really are nitpicking, and that's fair, but acting like you or your cohorts have struck some kind of fatal blow to the narrative of the prequels, is frankly rubbish. You've been pretty much countered point-for-point, and maybe not to your satisfaction, but at the same time you and I are not willing to really, truly entertain the other sides opinion. You are stuck on one side of the fence and I on the other. I sympathize with your persnicketiness, but I think it's largely unmerited.

However, I do want to note that I enjoy your contributions, along with Samuel Vimes, but I truly, deeply, have no idea how you watch other films without going absolutely insane over minutia...

 

Great post Mindless Monster. I couldn't agree more!

In my continuing discussions with Samuel Vimes, I will be the first to admit that I might not have every single detail correct about my opinions and theories behind AOTC, however, anything that I might be getting wrong is minute in the grand scheme of the plot. I am very very confident in my overall understanding of the movie and it's plot and feel the movie does a good job of laying out it's plot for us to understand.

As I have said in previous posts, it seems that there are those so stuck in their own narrative about the movie, a narrative based on their dislike for the movie, that they have used this dislike as a foundation that each and every other opinion about the movie is then built off this foundation. It has gotten to a point where they now bend information and dialogue to suit their narrative instead of letting the dialogue and information tell the story.

 

It is very simple, if a film grabs me, engages me so that I am involved with the characters, cares about happens to them, feels happy, sad or elated. Then plot contrivances, events that makes little sense and things of that sort don't bother me unless they are very glaring.
However if a film doesn't grab me and I am sitting there passively watching the film, then I tend to notice such things more. TPM didn't really grab me, I found myself disinterested in the characters and didn't care about them all that much. I found some of them cold and indifferent, others I found wooden and dull.

But that does not mean that I will deny plot contrivances in films that I really like. If someone brings up a problem with the film and explains why it is a problem I can acknowledge that the issue is there but that it doesn't ruin the film for me.

Ex I really like the film "The Two Towers" but when talking about it, one person complained that Eomer's 5000 cavalry came from nowhere and how did Aragorn know about them.
I readily admit that this was not explained very well or really at all. It doesn't really damper my enjoyment of the film but it is a fair and legit criticism.
There is a difference between saying "There is no problem" and "There is a problem but I can overlook it."

Also, for the record, I don't dislike the PT films, there are ok to pretty good. There are some good stuff in them but there are also some stuff that bother me. One of those is that all too often things happen because the plot needs them to happen or people have to act stupid in order for the plot to work.

To give a non SW example, the first Jurassic Park film. I overall like it but I was bothered by the plot contrivance where almost every employee on the island just left and the millionaire owner had just two computer guys and one game warden to take of him and his important guests. There were not even staff in the kitchen. I know why they had to leave but it still bothered me.

@mikeximus

And here is where you are totally wrong. First, I don't hate or dislike these films, they are pretty good but I have some problems with them and I have tried to explain why and what those problems are for me.
I saw the film, overall liked it but I also had some immediate issues with it. I found the droid factory scene somewhat silly and not very good. Padme's plan on Geonosis made little sense and I wondered why the Jedi seemed not to care about the Jango/Dooku connection.

Those issues did not come from some need to hate these films or a desire to bash them, they were my genuine reaction to seeing the film for the first time. It is up to you if you want to believe me or not but those were my reactions. Later viewings gave rise to some other questions but I still overall like the film. But I also think the film has some problems.

I also find highly ironic that you complain about people making up their own narrative and twist what is said or ignore it altogether when you have totally made up your own narrative about what Palpatine's plan in TPM were. You made up the idea that he really planned for Padme to get to Coruscant based on nothing at all. And you ignored or rewrote what he said and did in order to justify your own version of the story. You totally made up the notion that regular senators can't call for a vote of no confidence and that Palpatine sent Maul to kill the Jedi and capture Padme but he really intended for the opposite to happen.

What you are doing here is what I mentioned earlier, you try to make the arguments personal.
You don't just deal with the specifics issues I talk about but you also try to label me as "Lucas hater/PT Basher" in an attempt to invalidate what I say. You try to dismiss my opinion as invalid because "You hate the films therefore you are wrong about everything."

This attitude is both tiresome and irritating. And this will probably be my last post to you in this thread because it is no longer fun or even interesting.

But before I go I will address some things you said earlier.

Interesting how you tried to discredit my argument by mentioning a clone army when I NEVER mentioned that in the passage you quoted. So this is a straw-man on your part. You invent an argument for me so you can then claim victory.
I said that Nute was surprised that the Republic could drum up 200 000 SOLDIERS on pretty short notice, not CLONES.

Also, when the clones arrived on Geonosis, the vote HAS HAPPENED. Which Nute would know about IF he still has people in the senate.

Also Nute and the other seps would know that a Jedi was caught on their planet and this Jedi were sending a signal. So the seps would figure that this Jedi had alerted the republic of what they were doing. So Nute could figure that the senate is now aware of the big army they have built and that they are preparing for war. So the senate would most likely hurry up and do something.

And IF the republic just needs to pass that bill and then they have millions of soldiers at the ready, his reaction on Geonosis don't make sense. SO therefore it seems that the various member worlds of the republic don't have much in the ways of armies. That is why he is surprised that the Jedi suddenly have 200 000 soldiers. He didn't think the republic could muster that many on short notice.
Again millions of worlds and 200 000 soldiers is a HUGE army.

This is more straw-men. Have I claimed that a MAJORITY of the senate thinks that the seps might start some form of hostility against the republic? NO.
I argued that Mace is worried that the seps might become hostile if talks with them fail.
And if this happens, the Jedi won't be able to protect the republic.

What I take from that, is that the seps either has or could easily get some military capabilities.
Since we know that the TF and others are supportive of them and they have armies, I conclude that the seps are a potential military threat to the republic. And if they attack, the Jedi would be ill equipped to fight them.

Also, that some senators don't see the seps as an imminent threat does not automatically mean they have no army. They could have an army but those senators just think that they won't start a war.
Ex. Russia has an army and they have built it up over the last few years. Some countries are worried about this and think they need to build up their defenses as well but others disagree. Those that disagree don't do so because they think Russia has no army, they disagree because they think Russia won't attack.
So the fact that some in the senate don't view the seps as a threat does NOT have to mean that they are without soldiers. It could just as easily mean that these senators thinks that the seps won't start a war unless provoked.

Really, so according to you, if the seps blew up the senate, killing all inside and then attacked the republic. It be impossible for the individual armies of the various member worlds to band together because the senate did not ok it. Would the individual armies even fight?
Is this your argument? That without a senate ok, even when they are attacked, the various worlds can't work together?

Also, you seem to argue that as soon as the MCA law is passed, the republic can pull on the local forces and would have a big army pretty quickly.

But earlier you said;

So IF the clones are a sticking point, why not just pass the regular MCA law and pull on the local armies?
If the republic could quickly gather up a big army just from the member worlds, why get stuck talking about the use of clones when they have so many regular soldiers available?

Again, we are talking about 200 000 soldiers ready with a million more underway.
Bail was convinced that the seps would attack but the senate would take too long debating the clones issue.
So why not put the clones to one side and just pass the old MCA law and begin to pull on their regular armies so that they are not totally defenseless?
This further supports my stance that what ever forces the individual member worlds has, they are rather insignificant. Again, millions of worlds and 200 000 soldiers is huge.
It seems the clones were all they had, other than the Jedi.

Ok, so if Aliens attacked the Earth, the individual armies of the various countries on Earth can't work together unless there is a UN vote? So Alien invaders would first blow up the UN building as that would leave Earth pretty much defenseless?

If Russia attacks England, the US won't help to defend it unless there is a UN vote?

Ok, where in the movie is it said that the republic would attack the seps worlds if they break free? Specific lines please.
And as long as the MCA is not passed, the Republic can't attack the seps because the republic has no army.
Also, is the republic motto, "Stay in the Republic or die"? I would think the Jedi would have problems with that.
Don't the republic have any experience with systems either joining or leaving the republic?
Given how old it is, I find this a bit far fetched.
I can buy that people would want to prevent the republic from being split in two and would try to keep the seps as part of the republic. But from that it is quite a leap to attacking any world that wants to leave.

And your opinion is based on the notion that if the seps launch an all out attack on the republic, none of the individual armies can work together to defend themselves unless there has been a senate vote. Which is an even more short sighted stance to take.

If all that needs to happen is a vote and then the republic will have millions of soldiers at the ready, then the republic is far from defenseless.
Earth has a lot of armies and is far from defenseless and if Earth is attacked, I would think some of those armies would join up and fight.

Except that Mace specifically says that if things go south, there won't be enough Jedi to PROTECT the republic. This could mean protect as in attacked by the seps.
Also, if the seps break free and the MCA has not been passed. The republic has no army and neither does the seps according to you. So who will fight this war when there are no armies on either side?
This is a problem with your argument, you say that there will be war but if neither side has any armies, how can there be war?

The republic can't start anything as long as the MCA has not been passed. Once it does, the republic will have loads of soldiers and the Jedi will have help defending it. So Mace can not be talking about that.
So is he then talking about the seps turning violent to break free from the republic? Possibly. And as long as the MCA has not been passed the only defense the Republic has are the Jedi. I don't see what is so unreasonable about this.

Bye
Old Stoneface

 

There are possible explanations to this. The Separatist meeting, as you state, is meant to be a secret. They are not on a military base, they gathered in an Outer Rim planet secretly to discuss a treaty. The Separatist Council had no reason to expect an army there. No defensive strategy is needed, they are businessmen doing business.

Why should it? Would they just blast the ship off the sky?

Count Dooku was clearly expecting the war to begin. The rest of the Separatist Council wasn`t, but they were being manipulated, of course. So if you think that Geonosis should have a radar, then either: (a) there wasn`t enough time for a Geonosian to warn the Council that the fleet had arrived before they attacked the arena, or (b) Count Dooku was warned, but since he wanted the war to break, he didn`t warn his fellow councilmembers.

Jango Fett was just returning "home". Someone following him was obviously expected by Dooku. Either way, the Geonosians have no reason to blast a ship out of the sky.

I don`t think it was a secret that the Geonosians built droids for the Trade Federation. All of those droids used in TPM had to come from somewhere. The secret was the meeting and the army`s alliegence to Count Dooku, and the meeting has really just started. The rest of the Council wasn`t there before. They hadn`t even signed the deal and become a part of the Separatist Council yet.

 

I just finished watching this film. I love it more than ever. But I won't defend it. I'm happy just to enjoy it for my sake.

 

Just to chime in again on the general topic...

This film works way better as a relatively small piece of a grander picture, than a realistic character study, IMO. The overarching themes, for the most part, are done pretty well. There are some great character moments, sure, but I don't get the feel that I am watching people as much as any of the other five. Particularly some of the writing and acting for Anakin. I get what the film is trying to say, and Anakin as a symbolic contrast to the coldness of Vader in the OT seems very intentional. The film just seems a little uneven, maybe even confused in it's approach to it's characterisation.

ESB for example adds an immense amount of the "meat" of the OT, where AOTC, as also the middle film of it's trilogy, doesn't seem as effective at enriching the rest of the PT so much (for me, anyway). I'm sure many will disagree, but I get the feeling that it is "stalling", waiting for ROTS to start. ESB on the other hand, while a much better standalone film in itself, is also a great lead in to ROTJ, and a core for ROTJ to expand on a little and satisfyingly conclude. To put it bluntly, It doesn't seem like a place holder for the next film until the very last scene.

One of the strengths of TPM and AOTC over ROTS is probably some aspects of the pacing; the first two films take their time to linger on themes, ROTS is basically the PT on drugs. There is more going on in ROTS than it at first appears, and this speed/style of delivering the narrative can be a little overwhelming on one watch. ROTS should definitely have been longer, but I still find that unlike with the OT, it is this final film of the PT that has the majority of the substance. It is just Ep1/Ep2 take their time because they seem to not panic; ROTS could tie up the lose ends - but then in production of ROTS I think they found that they could make a much more effective film by condensing some themes and events, and even ignoring other plot points entirely. I haven't read the AOTC novel, but I feel there is arguably more fulfillment in exploring extra material for ROTS than any of the other films; the DVD and Bluray deleted scenes, the script and novelisation, the EU, commentaries and interviews. There is so much to know, it really encourages avid fandom.


The imagery in AOTC is some of the best in the films IMO. There is a lot to look at; the cloudy skies of Coruscant in the day, or the bustling city at night, perpetual storm on Kamino, the warm hues of Naboo.
There is a lot of use of the colour orange; the firelight on Anakin's face during both his confession of love to Padme and his mother's death on Tatooine, the sunset during Anakin's speeder-bike search for Shmi, Dooku's arrival back on Coruscant in the evening, and Geonosis generally. Other users have far more to say on this than me, but it is generally an aesthetically pleasing film.


Symbolism and metaphor in AOTC makes up for a lot of issues caused when the dialogue in it is applied literally. Double-meanings are abound in the film, a few examples;

- "I will not let this Republic, that has stood for a thousand years, be split in two." (ie, united under an oppressive Empire).

- OBI-WAN: "Dreams pass in time." ANAKIN: "I'd much rather dream about Padme."

- "That's Anakin's tracking signal alright, but it's coming from Tatooine! What in blazes is he doing there, I told him to stay on Naboo... I do hope nothing has happened to him." (following Shmi's death scene)

- "Not again. Obi-Wan is going to kill me!"

Others have commented (a lot) on some of the recurring themes and symbolism, such as the droid-factory scene (which tbh is one of my least favourite scenes on the surface) being ripe with metaphor. Threepio losing his head. Anakin's saber being cut in half as a "castration" metaphor connected to his future with Obi-Wan (the quote just above). And some of the main characters surrounded by the swirling chaos of the machinery of the factory perhaps linked to their involvement in the greater scheming by the Sith, it's machinations happening over the entire galaxy.

I still love the inversion of the Battle of Hoth and the battle of Geonosis.
Geonosis - Near end of film, desert ground battle, dominant Republic invades causing Seperatists to flee their base, walkers and clonetroopers.
Hoth - Near beginning of film, snow ground battle, dominant Empire invades causing Rebels to flee their base, walkers and stormtroopers.


I think the film has a lot of depth, but I can't fully invest in it when look at it less analytically.

 

Just watched AOTC again, have some observations that might fit here. I've posted some of it before though.



- Palpatine seems to have something to do with Anakin and Padme getting together, and the Jedi Council seem to unwittingly contribute.

PADME: "Chancellor, if I may comment, I do not believe..."
PALPATINE: "...the situation is that serious? Oh, but I do, Senator. I realise all to well additional security may be disruptive for you, but perhaps someone you're familiar with... an old friend, like... Master Kenobi!"
MACE: "That's possible. He's just returned from a border dispute on Ansion."

Palpatine puts Anakin and Obi-Wan with Padme with the Council's approval, then after another assassination attempt, Anakin is assigned by the Council to protect her.

ANAKIN: "As the leader of the opposition, it will be very difficult to get Senator Amidala to leave the Capital."
YODA: "Until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect."
...
PALPATINE: "I will speak with her. Senator Amidala is not one to refuse an executive order. I know her well enough to assure you of that."

Trivially, Yoda's sincere concern for Padme - "Seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart." - is pretty much the inverse of Palpatine's "Do it for me, m'lady. The thought of losing you... is unbearable." Particularly when you see the end of ROTS, Yoda's great sadness at the loss of Padme compared to Sidious smiling after delivering the news to Vader.

Mace mentions several times in the movie that Anakin must protect Padme, and that Anakin is ready for the assignment ("Remember Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance back to the force.")
MACE: "Anakin, escort the Senator to her home on Naboo. She'll be safer there."
MACE: "Stay where you are. Protect the Senator at all costs. That is your first priority." (Significantly, it is Padme that encites Anakin to disobey the order and come to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan. She also intitiates their relationship when they think they are going to die.)
MACE: "Where is your apprentice?" OBI-WAN: "Escorting Senator Amidala back home to Naboo." (Unaware of their secret wedding.)

Obviously, in Anakin's mind, he is protecting Padme when he turns.

Furthermore, because Sidious is ultimately behind the conflict, and has influenced the decision for Padme to go away from Coruscant, he is actually orchestrating a situation where there will be less opposition to the GAR. Jar Jar, in Padme's place, is even the one who proposes the Chancellor's emergency powers. Palpatine used the Queen's current greater influence than his own in TPM to get a "sympathy vote" making him Chancellor, sends the opposition off-world in AOTC so she misses the vote, then in ROTS declares himself ruler of the galaxy while Padme can only powerlessly watch on.

Lastly, on the subject of Mace ordering Anakin to stay on Tatooine with Padme, this seems kind of a recurring thing related to Padme.
Mace orders Anakin to stay on Tatooine in AOTC, they disobey by going to Geonosis and are captured. Mace and the Jedi have to rescue them.
Mace tells Anakin to wait in the Council chambers in ROTS while they go to arrest Palpatine. Anakin disobeys because of fear of losing Padme, and gets to the office at the worst time, Mace dies and Anakin turns.
Then, Anakin asks Padme "Please, wait for me (on Coruscant)." Padme is too worried and follows him to Mustafar, which ends tragically.





- "Well if droids could think, there'd be none of us here would there?"
Obi-Wan discussing the Kamino saber dart that will lead him to the Clone Army, which will - being capable of creative thought but not truly independent - betray the Jedi in the next film. Hence, "none of us here" becomes directly applicable to the Jedi.





- This film continues to parallel the characters of Padme and Palpatine.

---- They are both Senators from Naboo. Padme goes (decreasingly) from Queen, to Senator, to essentially powerless. Palpatine goes (increasingly) from Senator, to Supreme Chancellor, to Emperor.

---- Both characters have red royal guards when they are "in office" (Queen (TPM) and Emperor (ROTS-ROTJ)). Additionally, Amidala often has white make-up against a black dress, similar (yet not) to Sidious post-transformation.

---- AOTC - ANAKIN: "I heard they even tried to amend the constitution so you could stay in office."
PADME: "I was relieved when my two terms were up.
ROTS - Several deleted scenes reference Palpatine's amendments to the Constitution which increase his powers. Padme and the delegation of 2000 even confront Palpatine, and he falsely promises a return to democracy after the war.

---- Double identities for "security" - Padme/Queen Amidala vs Palpatine/Sidious.

---- Padme brings peace to Naboo in TPM, Sidious brings "peace" to the galaxy.

---- AOTC - ANAKIN (to Padme): "What can I do? I will do anything that you ask."
ROTS - ANAKIN (to Sidious): "I will do anything you ask. Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."
Interesting display of Anakin's shifting loyalty. In AOTC, as essentially still a good person, he obeys Padme's momentary request that they do not pursue a relationship. In ROTS however, he turns to save Padme, but will end up with only Sidious.





- Obi-Wan's frustration at Anakin's recurring saber loss/destruction actually has some interesting implications.

OBI-WAN: "Try not to lose it. This weapon is your life!" (The wording of this seems to be quite symbolic)
ANAKIN: "I try Master."
OBI-WAN: "Why do I get the feeling you are going to be the death of me?"

*Realises saber is destroyed*
ANAKIN: "Not again! Obi-Wan is going to kill me."

*Anakin leaps up and blocks Dooku's death-blow against Obi-Wan*
DOOKU: "Brave of you boy. Would of thought you'd learned your lesson."
ANAKIN: "I am a slow learner."
OBI-WAN: "Anakin!" *Throws his saber to Anakin*
Anakin fights Dooku for a bit with two sabers, before the green saber is sliced in two. He continues the duel with the blue, eventually losing his arm to Dooku fighting with the same saber Obi-Wan lost with.
(Consider Obi-Wan killing Maul in TPM - he jumps out of the pit and uses his Master's green saber to bisect Maul. Yet when Anakin shares a saber with his master it only gets him dismembered.)

Finally, there is a link to all this in ESB.
First, Luke is dismembered by Vader fighting with a saber Obi-Wan gave him, much like Anakin. But much more significantly (and I think more widely understood), Luke loses Anakin's old saber when he is dismembered by Vader, and told Vader is actually his father. The saber is lost with Luke's image of his father, and part of his innocence. Luke now constructing his own saber is of course a right of passage that signifies he is his own man.





- Quick random thing between trilogies...
AOTC - OBI-WAN: "You're using her as bait?"
ANAKIN: "It was her idea!"
ESB - LANDO: "Vader's set a trap for him."
LEIA: "And we're the bait!"
Lol love how contrasting stuff like this is.




- Maybe obvious, but I like the mention "It's unthinkable, that after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still Viceroy of the Trade Federation." Anakin witnesses this conversation, and it's not much of a stretch that it would influence his belief "the system doesn't work". In the next film, as Palpatine declares himself Emperor of the galaxy, creating a system that bypasses democracy entirely, Anakin as Vader kills the Seperatist leaders, personally leaving Gunray to last, as a nod to the events of TPM and AOTC.





- Some dialogue reinforces that the Jedi end up in the same boat as the Separatists as far as the Empire is concerned.

AOTC - "What you are proposing could be construed as treason."
ROTS - ANAKIN: "They want me to spy on the Chancellor? That's treason!"

AOTC - OBI-WAN: "Traitor!"
ROTS - PALPATINE: "He's a traitor!"
MACE: "He is the traitor!"





- Naboo is constantly portrayed as a kind of safe haven in the PT.
The TF invading in TPM is presented as quite a unpleasant thing for a peaceful planet. Padme and Palpatine use their connection to this small planet to gain sympathy in the Senate. Coruscant is hyped as a glorious destination that will solve all the main characters' problems, and they seem to gravitate towards it in the films, but over the course of the PT it proves to be a symbol of false hope, egs, Assassination attempts on Padme, Anakin's turn, Order 66, and the declaration of the Empire all happen there.
Padme ends up going back to Naboo in TPM - PALPATINE: "Please, your highness, stay here, where it's safe!" Sneaky.

AOTC - MACE: "Escort Senator Amidala back to her home on Naboo. She'll be safer there."
ROTS - PADME: "Hold me. Like you did by the lake on Naboo. So long ago, when there was nothing but our love. No politics, no plotting, no war."

Another example of Coruscant holding false restitute comes after Anakin's turn -
ANAKIN: "I'm fine, I'm fine. I came to see if you and the baby were safe."
...
ANAKIN: "Wait for me until I return. Things will be different, I promise! Please, wait for me."
Padme follows Anakin to Mustafar out of worry for him, an even worse place that symbolises hell for the lovers.
She even tries to appeal to Anakin's good side by pleading for him to "Come away with me. Help us raise our child. Leave everything else behind while we still can!" which reminds me a little of the "Hold me" quote. Quite depressing.





- AOTC - ANAKIN: "They're like animals and I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"
ROTS - VADER: "I HATE you!"
Pretty sad that Anakin has fallen this far, the Tuskens in comparison to his once brother.




- I mentioned the recurring use of orange in this film in the last post, the last scenes on Coruscant of course takes advantage of the sunset, Dooku's arrival and the Jedi's uncertainty regarding the beginning of the war goes quite fittingly with it.
Finally, Yoda's last line is pretty ironic because of these quotes:

MACE: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the force is diminished."
YODA: "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will."
...
DOOKU: "Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious."
OBI-WAN: "I don't believe you."
...
OBI-WAN: "Do you believe what Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate? It doesn't feel right."
YODA: "Joined the dark side, Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."
MACE: "Nevertheless, I think we should keep a closer eye on the Senate."
...
YODA: "Victory you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."
Of course, the shroud is stronger than ever.

 

Hey HD what you do think of this-

From the other thread re "favorite little detail of the Prequels?" :


Obi Wan, Padme, Anakin (off screen is C3PO and R2D2) - AOTC

Obi Wan's desperate hour. Attack on him (ie the Republic) - Just before the Infamous Clone Wars. Anakin feels he can't help because he's under the authority of the Mace and the JC and it's too far for the JC to help. While this is playing played Bail Organa happens to be involved at the other side with Mace.



Obi Wan, Leia, Luke (C3PO and R2D2)


Leia's desperate hour (attack on Leia, ie the Rebellion) - After the infamous Clone wars . Luke feels he can't help because he's under his uncle's authority and Alderaan is too far. Leia talks about her "father" who Obi Wan "served" during the Clone Wars.


MJ

 

Interesting. You also have these two captures (after the messages) leading to Obi-Wan calling Dooku "Traitor!" and Vader stating to Leia "You are part of the Rebel alliance and a traitor!"

Although there is also a relevant parallel in ROTS, Obi-Wan receiving a holo-transmission from Bail Organa after Order 66, something ANH can be hinting at.

 

Thanks. Yes I had also put Obi Wan's communique in Rots in mind when I initially posted in the other thread. It is a natural progression linking the Saga more tightly. What I like about the Aotc link is also that R2 transmits the msg of Obi Wan that prompts Padme to convince Anakin to help, as R2 transmits to Obi Wan that prompts him to tell Luke to help.

Lastly and poignantly the above scene is right after they leave the company of Owen Lars. Just love it.

MJ

 

This film is brilliant.

I'm 46, an OT fan since the age of 8 in '77. Perhaps surprisingly for some, I enjoy the prequels immensely despite certain flaws. But for me, II:AOTC is the best of the PT. It's especially powerful when viewed back-to-back with IV:ANH. There are a number of callbacks to ANH in AOTC, which in my view enriches the experience of watching both movies.

First among its many noteworthy facets is that AOTC is the most overtly romantic of all the SW films. That means I'm going to love it by default, as I'm a sucker for well-made romance films. The lush photography, the sweeping music and the beauty of the two leads (or three if you count Kenobi) makes for a very senses-pleasing experience. I'll defend the lovelorn dialogue in the fireside scene and elsewhere as being totally on-point for a pair of young people desperately in need of physical affection. Padme has clearly cut herself off from her emotions for most of the story, a self-repression which will only twist natural desires into something beyond her capacity to control. Anakin is obsessed with this angelic figure from his past, whom he elevates onto a deific pedestal, and whom -- owing to his own arrogance and inflated sense of self -- he feels he must possess.

On the one hand it's an age-old story of star-crossed lovers, which means they're doomed from the start despite all the gorgeous music and imagery. On the other hand it's something utterly unique in film history: a warrior-priest sworn to never marry defies his order to take a mother-figure to wife, while sinister sub-plots swirl about them unheeded. This bizarre story is summed up in the film's second-to-final image: Anakin, now husband, takes in his metal robot fingers the soft fleshy hand of Padme, now wife... and she doesn't even bat an eye. She's too wrapped up in love-feelings to notice -- or care -- that something is dreadfully wrong with this scenario.

All of this, of course, unfolds against a thrilling action-adventure backdrop worthy of a Ray Harryhausen fantasy movie. The action scenes in this film are par excellence, from the vertiginous speeder chase to the Jedi-v-bounty hunter shoot-out, to the asteroid blaster-chase, to the monster-strewn arena, to the explosive clone-v-robot military combat, to the three-fold lightsaber battle at the climax. Holy Whills! Attack of the Clones indeed. We've almost forgotten about the title of the movie, certain this must be the end of the story, when the clones descend from the sky at Yoda's command. The entire last act of the film is one of the best in genre cinema.

As usual with this kind of thing, I'll never understand the hate that gets leveled at this movie. I'm in Star Wars heaven through every frame and musical cue. Is the acting a little bland from time to time? Well, yes. Are C-3PO's droid-factory hijinx and bad puns a bit out-of-place and poorly conceived? YEAH. But no film is perfect, and at worst -- at worst! -- these minor missteps combine to remove a full star from the rating. That still leaves 4 stars of wonder, beauty, intrigue, mystery and thrills to leave me breathless. Every. Single. Time. I. Watch.

 

You have my review of Attack of the Clones here. I've just watched it this week-end two times: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...rs-thoughts-and-views.50033269/#post-52682669

 

It looks good for a film released in 2015.

 

Hey it's great to hear from someone close in age who has this response!

Way way back then and ever since 'the clone wars' were mentioned, a little light was turned on in my mind about what this was what they would look like etc, and after having sat through AOTC I felt privaleged to still be young at heart enough to finally see this actually unfold before my eyes.

I know a lot of people didn't / don't like it - OK - sorry, but back then in '77 I was really into sci-fi and magazines like Omni - and the classic cover artwork from the 70's that showed huge ships and orbs in space, and wierd alien armies in cool space armour. There was a strange almost unsetting futuristic feel to it all and I sort of imagined the clone wars as looking like that - and that maybe in the future it would be possible to make a film that would be that good - yeah even as a youngster I felt the limitations of 'practical technology' !

And there I was in 2002 - in the future (you have to remember from '77 the year 2000 and beyond was supposed to be that sci-fi future) seeing this crazy stuff in this film that made some things seam so real, it was almost as if I was watching a documentary !

AOTC ?
Brilliant. Nobody else is going to make a film as mad as this again. Robots, an insect race, clones and space wizards battling it out on a desert planet !?!
What's not to like?

 

I think AOTC is awesome. It's my favorite of the PT.

 

Well, that must be the most well-written and positive retrospective I've read about Attack of the Clones. Very nice write up.

I've recently watched the first two prequels and it seems that I've been enjoying and appreciating them more than I initially thought that I would, especially Attack of the Clones, which I kept a bad memory from when I first watched it 10 years ago.