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TFA TLJ Carrie Fisher (Leia Organa) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by MattOrgana, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    How should Episode 9 handle Leia's passing? I was thinking of a conversation between Poe and Connix, similar to how Kingdom of the Crystal Skull acknowledged that Henry Sr. and Marcus had passed away. Some nice moment of tribute to all her sacrifices.
     
  2. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Well, I think a time skip would be unavoidable at this point seeing as how they'd have to come up with a reason for Leia's absence.
     
  3. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    This is not a tribute thread. Thoughtful critique is just as welcome as thoughtful celebrating - bashing, trolling and baiting are what are off limits.
     
    TCF-1138 likes this.
  4. HandofSkywalker86

    HandofSkywalker86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Leia Poppins was cringey as all hell, and prolly one of the worst decisions of the movie. Honestly, they should have just killed her off there. That said Carrie's performance/appearance/mannerisms all seemed much better in this film than in TFA where... it was kinda painful to watch her onscreen.
     
    WatTamborWoo likes this.
  5. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Backpacking One Pack a Day Mod of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    I wasn't fond of the execution, although I suppose in space one would not expect to see flutters of clothing - if she'd been blown out and we first saw her with limbs akimbo or somesuch, and slowly you saw her uncurl and drift to the ship, it'd play better in my mind. But surviving itself was not "cringey as hell."
     
  6. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2015
    In terms of mourning that her planet has blown up, let’s remember that this movie was a fun adventure ride through back to the serials of the 30s. Not that these people are cartoon characters, but you can only do so much without slowing down the action and fun. ObiWan, like Han Solo is a character in the film, as opposed to an object like Alderaan in a movie.

    The same goes for this... you can’t slow down the action. So instead you get nice beatific moments where you can fill in the blanks like the one mentioned above... Leia’s quiet contemplation when they come out of hyperspace. And to me, any sadness and loss is earned and let out from Mark and Carrie’s tender moment... for them, and for Han... reinforced with the Luke and Leia and Han and Leia theme played over it.

    For the next film, I don’t know how it will be handled. I think it’s obvious that as the second part of the trilogy, all hope is meant to be lost for Kylo and Luke gone... just the spark of hope for rebellion. The structure, to me, for Leia seems to be to redeem her son. First act: I know there’s still light in him. second act: I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone. Third act: ?? Would seem the plan would be when all is lost, Leia gets closure and peace in saving her son in some manner. Most likely with Rey. And the structure would have been an interesting flip of the original trilogy.... instead of a son redeeming a father, a mother now redeems a son.

    My suspicion is they will want to keep with this as closely as they can, and Leia’s role will be kept under tight security.... like Yoda in this one. I think the Oman was always to do something with Harrison Ford in the last part as a surprise, but now it will also be with Carrie Fisher. I imagine with a stand in and manipulated footage. Hamill will naturally be back too.
     
  7. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Painful to watch her in TFA?

    Even in death people still taking pot shots at Fisher’s appearance. This kind of crap was banned when she was alive. I’m pretty sure it’s not back on the table in her death.
     
  8. HandofSkywalker86

    HandofSkywalker86 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2004
    I'm not trying to take potshots. At all. Carrie Fisher, as Leia, was one of my childhood heroes. She was basically the female hero I grew up with. A precursor to strong female heroes like Ripley and Sarah Connor, and I definitely wish she was still around. She passed away much too soon. Still, that doesn't change the fact that her performance and appearance in TFA felt a bit painful to watch. That's just how I perceived her in TFA. She seemed much better in the TLJ for whatever reason. I'm glad that her last performance in a Star Wars movie was spot on, though I wish they had been able to give her a memorable send off.
     
  9. dogprivilege

    dogprivilege Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I'm sorry but this just seems objectively false to me, the film does give Leia multiple moments where she dwells on the losses taken by the fleet and her own personal losses (Holdo), something the other films literally have not done. TLJ is the only movie where we actually have seen Leia react and be vulnerable to the losses she's faced...it's a problem in the OT too, as you've already said, but I feel this it's some weird criticism to point fingers at RJ for not somehow making up for all that in TLJ.

    Also....this is the ST and Leia DOES exist to support the new characters' arc. Like that is the purpose of the character, stated by everyone involved in the film.

    I don't completely disagree with your criticism as a critique for the overall handling of Leia's character in the films but it feels like a lot to zero in on TLJ so heavily for not doing enough for Leia's character when it's the one film that's given Leia a really substantive emotional role since she was introduced.
     
    BloodStripe and jaqen like this.
  10. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2015
    They wasted Force User theme in Leia's arc. They should have mentioned her abilities in TFA the least. They should have foreshadow her abilities.
    Instead they made us scratching our head thinking "Well, why did Leia never even learn such a useful techniques?" after TFA and then she pulled such an over-the-top trick in TLJ.

    That theme doesnt have the smoothness in it. And thats why its confused many people. They should have foreshadow it. Show one little trick from Leia in TFA, mention her training briefly in a couple line there and here. That would make her Force Superman scene less silly and more appropriate and reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  11. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Leia was using the Force in the OT and TFA with zero training.

    So why would you need explanations of her using it decades later?

    Luke got to use the Force untrained. Rey is extremely powerful, untrained. Anakin used the Force, untrained.

    But Leia, the daughter of the Chosen One, needs to have explanation for using the Force?
     
  12. BlurryUFOs

    BlurryUFOs Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    leia having force abilities has always been a truth for me. i’m surprised how little child of the chosen one means to some people

    however, with our current understanding of the force this was the most incredible feat we’ve ever seen. and it looks stupid and it lowers the stakes. my dislike of it has nothing to do with leia.
     
  13. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Actually, the real force required to accelerate a mass of 75 kg to a speed of about 2 m/s over 2 seconds (the rest is just intertia) is very little. Way less than what Luke did to pull the X-Wing a little bit over the swamp.

    I do not feel it lowers the stakes, she almost died. It was nothing like she walked out of it like a boss or something.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  14. BlurryUFOs

    BlurryUFOs Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2016
    those numbers mean nothing to me, it’s the context that matters imo

    but i can maybe accept it if i look at like the jedi and vader would never be in a situation that required such over the top use of the force because they were better trained, and that’s why we see this extreme last ditch effort from leia because she didn’t know how else to deal and you’re right she did almost die. it’s bs but hey

    i wonder how much rian considered these questions. i’m very curious about his answer. i guess it gives leia her skywalker moment which i wanted, but i would have preferred to see her pilot
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  15. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    It's odd to come on the internet and see posters proclaiming, some as fact, that the Leia scene was a bust.

    Yet in the real world I haven't spoken to a single person who feels that way. Several, unprompted, even mentioned it as a highlight.
     
    MattOrgana likes this.
  16. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2015
    each their own. The argument of foreshadowing being problematic is um, problematic for me. In context, it wasn't decided until Return of the Jedi and by then the structure was already worked out and couldn't fully accommodate more than the tip off of her potential. And since Force Awakens is the next film, albeit 30 years later, it would make more sense to reveal Leia finds the Force along the way instead of exposition of it happening during the interim.

    So Force gives us the letdown of ohhhh, Leia doesn't have the power... and then bam - waitaminute, what about the Han death moment? And Last Jedi just brings home the intended surprise - we're meant to be caught off guard by it.
     
    Ruffmeian, jaqen and MattOrgana like this.
  17. Grand_Poobah

    Grand_Poobah Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2001
    While I think the floating in space thing could have been done in a way that seems less silly (for example, change the pose she's in), that is NOT why I found the scene off-putting. I like that they finally showed Leia using the force, and she's obviously very powerful if it let her survive in space. BUT, with Fisher's death, this is all we will ever get to see of Leia using the force, and she did so to save HERSELF. It would have been much more Leia-like to have used the force to save others -- for example, holding part of the ship's hull together after the blast, until the crew can seal it. Or pulling someone else who was ejected into space, back into the ship. Or something like that, where she's saving others too and not just herself. To me, THAT would have been more of a Leia moment.
     
  18. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Han Solo will appear before Kylo Ren.
     
  19. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2015
    I agree. And Grand, I think the problem is that many are looking at it with the knowledge of a possible finished product because of her untimely passing, and not the second section of three parts. I imagine her next Force moment in the third installment would have built on the Force Awakens and Last Jedi moments to culminate in her saving others.
     
    MattOrgana likes this.
  20. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I don’t understand why people are so surprised she used the Force to survive. She’s always been sensitive to it. In Empire she senses Luke and tells Chewie to turn back so they can save him. Later on, when Luke tells Leia he has to confront Vader:
    Luke Skywalker: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has it. I have it and... [looks directly at Leia] My sister has it. [waits for the words to sink in] Yes. It's you, Leia.
    Princess Leia Organa: [astonished] I know. Somehow, I've always known.

    She feels Han. She feels Luke. She feels Kylo. JJ has commented that Leia is actually pretty Force strong, but merely chooses not to actively use it and practice:
    “It was a great question, and one that we talked about quite a bit, even with Carrie [Fisher]…Why did she not take advantage of this natural Force strength that this character had. And one of the answers was that it was simply a choice that she made, that her decision to run the Rebellion, and ultimately this Resistance, and consider herself a General, as opposed to a Jedi. It was simply a choice that she took.”

    In a time where her life was in a do or die situation, it’s really not out of possibility that she’d willingly tap into something she’s always been aware of, and had used, even minorly, before. It probably wasn’t even a conscious decision she made, and the audience is meant to be flabbergasted by it. But it’s not out of the blue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    wobbits and MattOrgana like this.
  21. Rodie

    Rodie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2014
    What seems strange is that Force allows her to survive the cold vacuum of space and float back into the ship (where is the airlock, btw? or do the bystanders who pull her in just magically not get sucked out into space?) and yet after all that she is still in a coma? Like, why? C'mon, Force, if you're going to save Leia, go all the way, why is she still in a coma afterward? Seems incongruous and unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  22. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    That begs why Leia wouldn't just lift the rocks at the end of TLJ? Why not just confront Kylo by herself?

    The way RJ introduced this Force power was to have Leia use it basically instinctually and subconsciously; she didn't know what she was doing. She had an incredible power that surfaced at a moment of great need. That way you acknowledge, finally, that she's got a powerful Force potential as the daughter of Anakin, but avoid huge plotholes that beg the question "Well if Leia is so powerful why didn't she just use the Force in X situation".

    If you had Leia just casually holding together the hull of a ship, it opens way too many cans of worms.
     
    MattOrgana and Ruffmeian like this.
  23. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    I know right! Like how the Force protected Luke from even needing a Bacta Tank in TESB. And it totally grew back Anakin's arm in AOTC!

    I love it when they show that Force users are invincible and can't be hurt cuz the Force!
     
    MattOrgana likes this.
  24. antartoo

    antartoo Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2015
    I think during the force pull, the camera angle could have been cut to Leia's POV (pulling slowly towards the ship, with Leia's theme music in the background), which may make it look less silly than a flight in a third person's view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  25. Rodie

    Rodie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 16, 2014
    Why would the Force heal Luke's facial scars when he wasn't even using the Force to try to heal himself? It's a terrible analogy. We've never seen the Force grow a limb back on someone either.

    My point is Leia's eye's open and she's in some form of awareness when she floats back into the ship, then she's suddenly in a coma back inside the ship. If you're going to give her God-like power, why then put her in a coma after? Doesn't add up. Obviously Rian can write the Force to do or not do whatever he wants. Just seems weird, like an obvious plot mechanism to have Holdo take over for a comatose Leia so Holdo can clash with Poe. Bleh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018