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PT Can you imagine Qui-Gon working with Dooku?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by enigmaticjedi, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2011
    In AOTC, this conversation between Dooku and Obi-Wan mentions Qui-Gon

    Dooku: "I wish he (Qui-Gon) were still alive. I could use his help now."

    Obi-Wan: "Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you."

    Dooku: "Don't be so sure. You forget that he was once my padawan, just as you were once his."

    It's more likely that Qui-Gon would not choose to work with Dooku in the CIS, but for the sake of this thread, suppose that he did.

    How would it work? Would you see Qui-Gon acting like Dooku? Would he be Dooku's apprentice again?
     
  2. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I absolutely think Qui could and would work with Dooku. They both follow their own intuitions, they both understood the Jedi way was not as sound as they claimed.
     
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  3. SatineNaberrie

    SatineNaberrie Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 28, 2014
    I am not really sure how it could have all played out.

    If Qui-gon lived perhaps Dooku would have lived. Maybe Qui-gon would have helped prevent Dooku from doing some of the things he did.
    Dooku may have not taken somethings as far as he did.
    Qui-gon could have been a Luke like character to Dooku.
    I don't think Qui-gon and Dooku would have worked under Sideous together.

    Maybe they could have changed the Jedi order together or do their own thing.
     
  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Qui-Gon, despite his erratic moments and disagreements with the Council, still respected its decisions, still followed the Jedi way, and still served the Republic. As such, I don't see him ever joining Dooku, specially knowing what Obi-Wan eventually discovered on Geonosis.
     
  5. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    No, I can't see it. Unless he turns to the dark side, and I don't see any particular reason to imagine that.

    Qui-Gon didn't have Dooku's lust for power. Any talk about conquering the galaxy or taking it over or any of that business and Qui-Gon is out.

    Qui-Gon really didn't like the likes of Gunray and his ilk, and would not tolerate working with them. He knows that they are the problem with the Republic, so I don't see him siding with them to somehow make the Republic better.

    There's an amusing bit in the novel Darth Plagueis, I believe "Hego Damask" (Darth Plagueis' civilian identity) sits down with Dooku and Qui-Gon and tries to talk politics with them, and Qui-Gon just gets up and leaves in disgust. (that's how it happened, right?)

    I really don't see Qui-Gon taking any interest in the dark side or the Sith, either. Any whiff of that and Qui-Gon is out.

    So what does Dooku have to offer Qui-Gon? Nothing.
     
  6. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Except one was good and one was evil.
    Exactly. If Qui-Gon refused to help the Naboo by fighting in a war against the TF, something tell me he wouldn't join Dooku's warmongers in a false war against the Republic.
     
  7. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    To some. Not me. All are misguided in SW to some degree. The way it's shown hero and villain have no meaning for me. All are grey.
     
  8. Among the Clouds

    Among the Clouds Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 18, 2001
    I don't see it happening. It's hard for me to even speculate on the what if aspect because I can't get my head around the idea that Qui-Gon would join the dark side and help the Sith with their scheme of creating a fake threat in order to take over the Republic.
     
  9. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 1, 2014
    I don't think Qui-Gonn would have worked with him. I think Dooku was lying to Obi-Wan simply for the convenience of getting a Jedi on his side for the up and coming war. Dooku only wanted him for strategic importance to help weaken the Jedi further by learning of their secrets. The Sith were already planning for the Clone Wars to occur.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    After four hours of pointless back-and-forth, Plagueis began to feel like the victimized one. When Count Vemec finally called a break in the proceedings, and many of the participants headed to the food tables, Plagueis found himself alone with Dooku, Sifo-Dyas, and Qui-Gon Jinn, and drew the cloak of the profane over himself.
    “Bickering is becoming all too common,” he remarked to no one in particular. “In the absence of resolution, it will be the outlying systems that will suffer most.”
    Dooku nodded sagely. “The hyperwave repeater should have been a Republic undertaking. The Senate erred in allowing the HoloNet to be privatized.”
    Qui-Gon Jinn’s ears pricked up, and he glanced at Plagueis. “Discontent in the outer systems is in keeping with the aims of Damask Holdings, is it not, Magister?”
    “On the contrary,” Plagueis replied in a composed voice. “We advocate for the interests of neglected worlds when and wherever we can.”
    The tall Jedi wasn’t persuaded to back off. “By supporting the likes of the Trade Federation and other cartels?”
    “The Trade Federation has brought progress to many a backward world, Master Jinn.”
    “Through exploitation that leads ultimately to ruin.”
    Plagueis spread his hands. “Progress often comes at a cost. On occasion a world will go through growth pangs as a result, but to call the end result ruination is overstating the case.” He studied Qui-Gon. “Surely the Jedi have had to ignore consequences of the same magnitude in enforcing the laws of the Republic.”
    Sifo-Dyas’s dark brows formed a V. A short, muscular man, he had a broad nose, prominent cheekbones, and lustrous black hair cinched in a high topknot. His hands were large and callused, as if from physical labor. Concern shone in his brown eyes. “It is a misconception that we serve only the Republic, Magister. Our Order serves the greater good.”
    “As the Order defines it,” Plagueis said, only to wave the remark away. “But then you have the advantage of being able to act in concert with the Force, where the rest of us are left to grope in the dark for what is just and right. Damask Holdings tries, nonetheless, to take the long view.”
    “As do the Jedi,” Qui-Gon said. “But in several instances where we have had to resolve conflicts, it is your name that has surfaced.”
    Plagueis shrugged. “The wealthy are held to higher standards than the poor.”
    Dooku thought about it. “I blame the Senate for encouraging the galaxy to turn on credit.”
    Plagueis glanced from Dooku to Qui-Gon. “I’m willing to concede Master Jinn’s point that the Muuns have cornered the market on finance, if he is willing to concede that the Jedi have cornered the market on ethics."
    Qui-Gon granted Plagueis a dignified bow. “And so we find ourselves on different sides, Magister.”
    “Not necessarily. Perhaps we are after the same thing.”
    “Different paths to the same destination? It’s a clever rationalization, but I refuse to accept it.” Qui-Gon placed his hands in the opposite sleeves of his robe. “If you’ll excuse me …”
    Dooku smiled lightly as the tall Jedi sauntered off. “My former apprentice does not mince words.”
    “Frank talk is a rarity these days,” Plagueis said. “The Senate could learn from beings like Qui-Gon Jinn.”
    Dooku made a glum face. “The Senate listens only to itself. Endlessly, and without purpose. If it and Supreme Chancellor Darus are going to perpetuate a climate where injustice can advance, then it will.”
    Sifo-Dyas grew uneasy. “The Rotunda is an arena even we don’t enter,” he said in a level voice, “except as spectators.”
    Plagueis could not restrain a smile. “But you have, from time to time, been known to lobby.”
     
  11. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    Well, if Qui-Gonn had lived then he could still have worked with Dooku without either turning to the Sith - his death was the final straw that finally got Dooku to leave the Order. He may have been curious about the Dark Side at this stage but he hadn't turned yet - Maul's death was a drawback that Sidious hadn't planned on happening just yet. Dooku may very well have approached Qui-Gonn at this stage and GQ may have listened to him but if he'd lived QG was fully intending to train Anakin himself and never seemed the type to involve himself in long term plans and political scheming - he was all about 'living in the moment'. If Dooku could have been persuaded that Anakin actually was the chosen one he may not have turned at all as Anakin would have taken up his attention as a viable alternative to the Council that Dooku no longer believed in - GQ provides the day to day training, Dooku trains the boy in the political realities of being a leader (as the Chosen One would be.)

    Qui-Gonn was only ever in one movie but the more I think about it the more it seems that his death is where everything really went wrong for the Republic...
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In TCW there's hints that Dooku had already taken the "Tyranus" identity before Qui-Gon's death - he worked with the Pykes under that name to orchestrate Sifo-Dyas's assassination - during the Valorum administration.
     
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  13. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    To me, Qui-Gon embodies the heart of Jedihood. I can't see him abandoning the Jedi path, ever.

    If Qui-Gon had lived, he would have approached, or been approached by, Dooku. They would've discussed the corruption in the Senate and Dooku would've tried to get Qui-Gon to join him. Qui-Gon would've understood Dooku's reasoning, but he would've sensed that staying with the Jedi would be the right thing for him to do.
    Sooner or later, he would also have sensed the dark side in Dooku and felt compelled to turn against him.

    That's what I believe.
     
  14. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    I confess that I had missed/forgotten those hints, but I don't think Dooku went straight from 'idealist' to 'Sith' - it would have been gradual and Qui-Gonn may have spotted that, knowing his old Master pretty well you would hope. I definitely don't think QG would EVER have joined the Sith, his issue was with the Council specifically, he certainly didn't think there was anything inherently wrong with the Jedi as a concept (unlike Dooku and Anakin later came to believe.) Of course, it's not inconceivable that were Dooku to turn despite GQ's hypothetical survival he and Sidious would have manipulated QG into furthering their own plans. Alternatively they may have ended up killing him themselves to get their hands on Anakin, who would be out of reach of the Council if he were travelling with QG...
     
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  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the EU, it does tend to stress how different they are. Qui-Gon concludes near the end of his apprenticeship (in Legacy of the Jedi) that he doesn't love Dooku - their relationship is very much student-teacher, and not "brothers". And toward the end of Obi-Wan's, he's thinking that he and Obi-Wan are likely to maintain far closer ties, after Obi-Wan becomes Knight.

    In Darth Plagueis, Dooku laments his own failings as a teacher - that Qui-Gon has become "a solitary and secretive rogue" and that Komari Vosa turned to the Dark Side.
     
  16. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    I can see it. Search your feelings...something isn't right here.

    The innate humanity tthat Qui-Gon appears to have is down to Liam Neeson's playing of him. Scratch beneath the surface and a very different character emerges. Let me give you some pointers.

    He is dogmatic and unswerving in his own view of the Force; "You must see it. He is the Chosen One" - he broaches no dissent to his opinions. To the point that he is dismissive of his own padawan's insights.For example he dismisses Obi-Wan's sense of something else on the TF, and gives him the cold-shoulder for questioning his choices (he only speaks to Obi-Wan once Obi-Wan has aopologised to him..)

    Talking of Obi-Wan...viewers see him as arrogant because of his line about pathetic creatures....but listen (and watch) Qui-Gon. He doesn't deny that Jar-Jar is a pathetic creature..in fact it can be argued that he is angry at Obi-Wan because this isn't another pathetic creature...this is the Chosen One...he's special. That's what he says to Obi-Wan. He's angry that Obi-Wan is referring to Anakin as a pathetic creature, not railing against the use of the term. Obi-Wan has learned that from his Master..let me elaborate; what are Qui-Gon's first words to Jar-Jar? "Are you brainless" and then, a little later "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent". In Schmi's home he humiliates Jar-Jar by catching his tongue...where his behaviour may be perfectly reasonable for his species and society. He constantly talks down to Jar-Jar, like a naughty child. Now....while you might argue that Jar-Jar is annoying, Qui-Gon's behaviour toward him is devoid of respect.

    In his final scene...how much care does he show to his clearly distraught padawan....who has just faced and defeated a Sith? The only thing he does is to use Obi-Wan's loyalty to him to demand of him that he train 'the Chosen One'...despite what that might cost Obi-Wan. And..of course training Anakin worked out so very well for the galaxy, didn't it?

    You want to see Jedi arrogance? I suggest you look no further than Qui-Gon. Liam Neeson's characterisation of him hides some very real flaws as I see it.
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He does have some humility though - admitting that Obi-Wan is a much wiser man than him.
     
  18. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    He rewards him with praise ...only once he has apologised. Obi-Wan has to seek him out and make that apology. You see humility..I see the politics of coercion.
     
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  19. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 10, 2015
    Most likely possible - although consider - Qui-Gon Jinn in the end in the Clone Wars he did return to 'advise and guide' Obi-Wan Kenobi and even Master Yoda - and explaining in the end it is Compassion and Selflessness that is the key to Immortality and the Sith in the end are Selfish and Greedy hence they cannot achieve true Immortality ...

    Plus - Plus - if the fact Qui-Gon Jinn fought against Darth Maul ... and whilst he died - well he didn't succumb to the Dark Side of the Force - I mean in any duel then again surely there's the risk of succumbing to the Dark Side of the Force eh?

    Although - then again it was more probably of Sifo-Dyas and Count Dooku one could consider thinking had Sifo Dyas lived ... and well looking at the EU and the Clone Wars versions of Sifo Dyas - doesn't he look abit like Qui-Gon Jinn to an extent?
     
  20. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    Things would have been so much simpler if someone hadn't mistyped Sido-Dyas as Sifo-Dyas, then there wouldn't have been the massive temptation to make Sifo-Dyas a real person and not just an alias of Sidious.
     
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  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Liam Neeson didn't decide his dialogue and actions.

    He sticks with his beliefs. Beliefs which are later proven to be correct.

    He disagrees with him and explains why. That's not being dismissive.

    He didn't say Obi-Wan was wrong, he just said that he didn't sense anything. When Obi-Wan explains that's he's not referring to the mission, the advice Qui-Gon gives doesn't contradict Obi-Wan's feeling.

    When Obi-Wan apologizes, he explains why the fault was on him.

    When does he show that anger?

    Based on what, exactly? And Jar Jar was humiliating everyone at the table (not on purpose, of course) due to his (lack of) manners.

    When he's being child-like.

    I'd argue that he's the one who respects him the most. He (and later Padmé) see value on him where others don't.

    Seriously?

    Had I read that before deciding to reply and I wouldn't have wasted my time.
     
  22. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Eeerm...exactly my point. Look beyond Liam Neeson's characteristion and look instead at his actual dialogue and actions.

    Hmmm...would that being "proven to be correct" be the at the time he stopped Mace from killing Palpatine? Or would it be as he knelt down and pledged himself to said Sith Lord? Or would it be when he enters the Temple and helps cut down the Jedi?

    When was it proven correct? At the end where Luke saves Anakin? When Anakin finally recognises the emptiness of his actions? When the rebels defeat the Empire he has helped hoist upon the galaxy?

    "...that should be enough for you.Now get on board." not dismissing?

    He is dismissive of Obi-Wan's senses..

    Exactly. Qui-Gon only speaks to Obi-Wan once Obi-Wan has supplicated himself before his Master.

    I see...so you don't think he was? Or perhaps you are nit-picking...maybe you mean anger is too strong a term, that actually he was simply, in some way, merely disappointed? What do you think he was thinking at the time he responds to Obi-Wan? Was he pleased with him? What, exactly, are you arguing?

    What do you mean based on what? That he was humiliated? Based on his down-trodden and embarrassed demeanor. Or do you mean in terms of what might be sociably acceptable? Well...you've answered that yourself. He's not deliberately 'humiliating' the others ...yet Qui-Gon chooses that method to alter his behaviour?

    All the time.

    He thinks he may be of some use to him.....is that really respect for him?

    Errrmm...yes, really.

    Lesson learned then.....make sure you read through the whole. Of course you could, if you were so dismissive of this by the end have simply not posted your reply.... so perhaps this might appear to be more a case of 'I don't really have an answer to this'. What else does Qui-Gon do in this scene? Does he do anything for his pasawan or does he simply use his loyalty and ditress to make him swear to train Anakin...regardless of the potential cost to his padawan (who he had earlier tried to dispose of in the Council...just to really hammer that aspect home).
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I'm tempted to believe you but you flip flop quite often with that grey argument when it suits your needs.
     
  24. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Agreed. I always found that scene to be a bit cold on Qui-Gon's part. It's like your Dad dying in your arms and the only thing he can think of to say to you is "please take care of that kid we just met."
     
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  25. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    I think if Qui Gon were to "follow" Dooku, it wouldn't be to Sidious. As much as Qui Gon might've agreed that the Jedi were losing focus on the living force, and that the Republic was becoming corrupt, I can't see him willingly joining the darkside and the Sith. He might've been a "Grey Jedi" as in KOTOR.

    However, I think Dooku was just saying that to somewhat provoke Obi Wan, and if he meant it sincerely simply assuming their companionship meant Qui Gon would've followed him out of loyalty.