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Capitalism and the American dream (was: Anti-Americanism?)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon, Mar 16, 2006.

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  1. T-65XJ

    T-65XJ Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2002
    FID

    What crazy logic is this? You just admited you have the means, ability and opportunity to make a 6 figure income and you turn your back on it because of your own lifestyle preferences.

    So clearly, that proves the point J-Rod and I are trying to make. Almost everyone in a first world country has the chance to make it if they apply themselves.

    But if you're going to insist on doing something that allows you to have leisure time and is of interest to you, then that's your problem.

    You think I enjoy working long hours, straining my back then sit around through long planning and strategy sessions after work with my partners? Or that I liked studying my butt off? No. I made a choice. I want a Ferrari, I want a multi-million dollar mansion. I want a private jet someday. And I'm sacrificing my currenct lifestyle options to get it.

    If you're not willing to do that, then I deserve those things and you don't. And there's certainly no need to compensate so that lazy idiots with no work ethic can have a comfortable life. I don't care if they can't pay their electricity. It's not my problem.
     
  2. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    You obviously don't think like an American. As much as it dismays me to say this, I still do think like one. I just don't have this self-aggrandising view of American culture.


    BTW, if I worked as a video game designer I'd make more than 98,000/year. Much more, the problem is that the road to that isn't always an easy one.


    If you're not willing to do that, then I deserve those things and you don't. And there's certainly no need to compensate so that lazy idiots with no work ethic can have a comfortable life. I don't care if they can't pay their electricity. It's not my problem.

    Such a caring attitude. No wonder we're swamped with all of this peace.
     
  3. T-65XJ

    T-65XJ Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2002
    You forgot to add the most important part. IF you succeed in becoming a video game designer.

    It's not a sure thing and not everyone makes it. That's like an out of work wannabe actor or painter saying a we can make much more than a lawyer or doctor. It's just the road is not easy.

    It's true. I'm sure Piccaso and George Clooney are or were richer than I am. And if you want to try it, good luck. Just don't expect your way paid until you make it or if you don't make it.

    I like my feet on the ground with solid goals and a clear way of achieving them. I know a very smart guy who could easily make a lot of money if he wanted. Instead, he wants to be the next Jeoffrey Rush and wastes all his time stage acting for little or no pay. But he says it's what he wants to do. He's electricity has been cut off quite a few times. Do you think I'm going to give him a cent or lose a night's sleep over it?

    Why does he deserve my help when he's obviously not helping himself and being a drain on society's resources instead of contributing? Which he's quite capable of.

    Such people do not deserve my sympathy or care. In fact he doesn't deserve the wellfare payments he receives.
     
  4. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    If you like you're feet on solid ground and knowing where you're going, that's fine. I consider such an act cowardly, but to each their own. Though, I do have to wonder about attitudes like yours, whether the fear of the unknown is inherent in the person or if it's a cultural aspect. Hmm...any way, your acting friend sounds like a true bum, but if that's his aspiration in life he can have it. I have no intention of being poor, but I also know that realistically the odds of being super-rich are tipped in the other guy's favor. You know, the schmoe that inherits money.
     
  5. T-65XJ

    T-65XJ Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 27, 2002
    I can't argue with that. If you inherit money, you'd hope the parent's who made it will instill enough sense to at least keep it if not grow it. But how do think the first generation rich people made it? Through hard work and being smart with their money.

    I certainly hope that's the situation my kids will find themselves in. And do you think I'm going to donate my money to charity or allow estate tax to take a chunk when I die? **** NO. I'll have most of the assets transfered tax free to my kids' names long before I die. And there's a million ways to do that legally.

    I don't see anything morally wrong with that. I busted my butt to make that money. Why shouldn't the people I love benefit as much as possible?

    As for cowardly. You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree. I call it smart and responsible. As my family will eat and eat well. I'm enjoying creature comforts most people can only dream about. If that's cowardly, sign me up for Coward 101.
     
  6. saber_death

    saber_death Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2005
    as for the middle class dieing... that's not true.

    the PERCENTAGE of people who are poor (poverty line and lower) has fallen, as has the near-poor (125% of poverty line)... now of course we do have more total poor people, but then we have more people, so that's kinda inevitable, especially since the poverty line rises with inflation. but we also have more million/billionares than ever before, more housing ownership, more car ownership, more "gadget" ownership, and so on...

    if we have less poor people, and more rich people... then at worst the middle class is dieing in the right way, in that we're all moving up.


    as for that link, as many have said there's variety of reasons, many of which have already been said, why a 40 year old male's income hasn't rise much (inflation adjusted) in 40 years:

    women taking more jobs and more high-paying jobs than they used to... almost every major at my college (except most engineering fields and some sciences) has more girls than guys... 50 years ago my school only had guys.

    more job/career changes over a lifetime... used to be people would work from their 20's till their 60's at 1 or 2 main jobs... now it's something like 6 on average IIRC.

    more dual-income familes, men don't NEED to make much more if the wife is making money too, so they don't try to (either asking for raises and/or working hard enough to get them).

    younger people making more money than older people. with the tech boom, us Gen-Y kids who were raised on computers can make far more money than our dads do in their jobs, and as companies get fancier equipment they have higher younger workers who can use it and pay them better since they're in demand. i'd say many of the new millionares over the past 5-10 years have been rather younger internet entrepenaurs, not older "real world" ones.

    outsourcing has shifted where the jobs are needed (not total number of jobs though as seen by overall employment numbers) so our parents who were in manufacturing as well as some office workers aren't needed as much/at all and have to work for lower incomes to keep any job at all.

    a shift from cash income to benefits (not sure how that study/chart measured income, didn't seem to mention benefits much at all IIRC). stocks, 401k, health insurance, and so on are as much a part of income nowadays as take-home pay. if those aren't considered then of course income has stayed flat or fallen for 40 year olds (who care about all these things the most since they're nearing retirement and have families to look after) lately.
     
  7. lorn_zahl

    lorn_zahl Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I'm not privy to the current discussion though I will say this.

    Ward Churchill, the professor from Colorado who called victims of 9/11 "Little Eichmanns" is anti-American. (oh and his academic career is over thanks to his plagarizing.)

    Howard Dean, though I think he's an idiot and disagree with every point he makes, is not an anti-American.

    I don't even think Hugo Chavez is an anti-American per se, the guy seems to like America in general just not the administration currently in power (for obvious reasons).

    I think anti-Americanism is something more broad, more deep rooted than some espouse it to be. It's an innate hatred for everything that is and was America. Jealousy and contempt come to mind.... as well as simple ideological differences or founded reasons based on percieved wan ton American aggression.

    It's also facinating that the one country in the world that has every right to hate us (Vietnam), is very pro-American... go there and you will be well recieved, better than France any way...

    Does that help?
     
  8. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
  9. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    There is also plenty more evidence than the link that E_S posted. I think saber_death is confused on is that just because the poor are getting better off doesn't mean wealth is getting ever-more divided.
     
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