Amph "On your left." - Captain America (Brave New World)

I hear she's playing Kate Beckinsale in this.

 

Poor Bea Arthur.

makes about as much sense as "poor Jennifer Connelly"

 

This whole passage seems mildly absurd. First off, there are only crimes where the death penalty is an option, not mandatory. Most of all, though, the Judicial Branch is completely independent of the other two branches of government. They do things that the Executive Branch "doesn't want" all the time--even for highly controversial terrorism cases. Witness, for instance, Bush v Hamdan. You're arguing that even though there have been confirmed, universally acknowledged instances of mind-control within these films, no lawyer would be able or willing to make an argument for mind control as an exculpatory factor? Let alone the multiple lesser elements that are routinely used to argue against guilt or for more lenient sentencing? This whole plot line is built on a fundamental misapprehension of how the justice system works. Why are things so terrible that Captain America can't even let his friend go to court, and then break him out if/when things are demonstrably unfair? What sort of message is it that he shouldn't he have to be subject to legal scrutiny of any sort? Did anyone think this out at all?

This isn't really how patents work. The government designed the wings, and Stark rebuilt them based on that design. It was never legally his to be able to do so, anymore than I can make slight modifications to the iPhone, resell it to the public as the J-wPhone. Nor even if it were legal, would that erase the fact that all his training with the suit came from the government.

Yes, I understand that. But why is it so terrible? Where are you people getting this fundamental right to be a superhero from? There isn't one. They're people who try to help. If allowed to do so, great. If not, or if forced to do so under conditions they disagree with, they will resign. That's the same choice every one of us make about our jobs on a daily basis. Is that tyrannical? Some fundamental miscarriage of justice? A tragedy worth engaging in literal combat over? Because I sort of think that's just what it means to be employed.

This is not a particularly profound dilemma. Every day, there are criminals that get away because of the protections we have in place. That's the price of having a system of laws, instead of all out chaos. The same thing is already true for superheroes. There are plenty of crimes in Gotham that never might have occurred if Batman had simply murdered someone. Why give up men like Luthor or Kingpin to the criminal justice system at all, when they only play it to their own advantage and end up back on the streets? Why is it okay for heroes to set up their own rules, but the moment anyone else tries to suggest some its unbearable fascism? How come we can't admit that maybe these people aren't perfect, and that there is nothing inherently evil about designing a layer of protections and accountability to make sure they don't go too far?

As designed, this isn't really a debate. It's a bunch of libertarian clap-trap that even Ayn Rand would call extreme. You guys keep talking about how stories have evolved to account for corrupt officials. But what about how they've evolved to account for the failings in superheroes? We aren't talking about Golden age figures with flawless personal backgrounds anymore. We've seen heroes that were bigoted, drug-addicts, alcoholics, and mentally ill. These things even appear in the films! Is it seriously your argument that no one should even have the ability to even question someone's use of power when they are dealing with such struggles? What are you saying, really?

 

Has anyone else noticed how conspicuously absent Nick Fury is in the trailer?

 

It ate him. A mutha******* skrull ate him.

 

I haven't watch AOS beyond season 1 yet, but he was forced to go to ground as a result of the events of TWS, so maybe he's still keeping a low profile.

 

I have this vision of both sides in their civil war beating the crap out of each other, then right at the climax, Fury shows up out of nowhere, tells Cap and Tony to quit it, put their arms around each other, and say three nice things about the other.

"I will turn this helicarrier around if you two don't shut up!"

 

Now I have a very strange image of Fury spanking Cap. Thanks for that,

 

SLJ said in a couple of interviews and he said outright he wasn't asked to be in Civil War, so Fury could very well be elsewhere trying to take out HYDRA during the events of Civil War.

 

Neither Fury or Hill are in Civil War. Hills's absence is a bit odd given she had a prominent role in the comic version you'd think they'd at least let her stand in the background in the movie. Fury doing his own thing makes sense but I'm waiting to see how they explain away the absence of the person running the day to day Avengers operations during a government take over.

 

I believe the death penalty applies to multiple charges of treason and multiple counts of murder in the first, including political assassinations. The Judicial Branch and the Executive Branch would probably both be on the same page regarding the deaths of a US President. As to mind control, I don't think it has been proven publicly that it exists. S.H.I.E.L.D. has been disavowed by the government and been considered disbanded in the public's view. Most people don't know that the Hulk was under the control of the Scarlet Witch, much less that Agent 33 was also under HYDRA control like Bucky was. Or that Erik Selvig, Hawkeye and various other S.H.I.E.L.D agents were controlled by Loki's use of the Mind Gem. To most congressional delegates, all of them look like criminals in their eyes. This is the reason why there is mistrust of both the Avengers and S.H.I.E.L.D. due to actions that occurred.

Cap doesn't want Bucky arrested at all for his crimes and definitely not locked away in prison, or executed for his crimes. He thinks that the government shouldn't regulate what they do and that his best friend be allowed to live out his life in peace.

Given Stark's massive legal team, I'm sure he found a way around that. Bribes and kickbacks.

You're missing the point, Cap won't stop being a hero just because he's told to resign if he were registered. That makes him a criminal then under the Registration Act. So he will continue to fight for the people, regardless of what the government wants out of him. Way back in the late 80's, Steve had to give up being Captain America when a government commission told him to work directly for the government, so he quit being Captain America and created a new suit and identity as the Captain. John Walker, formerly the villainous Super-Patriot, takes over as Captain America. But Walker is more brutal that Steve and is driven to a mental breakdown after his parents were killed, when his real name was exposed to the public. Eventually, it came out that the Red Skull was behind everything and both Caps take him down, after fighting each other. In the end, Walker fakes his death and becomes U.S. Agent, using Steve's new gear, while he goes back to being Captain America. Government regulation caused too many problems for both men and resulted in numerous deaths and injuries.

Because there is too much giving up freedoms for control and security. If the heroes wanted to work for the government, or the police, they would have done so as actual agents of the law. Working just outside of the law gives them the freedoms to operate and do so on an honorary basis. i.e., not killing criminals. Many of the heroes don't believe that killing is necessary and that rehabilitation is the only course of action.

You can question it which is what "Captain America: Civil War" and "Batman v. Superman: Dawn Of Justice" is about. But the end result will be a return to the status quo, or a new one that all sides can be comfortable with.

 

Just out of curiosity... do you also think in the X-men stories that Mutant Registration and the Sentinel Program are a good idea?

 

I'll respond to sinister in a bit.

Antilles, no, I think there's an important distinction. Because being a mutant is something a person is born with, and has no control over, there's a legitimate civil liberties issue. One can have a real debate about the need for freedom versus prudent security measures. Though they've only touched on it during occasional exchanges ("You need a license to drive." "But not to live, Senator") they at least set up a situation that is understandable to feel conflicted about.

Being a superhero, on the other hand, is something between and a hobby. No one has an inherent right to it, so there's no real reason that asking people not to do it is terrible. It makes even less sense to ask us to get behind one man going on the warpath because his paranoid fears of what the government might do to his friend.*

*Never mind that the whole point of the character is supposed to be upholding democratic institutions and norms, whereas trying to exempt his friend from any legal proceedings erodes one of the most fundamental pillars of society.

 

Paranoid? In that universe he has everything to be paranoid about.

In the real world there are indeed dudes in costume who patrol their neighborhood. There is one guy who actively confronts drug dealers while on patrol. These costumed folks have to register with the police, and they do so.

The NY based Guardian Angels do nothing aside from show presence and call the police thought they will physically intervene if need be but they avoid that.

 

darth-sinister
Check out Jessica Jones for more on the MCU mind control issue.

 

Your assumptions only work if the government is always right and never makes a morally bad decision.

 

I hope Sam was able to re up his contract. This film needs Nick Fury's presence especially since you described the perfect insertion...

cue Helicarrier spanking!

 

Exactly. Cap upholds American ideals, which include conscientious objection and resistance to unlawful exercise of authority. He's not a tool of the government and is not automatically beholden to the laws or policies of a given administration.

 

That would make for an interesting standalone movie. *HINT HINT MARVEL*

I mean hell if Hoffenbaywatchguy can get a Nick Fury movie, surely Sam Jackson can, right?

 

Yeah, the SHIELD comic book was always Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD. So far in the MCU the character has had the most screentime in a Captain America movie. He deserves his own film, IMO!

 

Unfortunately for him Coulson seems to have taken over most of his comic roles like being Daisy Johnson's father figure and mentor and doing the Secret Warriors and fighting Hydra, etc...
But would be nice to see Fury get a solo movie. Him, Hill, computer guy from Winter Soldier and AoU, etc...

 

No, it isn't. Particularly in regards to the criminal justice system. They are completely independent from the government. There are plenty of prestigious law firms willing to represent clients in high profile cases. For any death penalty case, there are automatic appeals, and if those don't work you have further recourse through things like the Supreme Court and habeas corpus. Even if one judge or prosecutor is biased, the next may not be. Or the jury can still be swayed to be reasonable.

How is it at all justifiable that he is unwilling to even try these things? It's a process that takes years, but Captain America can't even be bothered at all? Muhammad Ali can go to prison for being a conscientious objector, and have his career completely stalled. Plenty of prisoners have endured false accusations or wrongful convictions, only to be cleared later in the process by the same judicial system. Why is this one guy so special that he doesn't have to go through the same process as literally every other person in the country? Just because he's Captain America's personal friend? That's the principle we're defending? That friends of powerful people should get to have special exceptions to the rules? Because I otherwise thought that was a description of corruption.

 

You keep pushing aside the fact that in the world the story takes place in they are not going to put Bucky through a legal process, they are going to kill him on sight.

 

And Galaga Dude. Can't forget Galaga Dude.

 

The United States doesn't have a third branch of government in the MCU?