Canada Canadian Theological Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Canada Discussion Boards' started by Ian_Ball, Nov 17, 2001.

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  1. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Well...anyways...I`m not getting into this...THEOLOGICAL debate...lol
  2. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    LOL...point taken, Ian. ;)

    Soo...what's next on the agenda?
  3. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Creation vs. Evolution...or both?

    BOTH???=if god created man in his image, and we have evolved from apes, is god an ape? (joking)
  4. Primrodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    Hey I actually did an intense study on this...and even took a step back to look into both with an open mind...interesting subject.
  5. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    I will right now state that my belief is creation...I can't get into why right yet, because I'm preparing to leave for the weekend. When I get back Monday I'll type more. Yarmouth, Nova Scotia here I come!
  6. im_posessed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2002
    star 3
    I am a creationist, but don't nesicarilly take the 7 days of creation literally...
    My basis for believing in creation, besides believing in God with the ability to create, is that our basic structure (DNA) is human DNA, and such is the same for any specis. Yes, there is micro-evolution (adaptation) but the specis has not changed. For example, of all the different types of dogs after adaptation over hundreads of years, their DNA is still that of a dog, and not of any other species.
    More to come as other ideas flow...


  7. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    *Enjoy your trip Sar-Tamber-Lac*

    My stance on this issue is evolution...of sorts.

    These are all still not proven theroies<sp>. Wether or not there ever will be an absolute solution to this I don`t know, but here are my 2 cents.

    1) There is too much scientific evidence to back up evolution.
    2) There had to be something that created the micro-organisim that spawned the human race.
    3) That may be "god" or it could have been a space giraffe...I don`t know.
    4) Creationisim produces a problem with me...Who created god?...and why aren`t we worshiping him?


  8. Primrodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4

    1) There is too much scientific evidence to back up evolution.
    2) There had to be something that created the micro-organisim that spawned the human race.
    3) That may be "god" or it could have been a space giraffe...I don`t know.
    4) Creationisim produces a problem with me...Who created god?...and why aren`t we worshiping him?


    1) There is too much scientific proof going AGAINST evolution. Things like extrapolation, moon dust, stable C-14, 2nd law of thermodynamics, probobility...the list goes on.

    2) Sure

    3) Only a "creator" could shape and design something as close to as comples as human beings...but then to individually design every organism on the planet to be unique and perfect in its way.

    4) Well see God always was, no one created Him. Its a hard concept to grasp, but God has never been very relible to human understanding. This is teh creator who created physics, chemistry, and biology. God always was.

    Often when the arguments for evolution or for creatonism come up, those that believe in evolution tend to lean over and say science says this, science says that. Its amusing to see how many regard evolution as a fact, when in its entirety is still a theory. It has many holes, many contradictions and goes too much against nature and the way of things. Evolution is very much a thing you must or have a leap of faith to believe.

    There was a stat out a bit back that said 85% of the worlds scientists actually believe that the world was crafted by a supreme being, be it God or otherwise. They said the Earth and its inhabitants, even the spacial requirements are too perfect for chance.

    Interesting stuff.

    A Christian artist sang this in a song of his:

    Ninety-three million miles from the blistering surface of the sun hangs planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. An unbelievable complex design.

    The size, position and angle of the earth are a scientific wonder. A few degrees closer to the sun we would disintegrate, a few degrees? further we would freeze.

    The axis of the earth is tilted at a precise 23 degree. This allows equal global distribution to the raise of the sun, making it possible for the food chain to exist.

    Take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere in which we breath every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to thrive. It doesn?t happen on any other planet that way.

    The moon controls the tides and it?s the maid that cleans the ocean. The waves don?t crash the shores in vain. The tides drag impurities into the depths of the sea. It?s mother natures recycling bin for the ocean.

    It simply boggles the mind to think that the stars will rotate with such exact precision that it?s true that the atomic clock, with an error factor of less than three seconds per millennium, is set by the way they move."

    Strong words...scientifically accurate...and just amazed me the first tiem i heard them put together in this song.
  9. Mahms_katarn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2002
    star 4
    But you know, in the moon's Jupiter, Europa, some scientific think that there are conditions for the live still exist. And we're not sure that live exists only in the eart, but we think that had existes in Mars.
  10. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I'm a devout evolutionist. I cannot ignore the strong scientific facts surrounding evolution. Religion is merely a way for people to make sense of what science has yet to prove. Many years ago, people thought that when volcanos erupt, it meant the Gods were angry. Now we know what causes it. I believe that one day, we will understand how life was created, and then, religion as we know it will cease to exist.
  11. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Religion ceasing to exisit may be a good thing, look at the way people follow it. Look at the footage of 9/11 if you disagree.

    Also, I may be free to go see a Marilyn Manson concert without a mob of people yelling insults about people they know nothing about who listen to music they know nothing about.

    Homosexuals could also live without fear of being killed to the applause of Pat Robertson.

    Religion is meant to teach love and understanding, or so we`re told...why is it that the only thing we ever hear of it is absolutely disgusting?
  12. Primrodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    I'm a devout evolutionist. I cannot ignore the strong scientific facts surrounding evolution. Religion is merely a way for people to make sense of what science has yet to prove. Many years ago, people thought that when volcanos erupt, it meant the Gods were angry. Now we know what causes it. I believe that one day, we will understand how life was created, and then, religion as we know it will cease to exist

    I cannot ignore the scientific evidence that disprooves evolution. For instance moondust...for the amount of years needed to have evolution would amount to many kilometeres high.

    According the the evolution therory the rings around Saturn would be stable...though they are not.

    Or how about even the mere chance of life to start in teh way evolution creates...10 to the power of 25 billion or something like that.

    The 2nd sceintific rule of therdynamics stats that all things go from order to chaos. From perfect to bad. Like an apple when it sits out, or the world...NOTHING disobeys this natural law...excepot for the theory of evolution.

    Religion ceasing to exisit may be a good thing, look at the way people follow it. Look at the footage of 9/11 if you disagree.

    How can you group all religion or faith into one group? Each has its own values, roles and beliefs. Christianity also cannot be collectivly grouped on one person or even linked to any other faith.

    Also, I may be free to go see a Marilyn Manson concert without a mob of people yelling insults about people they know nothing about who listen to music they know nothing about.

    This is generalizing. I myself know of a pastor who took a day to listen to Manson. He read up on him. Not to say more things about him...but to learn and know about him. What he said wa sthat it took him awhile to clean out his mind...he started thinking things and ways he thought were bad.

    Homosexuals could also live without fear of being killed to the applause of Pat Robertson.

    I've never ever thought that homosexuals were endangered of being killed. I don't know why you'd think that strongly about that. As a Christian I disagree with teh acts and the sin of homosexuality. However I do not condemn them, I do not judge them. I am not God. "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" is the common quote. But fear of death?

    Religion is meant to teach love and understanding, or so we`re told...why is it that the only thing we ever hear of it is absolutely disgusting?

    Because thats all that is ever brought to light. So many good things happen through the name of God than you know, or I could possibly ever know. I've seen more good than bad ever come come from the Love of Christ.
  13. Stina-Cri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Ok from the christian view...I went to catholic school... the book of genisis in the bible is like grre mythology. it was a way to explain to the people then why things are...but only its monotheism rather than polytheism. basically this nun (who now lives in rome and is involved daily in a council with the pope) said genesis was a way to explain life without science...evolution exists but god started it and basically helped it along...she said to god 7 days may have been several billion years....god has eternity...remember...i however am no longer christian. I believe there is a higher power like an energy that cause us to exist (like big bang theory) so i guess evolutionist but not really...
  14. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    "This is generalizing. I myself know of a pastor who took a day to listen to Manson. He read up on him. Not to say more things about him...but to learn and know about him. What he said wa sthat it took him awhile to clean out his mind...he started thinking things and ways he thought were bad."

    Then he didn`t really listen to anything...it`s too bad there is no passage in the gospels that are in praise of intelligence, if there was art may have had a fighting chance in this world.

    "I've never ever thought that homosexuals were endangered of being killed. I don't know why you'd think that strongly about that. As a Christian I disagree with teh acts and the sin of homosexuality. However I do not condemn them, I do not judge them. I am not God. "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" is the common quote. But fear of death??

    Watch the 700 club...Turn the news on someday, it`s happening everywhere in the southern U.S....THE BIBLE BELT.

    "Because thats all that is ever brought to light. So many good things happen through the name of God than you know, or I could possibly ever know. I've seen more good than bad ever come come from the Love of Christ."

    Like the crusades? Like abortion doctor assasinations? Like priests taking advantage of children?

    I have many Christian friends, all of whom I love and respect for their choices. Primrodo, I would hope you could be one...remember this is a debate thread...don`t get emotional please, it`s just my point of view.....and I`m glad to have such a good conversationalist on "board"



  15. im_posessed Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2002
    star 3
    There is a big difference between someone saying they hold to a certain faith doing something crazy and a religion teaching people to hate and kill.

    as for evolution, it is only a THEORY, an idea, a possibility, and yet is treated as actual fact. And if it did occur, why is it not continuing? There have been no changes in the human specis since we took on this form (according to evolution) yes, there have been adaptation (for climate etc.) and advances in technology, but according to the evolution theory, shouldn't there be a supirior race of humans walking around?

  16. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    There is a big difference between someone saying they hold to a certain faith doing something crazy and a religion teaching people to hate and kill.

    exactly my problem with religion...not the religion itself, just the way most choose to follow it.
  17. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    I cannot ignore the scientific evidence that disprooves evolution. For instance moondust...for the amount of years needed to have evolution would amount to many kilometeres high.

    What about fossils? Dinosaur bones? Cavemen skulls and other bones found?

    We know much more about our own planet than we do the moon, so I`m going to take evidence from Earth before I take evidence from the moon. Where do dinosaurs fit into your 7 day theory?

    There have been no changes in the human specis since we took on this form

    Actually, we are still evolving. Evolution is a very slow process, but it is happening. People are getting taller, for example.
  18. Sar-Tamber-lac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 5
    *Enjoy your trip Sar-Tamber-Lac*

    Thank you. I had a great time! :)


    Well, I posted where I stand...I do believe in a creation by God, as recorded in the Bible. However, Ryan (Izird) and I were talkin about this subject this weekend, and I will state the same thing I told him. I believe in creation, but there is so much more to it than a simple black and white answer. Personally, I don't have the time or energy this subject deserves to devote myself to studyin it to form what would be considered an intelligent answer. As far as I'm concerned, what one believes about creation (within reason) isn't something my faith and salvation hinge on, so I would prefer to devote my time to things that do. It's the same as Pretrib vs. Posttrib. I do look forward to reading the discussions and opinions of others, though. Although I would like to place here something Ryan said in an earlier post that we all need to keep in mind:

    have fun, and remember that we only debate to enrich each other's knowledge, not to rip each other to shreds.



  19. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    have fun, and remember that we only debate to enrich each other's knowledge, not to rip each other to shreds.

    indeed.


  20. Daughter_of_Yubyub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2002
    star 6
    The way I see it, there's absolutely nothing to stop God from doing a big bang if he felt like it.
  21. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah I agree...I`m sure god is pretty smooth with the ladies.

    :D
  22. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    I had a fantastic conversation with a Christian missionary today at work...what a gentleman, although we had many diffrences in opinion.

    A few more questions to liven things up.

    1) Is man just another animal?
    2) What does god have to do with money (donations)?
    3) Do good people who don't believe in god still go to hell?
  23. Primrodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2002
    star 4
    Hey Ian,

    I hope it didn't seem like I was getting emotional. I enjoy debating :)

    Firstly AT_60...fossilation and etc is rated buy dating the rock, in which in return the rock dates the fossil. Its all circle reasoning. Aside from C-14 being unstable.

    As for Dinosaurs...read Job ;)

    To answer Ian's questions

    1) No. Man is seperate from that. All scientific explanations aside...even theological. There is mor eto the human mind and body than any beast. Most significantly is the mind, how we think etc.

    2) I think you are talking about tithing. That is the one thing most people don't understand right off..I know I didn't. One thing you have to remember a church is a building with expenses, like water, heat, electricity, telephone etc. The money doesn't come from thin air :)

    3) I don't know...I cannot judge that, for its God who is the final judge. All we have on that is what Christ said in John. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes in Him, will not perish, but have eternal life."
    The only thing ever said is that only through believeing that Christ was God's son and that he paid for all of sin on the cross that its the way to heaven.

    God is something no man could ever understand or fathom, so to assuredly say yes or no would be silly. It was brought up about the 7 days..and what are 7 days to God? Maybe they were 24 hour days...God is God.

    Oh just to lastly comment:

    Actually, we are still evolving. Evolution is a very slow process, but it is happening. People are getting taller, for example.

    This is still adaptation. We're changing to fit our enviroment, not evolving. We don't need the extra muscle, so we are slimer and in turn growing taller.

    Evolution is one of those things which was brought up, and I totally admire Darwin.

    See there are two types of people, one type follow whats said blindly, the other type base what they believe and what they've seen or studied, they are leaders. Darwin was a leader, very coragious, gave Religion something to compare. He was wrong, but was very smart.

    I liked the end of the novel "The Lost World" by Michael Crichton. The one character told the kids tat one day, in a few hundred years science will change yet again. We first believed an atom was a solid ball, but now have neutrons. One day people will look back and say, "Monkeys?! HAHA they believed we came from monkeys?!"
  24. Ian_Ball Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, Ian Malclom had a good point there...lol
  25. Wonk_Ay Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 1
    the thing with most of religion is that you can only believe but never really know.
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