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TFA TLJ Carrie Fisher (Leia Organa) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by MattOrgana, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2018
    I love Carrie Fisher, but Leia was treated poorly as a character in The Last Jedi. The film makes her out to be a failed leader and no one in the galaxy respects or believes in her cause to come rescue The Resistance. Also, I have a problem with Leia giving up on her son. How does she know Ben is truly gone? As the audience we have never seen Leia interact with Ben.

    Early in the film we saw him spare his mother's life. That shows us there is still some humanity left in him. You can't show us Ben sparing Leia's life early in the movie and then have Leia say her son is truly gone. They contradict one another. That's sloppy writing. I find it baffling how Leia and Ben don't have a confrontation scene in the movie.
     
  2. Mother_Talzin

    Mother_Talzin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2014
    The slap was comical, it reminded me of Throw Momma From The Train, so I actually loled. It felt out of character for Leia, but was great for Carrie. TLJ was just an excellent performance by her - I wouldn't change it.
     
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  3. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    It might have a little something to do with Ben murdering her husband, his own father, and trying to murder Leia herself at the moment she expressed that lost hope.

    Why would you expect Leia to hold on to her son, regardless of how evil he is?
     
  4. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I agree with every word. If you want to write Leia giving up on her son while a strange girl is obsessed with saving his soul, don’t have the son’s first substantive demonstration of goodness be a weakness for his mother that his mother seems to be shown to sense. Or, if you want to go that route, have a mother/son moment to explore it. Isn’t this supposed to be a family saga? I could entirely forget that from TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  5. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 31, 2018
    Two words, Darth Vader. Her brother redeemed their father who happened to be one of the most evil people in the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  6. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    I didn't see it out of character. I saw it as disciplining/disappointment in her surrogate son. He disobeyed orders, cost lives, ships and ultimately wasn't growing up -- it was meant as a wake up call. Stronger than just words.
     
  7. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    And Leia wasn't having any of that.

    Luke and Leia are two totally different characters. Not sure what Vader's redemption has to do with Leia losing hope for the son who literally just murdered her husband and, at the time of that conversation, is trying to kill her too.

    There's this weird thing with Leia, where so many people just expect her to be a robot who can't have human reactions.

    Hence folks saying it's out of character for her to slap Poe for getting her people killed, and losing hope for the son trying to wipe her from the face of the galaxy.
     
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  8. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 25, 2003
    I loved Leia's slap. It's like the culmination of all the things I always thought Leia WOULD do in those situations. I kind of always got the impression she was always on the verge of slapping someone (usually Han), but always restrained herself. But now, as she's older, wiser and presumably more "world weary" after all she's been thru over the decades, it's like "I don't have time for !#*& like this anymore!" I LOVED it.
     
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  9. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 31, 2018
    So you're basically saying Leia learned nothing from her brother redeeming their father. Well, that's good to know. Also, I never said anything about wanting Leia to act like a robot and not have human reactions. In fact, my main complaint with the movie is Leia isn't given any moment to fully express her feelings. How does she feel about Han's death? How does she feel about her son? Having a one sentence throw away line of "He's gone now," doesn't explain anything. Why does she feel Ben is gone? The movie never gives us an answer.
     
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  10. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Leia wasn't a child who needed to learn anything from Luke helping redeem Vader. She never thought of him as her father; she had Bail. Luke was hung up on Vader, never Leia.

    And what does Vader's redemption a 1000 years ago have to do with Leia and her son? Kylo gets to be pure evil and she's suppose to always keep a candle in the window for him? Even as he literally kills her and all she believes in?

    Nope. Not buying what you're selling.

    There isn't a Star Wars film in existence that reveals more of Leia's emotional life than TLJ. It sounds like you were looking for something loud, obvious and maudlin. If you look again, and pick up the naunce, you'll see Leia reacting to Han's death. How she feels about her son. About the state of the galaxy. About her friend's sacrifice. About her brother. It's all their, and in a way never before done for Leia in any SW film.
     
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  11. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 31, 2018
    Kylo is not pure evil. Rian Johnson SHOWED the audience he couldn't kill his mother. Also, Johnson SHOWED Kylo Ren couldn't kill Rey. If Kylo was pure evil he would have killed them both on the spot. So why does Leia TELL the audience she feels her son is gone? The number one rule of screenwriting is to show, not tell. It would have been more impactful for Leia as a character if she released her son is gone while confronting him. Instead, we are told Leia feels her son is gone though we have never seen the two interact with each other.
     
  12. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jul 11, 2015
    You’re forgetting that Leia is saying this in the second part of a trilogy when it should be the darkest. She has a moment of strong despair where Luke reminds her that no one is really gone... and I’m sure the original arc was intended to Leia be crucial for her son’s ultimate fate in part three.

    I think we have to look at the set up in Force Awkaens when she tells Han, “we can still save him.... me... you!” as the real foreshadowing, and Last Jedi as just setting up the doubt going into the homestretch. So it seems like storytelling 101.
     
  13. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2014
    Yeah, makes sense. Can't really blame them for not knowing Carrie wouldn't be in IX. I think the original layout would've been:

    TFA...Han: "Our son's gone." Leia: "No, we can still save him. Me. You."
    TLJ...Leia: "I held out hope for so long, but I know my son's gone." Luke: "No one's ever really gone."
    IX...Leia still holds out a small part of her heart for Ben and helps turn him back against all odds.
     
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  14. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 20, 2004
    Uh --- isn't he there to destroy the resistance and finally kill his mother and those who are left? And he wants to kill Luke. Maybe my definition of evil is different than others'

    How can she think he's redeemable? Besides Luke basically tells her that Ben is not gone and it's not him who can save Ben -- but maybe her. Or another
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
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  15. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 20, 2004
    A damn shame that Carrie can't finish that arc. I have high hopes for JJ to pull off the end of Leia's journey and see how she participates in ben's redemption
     
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  16. MrElculver2424

    MrElculver2424 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 11, 2014
    I mean, for all we know Leia thought that Kylo was the one who fired on the Raddus bridge. We don't really know because the movie makes no attempt to clarify this. You'd think she'd be able to feel through the Force that it wasn't him, but, again, the movie clarifies nothing.
     
  17. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    True. It doesn't clarify. I'm also thinking she resigned herself to giving up on be because Luke said he can't save him. Maybe she didn't think she could do it alone? Leia is ben's weakness. So if anyone can do it it's her. And probably with Rey's help. I would've loved to see Carrie holding a lightsaber.

    Changing subjects -- She may not have held a lightsaber but she slayed with her space jewelry. I always suspected her signet rings held some double meaning but they were just decorative.
     
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  18. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

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    Jul 22, 2004
    Apparently Leia is suppose to be endlessly abused by her son, and never change her mind about him, because, you know, Luke/Vader.
     
  19. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 20, 2004
    You mean because rian Johnson. Because Kathleen Kennedy. Because SJW. Because JJ Abrams. Be cuz Disney.

    I bought some really cool Leia art that I will have to share here because general Leia is everything.

    Ok so I don't know how to attach an image from my phone
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  20. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 31, 2018
    A good sequel should be able to stand on its own and tell its own story within the franchise as a whole. You shouldn't have to say, "I’m sure the original arc was intended to Leia be crucial for her son’s ultimate fate in part three." If Leia's original arc was intended for her to be crucial in her son's fate in Episode 9 then why didn't Leia have one single scene with Ben in The Last Jedi? If that was the case Johnson would have set that up.
     
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  21. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jul 11, 2015
    She did have a scene with him, granted they weren’t in the same room, but the implied connection was there. I mean, I don’t see how it’s any different than Luke not redeeming Vader in Empire. Shouldn’t the second part of a three piece story set up that the situation seems hopeless? But if you don’t think that was the intended case, that’s fine. I thought with Kennedy saying Fisher would have been more center stage that it probably wasn’t going to be just behind a space ship command counsel, and when Rey defeats Kylo and the Bad Guys, Leia doesn’t just say, “way to go.”
     
  22. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 20, 2004
    I don't think some fans understand that. It's like I said in another thread -- those who didn't like the film will never like it and always find something they don't like or will criticize it heavily.

    The last Jedi stood on its own to setup the next part of a 3-part film. And if Star Wars ended tomorrow -- you'd have a good ending too. I thought the film was similar to TESB. The first order struck too and also "won" to an extent. Yet TESB also stood on its own despite the new revelation of Luke/vader and yoda saying there is another

    This discussion is about Leia and her journey in the sequel trilogy. Since Carrie passed, we've learned she was supposed to have a larger role. Hence the speaking of "intended arcs."
     
  23. Solo88

    Solo88 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 31, 2018
    I would be surprised if the implied Force connection was written in the script. To me it looks like they edited it that way post-production by showing a few close ups of Carrie Fisher. Why is there no dialogue between the two of them then? You don't see how it's any different than Luke not redeeming Vader in Empire? Luke learned Vader was his father 15 minutes before the film was over. There was no time in Empire to do that. While, right off the bat of this sequel trilogy Leia knows Kylo Ren is her son.

    How does The Last Jedi stand on its own to setup Leia's arc in Episode 9 to deal with her son? That is what we are discussing here. Intended arcs are suppose to have seeds planted within the film. For example, Luke wanting to train and become a Jedi like his father in A New Hope. So when we get to Empire and he trains with Yoda it feels like a natural progression for Luke as a character. It's weird how Leia and Ben have not shared one single line of dialogue together in two movies. Especially, if Leia was intended to have a significant role in her son's fate in Episode 9.
     
  24. DarthHass

    DarthHass Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2004
    I'll bite because maybe it was difficult to see -- here are your seeds courtesy of my point of view.

    In TFA -- Leia and Han share a scene where they explain what's been going on and provide exposition for their son. She says snoke turned their son to the dark side but they can still save him -- Han and Leia. Han questions it because he's not strong in the force but Leia tells him that since he's ben's father they have a shot because there's still light in him. She even pleads to th and bring him home because she honestly believes that he has that power. She can't go because she has to lead the resistance. Also -- why Han? Wouldn't they know better? Human emotions lead to irrational behavior don't they? Padme went to anakin after hearing he was a sith. Someone you love is in danger you talk to them or stage an intervention. Anyway.....

    Ultimately Han dies and couldn't bring his son back although he did falter and almost considered it (the push/pull of the lightsaber and eventual shadow in that scene to me implied it). And Leia felt han's death -- crushing her spirit.

    Hours/days later during the flee of the resistance still seeing from han's death she and Ben "share a scene" through their force connection. To me it implied she knew she was in danger of death and had a look of anger on her face....concern maybe? Empathy? Her facial expressions spoke as if she was sharing some unknown dialogue to Ben who couldn't kill his mother. The sign that if someone could bring him back, she could. Then the TIEs fired and almost killed her. Cut to the battle of Crait and such little resistance left. Kylo supposedly tried to kill her and no one is willing to stand against the first order and she resigned herself to failure until like tells her "I can't save him." To which she says I know my son is gone. And that she held out hope. I see human frailty -- Han died, her son's trying to kill her, Luke just told me he can't do anything. Until he tells her "no one's ever really gone." Giving han's dice to her to me implied -- she's the one who can save him and has to. Her love for Han, for Ben, her connection -- can bring him to the light.

    Her escape and survival means she was set up to do this. With Rey of course since Rey also has a connection and obvious influence on Ben. Poe is now on his way to be the "leader" Leia needed so she can transition away from her responsibilities if others do that. Kind of like how people start shifting off responsibilities before they retire. They start stepping down.

    Leia's position reminds me of the Poltergeist series -- Diane freeling (played by JoBeth Williams) when she's told that her love for her children can bring her daughter back.

    I can't speak for the scene with Ben/Leia being inserted in post production or not but to me it was always there since there's too much going on around them to have to pull that attack scene together. Let alone I can't see rian Johnson asking Carrie to stare at the camera and make faces. "Look sad. More intense. Now angry"
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  25. Scruffy nerf

    Scruffy nerf Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jul 11, 2015
    Also to remember Han, Luke and Leia are more supporting characters to the overall arcs of Rey, Kylo. So in terms of that, the intended arc is certainly there with Kylo weighing the memory of his family... reinforced by the final image of him left all alone and the token of his father’s (family’s) dice fading away.

    Leia is usually depicted as always be right in her instincts in the original trilogy, just guarded about her emotions. So when she tells Han, “there’s still good in him, I know it.” it’s meants as a narrative trigger that we forget but will most likely boomerang at the end.