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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Can you imagine Qui-Gon working with Dooku?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by enigmaticjedi, Apr 8, 2015.

  1. sarlaccsaurs-rex

    sarlaccsaurs-rex Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2007
    If Qui-gon lived, then Dooku would have never joined Sidious. According to the EU his death was the nail in the coffin for Dooku's faith in the jedi. He may have still left the order to become a politician, but he would not have fallen under Sidious's wing.
     
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It should be noted that in the newcanon, Dooku is already arranging Sifo-Dyas's murder during the Valorum administration - before Qui-Gon's death. TCW changing things around a bit.
     
  3. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012
    Hmmm..yeah, because that makes so much sense. Qui-Gon's death was the final straw because...in some way the Jedi were responsible for Qui-Gon's death and...Dooku joins the individual who set his assassin on him, and set up the whole mess that Qui-Gon was having to deal with...and is at the heart of all the corruption that Dooku claimed to be displeased with in the Senate.

    Yes, it all makes sense now....
     
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  4. sarlaccsaurs-rex

    sarlaccsaurs-rex Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2007
    Thank you Iron Lord!

    Jesus dude.... I was referring to the fact that the pain QG death caused Dooku was the reason he gave up all hope.
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil was the source for the original concept:


    The Battle of Naboo had revealed that the Sith were back in the open, and that a Sith Lord was at work somewhere.
    The Sith Lord: the one born with the power needed to take the final step.
    Dooku had given thought to seeking him out, perhaps killing him. But even what little faith he placed in prophesy was enough to raise doubt that the death of a Sith could halt the advance of the dark side.
    Another would come, and another.
    As it happened, there had been no need to hunt for Sidious, for it was Sidious who had approached him. Sidious's boldness surprised him at first, but it hadn't taken long for Dooku to become fascinated by the Sith. Instead of a lightsaber duel to the death, there had been much discussion, and a gradual understanding that their separate visions for how the galaxy might be rescued from depravity.
    But partnership with a Sith didn't make one a Sith.
    As the Jedi arts had to be taught, so, too, did the power of the dark side. And so began his long apprenticeship. The Jedi warned that anger was the quickest path to the dark side, but anger was nothing more than raw emotion. To know the dark side one had to be willing to rise above all morality, to throw love and compassion aside, and to do whatever was necessary to bring about the vision of a world brought under control—even if that meant taking lives.
    Dooku was an eager student, and yet Sidious had continued to hold him at arm's length. Perhaps he had been working with other potential replacements for his earlier apprentice, the savage Darth Maul, who, in fact, had been nothing more than a minion, like Asajj Ventress and General Grievous. Sidious had recognized in Dooku the makings of a true accomplice—an equal from the other camp, already trained in the Jedi arts, a master duelist, a political visionary. But he needed to gauge the depth of Dooku's commitment.
    One of your former confidants at the Jedi Temple has perceived the coming change, Sidious had told him. This one has contacted a group of cloners, regarding the creation of an army for the Republic. The order for the army can stand, for we will be able to make use of that army someday. But Master Sifo-Dyas cannot stand, for the Jedi cannot learn about the army until we are prepared to have them learn of it.
    And so with the murder of Sifo-Dyas, Dooku had embraced the dark side fully, and Sidious had conferred on him the title Darth Tyranus. His final act before leaving the Jedi Order was to erase all mentions of Kamino from the Jedi archives. Then, as Tyranus, he had found Fett on Bogg 4; had instructed the Mandalorian to deliver himself to Kamino; and had arranged for payments to be made to the cloners through circuitous routes ...
    Ten years passed.


    With the later Darth Plagueis novel having Dooku say shortly before TPM, basically "If one more Jedi dies because of the Council's bad choices, I'll leave the Order and never look back".
     
  6. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012


    I know...and I was just pointing out little sense that idea makes. Dooku is grief-stricken at the death ofd his friend Qui-Gon and leaves the Jedi in some sort of disgust at it being the Jedi Council's fault that Qui-Gon had been killed. Then....goes to Sidious..whose apprentice it was killed his good friend Qui-Gon, and learns that this Sidious was behind the whole blockade/inasion mess that the Jedi Council were dealing with....the same Sidious who is behind all the 'depravity' that he detests that he feels is bringing down the moral standing of the Jedi Order ....

    Let's get that into perspective. He blames the Jedi then...upon learning that the Jedi are being undermined, the Republic is being undermined, from within...by this character..who is stirring up all the conflict...and he doesn't, at any point, think....'ahh, I see. So its not that the Republic is inherently corrupt, its not that the Jedi Council are incompetent, its that this (expletive) is playing everybody.' And so, grief stricken as he is at the death of his friend who Sidious killed, disgusted as he is by the depravity at whose heart this Sidious is, he joins him.....??!!
     
  7. sarlaccsaurs-rex

    sarlaccsaurs-rex Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2007
    I was under the impression that he didn't know Sidious was Maul's master.
     
  8. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Besides what Rex said when one is mourning one isn't the most rational so acting like Dooku should be is rather insensitive.
     
  9. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

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    Dec 7, 2014
    But Maul was a Sith Lord, and Sidious was a Sith Lord. If "Only two there are", that would make Sidious, Maul's Master.

    Or his apprentice. ;)
     
  10. TX-20

    TX-20 Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 21, 2013
    I just assumed that based on his talk with Obi-Wan, Dooku wanted out of the Faustian bargain he made with Sidious. But Obi-Wan is all like Siths Gonna Sith so he's not going to help the Count.
     
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  11. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    Given Qui-Gonn's utter inability to respect any kind of authority figure it wouldn't have lasted long whether Dooku was a full blown Sith or merely a disillusioned Jedi. He'd probably be open to listening to Dooku's ideas and ideology but the minute Dooku started talking about grand plans and how they would affect the future of the Galaxy, Gui-Gonn would have been 'Yeah, no, Living Force, bro.' and got out to go live in the moment a bit more, as was his style. He'd have probably ended up something of a wild card in the war, helping out people and planets regardless of whether they were nominally 'Republic' or 'Separatist' and just focussing on the little people not the big picture.
     
  12. Queen Apailana

    Queen Apailana Jedi Master star 1

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    Mar 8, 2015
    I'm with Obi-Wan on this one, Qui-Gon Jinn would never join Dooku.
     
  13. mes520

    mes520 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    If Qui-Gon had lived past TPM, Dooku would probably try to recruit/turn him. Like Obi-Wan in AOTC. Now Qui-Gon was not the average PT Jedi. Probably one of the many reasons why Dooku wanted him and think he might join him, but I don't see him turning to the Dark Side. If anything, Qui-Gon would seek Dooku out and try to convince him to turn away from the Dark Side.
     
  14. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Nope. it doesn't.

    Joining the Sith with the ultimate goal of removing anything and anyone standing in one's way IS - well - not a good action. From that perspective, any ideologue or dictator who removes/wishes to remove any and all opponents is not someone I'd care to make the acquaintance of.

    "Peace" and stability are hardly a good result when large swaths of people are killed or imprisoned or live in fear of "offending the leader."
     
  15. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 18, 2012

    Insensitive? I have lost loved ones (I won't be alone in that), I'm aware that grief has an effect but....if I lost someone I loved, considered one person(or persons) to be responsible for that and then found this other person(s) who actually was...just what sort of level of irrational am I expected to believe in..?!! That I might join and embrace the person(s) who actually was/were responsible for my loss? There is emotionally driven irrationality and then there is this story....they are not the same thing.
     
  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Qui-Gon was a staunch beleiver of the living Force. He would have questioned the motives of the Sith and the war rather than just rushing in and facing the perceived enemy like the Jedi were doing.
     
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  17. Cyreides

    Cyreides Jedi Knight star 2

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    Feb 19, 2014
    I think he could've potentially sided with Dooku, but in a way that would've ended up bringing Dooku closer to the Jedi rather than aligning him with Sidious and the dark side.
     
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  18. SithMaul

    SithMaul Jedi Youngling

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    May 13, 2015
    I can't see jinn joining the sith .
     
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  19. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 8, 2015
    Dooku might have exploited Qi-Qon's trust on him to trick him into becoming a pawn, telling him half-truths about (like telling him that Palpatine was a Sith and asking Qi-Gon to help him to defeat the Supreme Chancellor) but Qi-Gon would never knowingly help the Sith. Eventually he would suspect the truth and would have to be put down.
     
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  20. Ambervikings91

    Ambervikings91 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Dec 1, 2012
    I dont think he would work with dooku, I think dooku was manipulating obi at that point. Dooku was with the sith and qui gon, even though he didn't go along with the council most certainly would have been very against dooku as the events transpired.
     
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  21. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    I can see Dooku genuinely convinced that Qui-Gonn would have worked with him. He knows how stubborn QG could be and his apparent inability to cooperate with the Council for any length of time is well known. Dooku would see this and think 'Yes! This man is clearly ripe for turning, he will join us.' but miss the why - QG's real problem is with authority in general and his adherence to the living force theory. There is a wide difference between 'disagree with the Council' and 'Turning to the Dark Side' - Dooku made that leap, QG wouldn't.
     
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  22. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I can't even imagine Qui-Gon working out with Dooku.

    I cannot imagine those two in the gym together. Dooku would be all like, "do you even lift", and Qui-Gon would be like "I'm just trying to get some cardio in before I meditate, man".

    How did they ever get any training done?
     
  23. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I can just see Qui-Gon trying to show Dooku the benefits of a drawn-out moon salutation and Dooku just getting embarrassed because Qui-Gon's ass is sticking out during downward dog.
     
  24. xezene

    xezene Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 6, 2016
    The Qui-Gon-Dooku thing is interesting, isn't it? Both rogues, both rebels, neither are followers. Sort of ironic that the next in line from that lineage, Obi-Wan, was more or less a by-the-book sort of guy [though little moments of Qui-Gon's training flash through every once in awhile... Obi-Wan knowing Dex, his familiarity with bars... :p]. Followed then by Anakin, perhaps the biggest rule-breaker ever. Anyway, back to the original question...

    I think if Qui-Gon had lived things would have been different -- not just with Anakin but all over the place. Qui-Gon is extremely instrumental to everything. As Lucas once said, "Jar Jar is the key to all this" -- well, Qui-Gon is the key to both Jar Jar & Anakin even being in the series. I know that, as someone else said, in the EU Qui-Gon's death greatly affected Dooku and Dooku left the Jedi not long after. It's not unreasonable to think that Qui-Gon living could have kept Dooku from leaving the Jedi. On top of that, Qui-Gon is more attuned to the Living Force than anyone else around, so it's pretty likely he would have felt something regarding Palpatine. Note that Qui-Gon and Palpatine never once interact in The Phantom Menace; I think that's important. So Qui-Gon living may have undermined evil from both sides -- preventing Dooku's fall, and discovering Palpatine earlier than everyone else. Considering Qui-Gon's own steadfast trust in his own intuitions, combined with his sensitivity to the Force, combined with his attentiveness & intelligence, I highly doubt Palpatine's evil would have escaped Qui-Gon's notice. Would it have escaped the Jedi Council's? Yes, and it did. But Qui-Gon's? I doubt it.

    Also, Dooku wanted to reform the Jedi and left when he saw that this wasn't going to happen. I imagine he lost a great potential ally in that cause when Qui-Gon died, because Qui-Gon was also a highly respected rogue. It's possible that through the combined efforts of Qui-Gon and Dooku, along with the rest of the Lost Twenty, perhaps things could have been reformed. This would have maybe even prevented the total collapse of the Jedi and fall of the Republic, who knows?

    Overall I think Qui-Gon would have been open to working with Dooku as a fellow Jedi. As rogue as he may be though, I don't think Qui-Gon would have been so keen to work with a follower of the Sith like Dooku. But since Dooku going dark likely resulted in part from Qui-Gon's death, it's no guarantee Qui-Gon would have ever had to work with a fully dark Dooku. And I can see Qui-Gon working with shades of grey. So, in answer to the question, yes but under conditions.
    Man, you just increased my appreciation of Qui-Gon with your post. :) I think it's true, Qui-Gon might have done little things to help out where he could wherever help was needed. Such an underrated character.
     
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  25. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    http://theforce.net/jedicouncil/interview/henrygilroyanddavefiloni.asp

    In Dark Disciple it offers a little window in Dooku's turn, he says he out grew the Jedi, no longer recognized good and evil there was only power(the line and scene seemed inspired or taken from the first Harry Potter movie/book when Voldemort/Professor Quirrel attempts to seduce boy Potter to join him) and he was seeking greater power, and he seems to have resented his true pedigree being held from him and being taken away from his family and wealth. Once he learned about his past very late in life which seems to explain his late conversion to the Sith. So seems his family had something to do with his eventual fall, and the whole Jedi taking kids when their young away from their families(which was a problem Anakin and Vos had).


    According to Dave Filoni, Sidious was already quasi breaking the rule of two, or Sidious had his own assassin(Dooku acting as Ventress would under him) as he claimed both Dooku and Maul were Sidious's padawans(one was the Sith Lord and the other the corrupt Jedi), then he refers to Dooku "operatively working somewhat knowingly for Sidious under corruption while Maul was the Sith Apprentice" during the events of the TPM. So it looks like Dooku was an early version of Anakin (and even an early version of an Imperial Inquisitor as some were fallen Jedi who would swear loyalty to the Sith)- whom Palpatine directly focused on to corrupt and manipulate but all the Jedi were corrupted and manipulated by Palpatine due to the Sith Shrine and him being Supreme Chancellor.




    Its clearly stated though that Maul was meant to be front and center in the whole Clone Wars /galactic conflict thing caused by Darth Sidious. Maul apparently only meets Dooku for the first time in SOD:

     
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