Canadian Theological Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Canada General' started by Ian_Ball, Nov 17, 2001.

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  1. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    It doesn't...I was just stating my nationality in response to E_Grayshadow's comment on pushy Americans...my nationality doesn't really play a part in my theological beliefs...
  2. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    Well, this thread might be interesting.

    I assume we should post our beliefs before debating?

    I believe in evolution, but I believe a higher being probably created the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen that I evolved from. I do not believe Christ was connected to God in any way. I think he was either crazy, or a demagogue.

    What religion would that make me?
  3. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Hmm...I have no idea what religion that would make you! :D

    As far as my beliefs go, I am a strong Christian. I am a senior at Bethany Bible College in Sussex, New Brunswick, and am training to be a teacher, and minoring in youth ministry.

    I believe Jesus is the sinless Son of God, that He died for the sins of the world, was raised on the third day, and sits by the Father in heaven.

    I know there have been a lot of injustices done in the world by the hands of Christians, and for that I am truly sorry. As such, there are also a lot of hypocrites in the Christian faith. I try to live my life the best that I can through the strength that God gives me.

    All I can do is present what I believe, feel, and experience, and tell someone else. From there, it's their decision. I try not to be the stereotypical shove it down someone's throat until they choke kind of person. I feel that that kind of evangelism is wrong, and does nothing but drive people further away.

    Umm...that's all I can think of right now! I guess more will come to mind as the post continue! :] look forward to talkin with ya!
  4. E_Greyshadow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 2
    Sorry if I came off sounding like an ass, Sar-Tamber-lac. I've just had some bad experiences with Americans in the past. Nothing personal.
  5. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I'm sure that, living in Canada, he hears that stuff all the time. I wouldn't worry about it. Americans don't seem to mind the world's anti-American bias too much. They're used to it.

    Anyway, back to religion. Am I the only non-Christian here?
  6. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    It's no problem, Greyshadow...I can understand where you would have that assumption...It's a pretty popular one, unfortunately...there are some Americans like that, and they give the rest of us a bad name...just like there are some Christians who give the rest of us bad names...guess I'm gettin it double-time, huh? :D
  7. E_Greyshadow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 2
    Nope - you're not the only non-Christian here. If you've read my post (somewhere in the back-logs of this thread), you'll find I'm pretty open to whatever. I don't really think any one religion has hit it on the head yet, so I'm keeping my options open. ;)
  8. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    What are you hopin to have "hit on the head", Greyshadow? :)
  9. E_Greyshadow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 2
    I just don't believe that mortal humans, with our limited minds, could possibly understand whatever "supreme being" (whatever your name for it) it is, or what it's motives are.
  10. the_alpha_male Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2002
    Hmmmm........ I believe Izard stated that the bible is the word of god, not man's and that jesus rose from the dead. Well, how do you know this? Were u there? I can't believe all the simple minded people in this world that believe in fairy tales and myth. In a few thousand years, maybe Star Wars will gather a religous following. Let's face it, all religions were invented by man, christianity included. People needed religion to give meaning to the world. As far as prophecy is concerned, the bible states the obvious. For instance, Nostadamus predicts a war occurring between Germany and France. Well guess what - the writing was on the wall. Those two nations were on the brink for centuries and it wasn't totally unforseen. The bible makes similiar predictions, usually vaugue as to the time period, but not unforseen. Apparently, the Old Testament believes that rape is an act that is ok under some conditions (Numbers 31:1-35):

    "They warred against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and slew every male . . . And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones . . . Then they brought the captives and the booty and the spoil to Moses [3 to 4 day march] . . . And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? . . . now kill every male among the little ones [children], and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves . . . Now the booty remaining of the spoil that the men of war took was . . . thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him."

    (Deuteronomy 21:10-14):
    "When you go forth to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hands, and you take them captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you have desire for her and would take her for yourself as wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and pare her nails. And she shall put off her captive's garb, and shall remain in your house and bewail her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her, and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. Then, if you have no delight in her, you shall let her go where she will."

    Sounds like a very primitive religion to me.
  11. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    alpha_male: looks like you've been doing some reading! it makes me happy to see someone who will actually go to the Scriptures and check it out, and not take anyone else's word for it. During Paul's visit to the churches in Berea in the book of Acts, he commended the Bereans for doing that very thing, as I commend you!

    There is no way (that I know of) that one can tangibly prove the bodily resurrection of Christ that is recorded in Scriptures. That is why the Christian beliefs are based upon faith, believin in that which we cannot see. However, there is no way to disprove it, either. Many, many people have tried, and all have failed. Most of those people, in fact, turned to Christ after their search, because they found it to be true after all. One of these is a man named Josh McDowell. Awesome speaker and author. If you're really interested in this subject, he has a book called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict". It goes through and answers many of the guffs people have about the Christian doctrine.

    There are many different theories abounding today denying a physical and miraculous resurrection of Christ. Anything from the Roman government or disciples stole it, to the disciples and women just went to the wrong tomb, to Christ never actually dying, just fainting on the cross, and others. However, if you look at them logically, none make sense. If the Roman government stole the body, then why didn't they just show it when all the hype about the resurrection started, instead of lettin it continue to grow? And how would the disciples get by trained Roman guards, men who lived their job, and died by it, in some cases, to steal the body? As for the women, they followed Joseph when he buried the body, so you would think they would know where the tomb was. When looked at in light of theology and Scripture, the arguments against just don't hold water. And what about the disciples themselves? How do you explain the change in their lives? They went from men who spent all their time with Jesus, and ran like chickens when Jesus was arrested, to all but one bein martyred for their belief in a risen Christ (the disciple John died a natural death after his exile to Patmos for his belief in Christ. It was there that he saw the vision that is now known as the book of Revelation). Peter himself, who denied Christ three times, was cruxified upside down, more painful than anything. It would take something pretty drastic, a miracle, if you will, for such a life change as what the disciples showed.

    I hope I didn't get on anyone's goat. Just presenting some food for thought, and to see what y'all were thinking. :D
  12. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    I can`t believe one of my threads is still going..one point to throw in here....

    alpha_male: looks like you've been doing some reading! it makes me happy to see someone who will actually go to the Scriptures and check it out, and not take anyone else's word for it. During Paul's visit to the churches in Berea in the book of Acts, he commended the Bereans for doing that very thing, as I commend you!

    If you are reading scriptures, you are taking someone`s word for it...unless you are reeaaalllllyyyyyyy old.
  13. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    LOL...hmmm, interestin point, Ian....but, being a Christian, I believe that the Bible is, even though written by the hands of men, God-inspired and Holy Spirit lead...

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be equipped for every good work.

    I believe in this whole-heartedly...so one may say that I'm takin someone else's word for it, or that I'm takin God's word for it...And I think I'm takin God's word for it... :)
  14. E_Greyshadow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 2
    Even if this is true, Man (used in the nebulous sence, what the "PC" would call 'Personkind') is inherantly flawed. I challenge you, good sir, to take a bible from about 50 or 60 years ago and compare the text to what it is today. There are changes, quite a few of them. And that's in a 50 year span. Think of the amount of changes that have been going on for the past millenia, not to mention possible errors in translation.
  15. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    Greyshadow: how about "good ma'am" instead of "good sir" ;)

    A lot of what you're thinkin is dependent upon what translation you are using. Certain ones go back to further ancient manuscripts than others...for example, I would prefer to use the New Internation Version over the King James Version, not only because it's easier to understand, but the biblical scholars who wrote it (and there are many, from many different denominations and scholarly backgrounds...just look in the preface of one!), went back and researched much older manuscripts than those of the King James version...therefore, their interpretation would be much more accurate than the KJV, because they were using much older manuscripts, that would place them closer to the origianl autographs...others, such as The Message and (to some) the New Living Translation, are paraphrases of other versions, and are not to be used as the NIV or others are...and it is true that things may have changed over time, and that words or spelling mistakes may have been made, but the foundation and basic message is still there and clear through all the manuscripts...and after 2000 years of consistency, I can't argue with it...with all the manuscripts written, nothing in them has changed as far as a message or belief goes...only the denominational interpretations have...
  16. Primrodo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    Nifty Thread,

    I'd like to add to teh above that teh KJV versions tended to change words, like from love to compassion.

    When its particular translation was translated...er ok...it was in a victorian era and certain phrases and words weren't "good" for the readers.

    I prefer the NIV as well. I read some next to the original greek (New Testament stuff) And it is pretty well dead on.

    Neat thread :)
  17. Primrodo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
  18. Primrodo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
  19. Lady_Lucas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 4
    All I have to say is I read through this long thread and IZIRD...you ROCK! :)
    I couldn't have said those things better myself!

    So what about the moon guys? Do you believe we really landed or was it all just a government scheme?
  20. Izird Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    I'm sorry to say, but at this time I don't have the time to spend in this thread. If you want to know my position, it hasn't changed since my posts many moons ago yet only a few pages back.

    There are a few strong Christians here now who know the Bible as well as I do. I'll check back soon enough to see how it's going. Other than that, have fun, and remember that we only debate to enrich each other's knowledge, not to rip each other to shreds. ;)
  21. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    remember that we only debate to enrich each other's knowledge, not to rip each other to shreds.

    Good statement, Ryan...I like that very much!!

    As with Ryan, my views haven't changed from my original posts, either...just so we're all on the same page here...literally and figuretively... ;)
  22. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Well, I`m back after a long hiatus w/o the net, so perhaps we can fire this thread up again.

    Q - Do you think the current situation in the world (terrorists/wars etc) really have anything to do with religion anymore? Or is it just a faded concept of religion passed down like a 2000 year old game of "telephone"?
  23. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I believe that religion played a role in the attacks on 9/11, but I don't believe America's response to those attacks have anything to do with religion. On 9/11, it was about religion. Now it's about oil, Bush family pride, and the economy.

    Welcome back, man. Are you a Sig Op yet?
  24. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    A Sig Op? I guess not, since I have no idea what that is lol...(feels stupid)

    Looking at Canada in comparison to America (no bashing please ppl) we seem to be a lot less "paraonid" of a nation in some respects...To say that this mess is over oil is true, but also lacking a few points...

    1)War on terrorisim = why is this taking place now and not 50 years ago?

    2)Iraq = why did Bush sr. leave Hussein in office if he is so evil?

    3)N.Korea = paranoid reaction on a mass level (imo)

    What does this have to do with religion? everything. on a whole our governments and laws are based off religion...is this really such a good thing, seeing how the world is in hot water at the moment?
  25. Primrodo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    What does that have to do with religion...nothing.

    Yes it was the basis of the Christian faith and structure that England, then Canada and the United States government systems were based on, and thats great and all.

    See if anything, Kings whosit, made a great desicion when he became Christian and formed the laws to what God wanted us to follow. Someone once said to me that Christianity is full of morals, none of them bad. No killing, no lying, listen to Mom and Dad, etc.

    But the United States in 1942 (I think) declared that there was no such thing as God and halted prayer in schools and tried best to take religion abd faith out of the school system.

    Funny thing look at the stats, Crime went up, and more went on.

    So in an America that has stated that God doesn't exist (with the 10 commandments on thier wall and that famous line on their dollared bills) Religion plays no part in its political and national stand. Sure certain faiths approve of Bushs actions, we all grieved on 9/11, but without religion, how does teh war make religion have to do anything to it.

    Yes the terrorists said they were following what their god said, but didn't hitler?

    Why has this been blown up so much...cause it has happend to the US. The'r have been worse senerios, more deaths, and an allaround worse time that 9/11, but because its happend to The US of A suddenly its a declaration of war.

    Now that has no grounds in religion...its pride, on both sides. It doesn't take much faith to follow a mad man.

    :)
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