Amph Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Discussion in 'Community' started by gonzoforce, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    First off, I don't see any evidence of "knee jerk" anything. All those who made criticisms offered limited, specific critiques with supporting evidence. Just as importantly no one ever said. . .whatever it is you just tried to express. The question is whether the US ever did anything wrong in entirety of World War II. Captain America claimed that everything that was done by the Allies (or at least the US) in that war "made people more free." We took issue with that, and thereby worked several people into lather, because god-forbid anyone ever criticize the United States in any way about anything at all.
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  2. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    1. Cap said he and the SSR, if you want you can think he means the whole USA, did things that made it hard to sleep at night. So right there you have an admission they did some shady things.
    2. That does not contradict Cap saying everything he and the SSR did was still to keep people free.
  3. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Gee thanks, I really needed to lose days of my life in there.

    But yeah....[face_hypnotized] Especially the link back to Obediah Stone.
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  4. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    To quote a certain recently returned series on HBO, "there's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." Acknowledging that yes, even the Allies did some horrible things is not the same as saying both sides were equally terrible and the world would be the same after a Nazi victory. Without a doubt, the Axis needed to be stopped. The Third Reich's defeat is a huge historical victory and many brave, noble people fought and died to assure that happened. But that doesn't mean you are required to ignore the awful things both sides did then and have carried out since. You can have pride in your country, tout its virtues, and still acknowledge its flaws, both great and small. That's the only way you fix them and improve it. And I think that that's an attitude the Captain not only agreed with but was shown to personify.

    Sent from beyond the Wall
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  5. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    During Nick Fury's big action sequence, I wonder how often they had to re-shoot because Samuel L. Jackson kept dropping the f-bomb? [face_mischief] Probably a lot, if this interview on the Daily Show is any indication [face_laugh]
  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    So...much...Fridge Horror...[face_skull]
  7. Adam of Nuchtern Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Saw this again yesterday and regarding the discussion in the INSIGHT bay, Fury's line is basically "I read those old SSR files. The greatest generation wasn't exactly squeaky clean." So I think it was meant to be inferred that he was specifically talking about the actions of SSR and not the US government as a whole, though I can see why Wocky interpreted it the way he did. And I agree with him that Steve's "It was ultimately okay because...FREEDOM" response left a sour taste in my mouth (he always struck as more of a "The ends don't justify means" type).
  8. pronker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2007
    star 3
    I've enjoyed this debate, thanks all.

    The elevator scene is what I took away from the film; Cap is deciding how to be fair and give folks a chance to leave. All the action stuff elsewhere was great to watch, but the elevator had some nice directorly touches like drips of sweat, sidelong looks, tension via the eventual surrounding of Cap by the bad guys, so yeah. I liked that scene thematically.[face_cowboy]
  9. heels1785 Jedi Draft Commissioner

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2003
    star 6
    Just caught TWS. First Marvel film I've seen in theaters, and it was well worth it. Easily the best film of the MCU - Robert Redford was excellent, as was Scarlett Johannson.
    lbr789 and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  10. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6

    That's an interesting interpretation. When I saw the movie, I felt that Steve was struck by the comment from Fury--that he felt a bit of cognitive dissonance--and that his response was almost reflexive, a rationalization. Furthermore, the whole point of that scene was that he realized where that line of thinking gets you--a top-secret underground super-complex with dangerous weapons in the hands of an industrialized spy network capable of invading the private lives of everyone on the planet*. The words fell flat as they left his mouth because I felt like he didn't quite believe them himself.

    But then again, I suspect I was bringing my own biases to the viewing of the film.

    *Perhaps the most insidious line about SHIELD in the movies, in my opinion came from a throw-away line meant to tell us how awesome SHIELD was in The Avengers. It was when Coulson matter-of-factly says "We're sweeping every wirelessly accessible camera on the planet. Cell phones, laptops. If it's connected to a satellite, it's eyes and ears for us."

    The super-heli-carriers were a natural outgrowth of that mindset.
  11. Adam of Nuchtern Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I'll keep that in mind the next time I see it.
    Souderwan likes this.
  12. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    I think that plays a big part in it. Compromising morals or values has to happen to some degree when fighting a war. For Cap the compromises he made he reconciles them as he did them to make people free. For Fury he accepts the compromises as it keeps people and the world safe. For Pierce he compromises for the same reason as Fury. The issue comes with how far people will take compromising morals. Fury and Pierce wanted the same thing, but Pierce was willing to go farther than Fury would.

    But at the same time it's not saying 'NEVER COMPROMISE' as Cap and Widow still do morally dubious things to top Pierce. They steal a car, kidnap and torture someone, presumably kidnap a member of the World Security Council, and Widow releases everything SHIELD has, which will get A LOT of people killed, be they undercover agents or people in hiding or witness protection. Not to mention not allowing SHIELD to be salvaged will cause countless more deaths as Hydra now has no one to stop them and likely still has many government agencies infiltrated.

    It's rather ironic as if Cap wants SHIELD gone to keep people free... he's done a lot of things to do that which will cause sleepless nights. History repeats.
  13. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6

    Agreed on both points. And I think that's what the dichotomy I believe the movie strives to explore. For want of a better expression, "Freedom isn't free". Many Americans (even on opposite sides of the political spectrum) have used that phrase, or ones similar to it, without really thinking about it. Similarly, "Security isn't free" is just as valid. In many ways, most of us acknowledge this fact, but don't really care because we don't think we personally have to pay the price. There's no conscription or requirement for civil service. Most of us pay a relatively small percentage of our income in taxes and we all whine when taxes or fees are raised on us (but are perfectly happy if they're raised on others). So the price of "freedom" or "security" isn't felt directly. And when a significant enough event/disaster occurs--man-made or natural--we turn to the government and demand that they fix it without even considering what the cost might be; what we might be willing to give up to achieve whatever nebulous goal we have in mind.

    Then a Snowden shows up and tells us that the price is an abdication of privacy. Maybe it's the loss of someone you know in the war. Or perhaps its news of death-by-drone without due process. Or maybe it's the FCC observing news rooms. Each time these prices come up, each of us make a decision about whether that's a price we're willing to pay to continue living our lives. And frankly, most of us say "Well, that doesn't really affect me. I don't see what the big deal is".

    I think Cap knew that the decision to completely divulge SHIELD to the world would result in a very heavy price being paid in blood and treasure. A very fair argument can be made that it wasn't his decision alone to make. But then again, in situations like this, the line between hero and villain is a thin one.
  14. Six Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2014
    star 4
    [IMG]
    It costs folks like you and me, and if we don't all chip in, we'll never pay that bill
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  15. Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager

    Manager
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    star 6
  16. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6
    Maybe it's your turn to die kicking some ass.
  17. Six Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2014
    star 4
  18. Six Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2014
    star 4
    Okay I was bored so I did this. Didn't get to finish it(I was going to add Nick Fury and Falcon in it) because the website I was using(don't have photoshop) crashed.
    [IMG]
  19. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Captain America, **** yeah! Throwin' his shield to save the ******* day yeah!
  20. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6
    I cannot overstate how awesome this is.
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  21. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    If they ever have to recast Cap, I want to see...

    Mmmmaaatt... DAMON!

    Edit: In case anyone at Disney/Marvel is reading this, that was SARCASM!
    Last edited by Sarge, Apr 18, 2014
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  22. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    "No, I won't suck your ****. My time is too valuable."---Nick Fury
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  23. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I was pissed that Sitwell was HYDRA... :(
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's why it was done. The perfect way to get the fans that knew him and
    Show Spoiler
    Ward.
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  25. DarthIntegral Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    Are you saying it didn't sit well with you?