Catholicism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TrainingForUtopia, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    From the same web page:

    We should not be satisfied merely to keep the commandments of God, but should always be ready to do good deeds, even when they are not commanded. The commandments of God state the minimum requirements for salvation. They should be kept not merely according to the letter, but also according to the spirit, which obliges us to strive for greater perfection.

    Actual sin is any willful thought, desire, word, action or ommission forbidden by the law of God.

    I.   PRIDE     Unrestrained appreciation of our own worth.
    II.   GREED     Immoderate desire for earthly goods.
    III.   LUST      Hankering for impure pleasures.
    IV.   ANGER     Inordinate desire for revenge.
    V.   GLUTTONY  Unrestrained use of food and drink.
    VI.   ENVY      Sorrow over another's good fortune.
    VII.   SLOTH     Laxity in keeping the Faith and the practice of virtue, due to the effort involved.



    THE FOUR SINS CRYING TO HEAVEN FOR VENGEANCE

    I.   Willful murder (including abortion)
    II.   The sin of Sodom.
    III.   Oppression of the poor.
    IV.   Defrauding laborers of their wages.


    THE SIX SINS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT

    I.   Presumption of God's mercy.
    II.   Despair.
    III.   Impugning the known truth.
    IV.   Envy at another's spiritual good.
    V.   Obstinacy in sin.
    VI.   Final impenitence.


     

    NINE WAYS OF BEING ACCESSORY TO ANOTHER'S SIN

    I.   By counsel.
    II.   By command.
    III.   By consent.
    IV.   By provocation.
    V.   By praise or flattery.
    VI.   By concealment.
    VII.   By partaking.
    VIII.   By silence.
    IX.   By defense of the ill done.


     
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    We should not be satisfied merely to keep the commandments of God, but should always be ready to do good deeds, even when they are not commanded. The commandments of God state the minimum requirements for salvation. They should be kept not merely according to the letter, but also according to the spirit, which obliges us to strive for greater perfection.

    How can you keep them to the letter when there's all of that that is left out?

  3. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    "The commandments of God state the minimum requirements for salvation."

    The ten commandments were never meant as a means to salvation, because in case you haven't noticed, they are impossible to keep. Their real purpose was to show us that only through God's grace can we be saved.

    "How can you keep them to the letter when there's all of that that is left out?"

    Ha ha, exactly dude!

    But so far everything I've always thought about Catholicism has been proven to be true in this thread:

    it's noting but a set of rules, not a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, the way it was inteded to be.
  4. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    These are some of the fallacies of the church.

    Edit: it's noting but a set of rules, not a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, the way it was inteded to be.

    From this argument, many of the different sects of christianity have been created. Religion is a means of creating a relationship with christ. That is why he taught us never to look down upon anyone that may be different.
  5. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Wait, so you admit that the Catholic church does have some fallacies?
  6. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    No religion is perfect.


    edit above
  7. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Well, I'm glad that you can at least admit that. :)

    The same can't always be said for a lot of other people.
  8. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    No religion is perfect.

    True.
  9. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Well faith in Jesus is perfect, i would rather follow Him who is perfect!!!! Why don't you join?
  10. ImperialFC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    Actually, this thread isn't surprising at all. When I was in high school and I was driving the swim team (yes they all managed to fit in my teeny Sundance)a girl said she thought "Catholics didn't believe in God, but instead only worship Mary." That really alerted me to very odd things people believe Catholicism to be about. Now I'm not the best person to defend the Roman Catholic Church since I'm not exactly praticing (Easter and Christmas, that's about it :)), but I know for a fact that no one puts Mary before Jesus. However, being that she was the Mother of God, I think she deserves a measure of respect and adoration that befits someone who was picked out of all the woman of the world to be the one to give birth to Jesus.

    As to the graven images here are some things from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/comm1.html#GRAVEN


    "2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure...."[66] It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. "He is the all," but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."[67] He is "the author of beauty."[68]

    2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.[69]


    2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
    Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]"

    And another site also does a good job of explaining the use of statues, icons, etc.:

    http://www.transporter.com/apologia/faq01.htm#9

    "Aren't all those statues in the Catholic Church the same as worshipping graven images?

    First, one must understand what a graven image is in the context of the Old Testament. To make a graven image is to create an image out of some medium, such as clay or wood, and worship it as a God. The statues or pictures of Mary are not worshipped as a God. If a Catholic worships a statue of Mary as a God, they are guilty of idolatry.

    The Lord did not forbid the making of images. In fact, God commanded Moses to shape a brazen serpent. This serpent was able to cure the people of the serpent bite, if they looked upon it (Numbers 21:8). Later, when the people turned to idolatry of the serpent, Hezekiah had it destroyed (II Kings 18:4). Here you see the balance. Images are good, if they are helpful, but not if they encourage idolatry.

    Moreover, the Lord commanded that the image of two Cherubim be constructed on the top of the Ark of the Covenant on either side of the Mercy seat. Was this the sin of idolatry? I think not.

    Mary is the mother of God and the saints are the friends of God. If keeping their pictures or statues helps to inspire us to a more holy life, then it is a good thing. Don't you have pictures of your family in your home? Is this idolatry? Or when someone dies, should you destroy all images or pictures of them, lest you be guilty of worshipping them?"





  11. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    All of that is biblically unsupported. Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. God has no mother.
  12. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    One must understand the concept of Mary to understand what it is we feel about her.

    I take no credit for this article though I agree with it to an extent.

    Understanding Catholic Devotion to Mary

    By: Thomas Merton

    This is often forgotten by Catholics themselves, and therefore it is not surprising that those who are not Catholic often have a completely wrong conception of Catholic devotion to the Mother of God. They imagine, and sometimes we can understand their reasons for doing so, that Catholics treat the Blessed Virgin as an almost divine being in her own right, as if she had some glory, some power, some majesty of her own that placed her on a level with Christ Himself. They regard the Assumption of Mary into heaven as a kind of apotheosis placed in the Redemption would seem to be equal to that of her Son. +++ But this is all completely contrary to the true mind of the Catholic Church.+++ It forgets that Mary's chief glory is in her nothingness, in the fact of being the "Handmaid of the Lord," as one who in becoming the Mother of God acted simply in loving submission to His command, in the pure obedience of faith. She is blessed not because of some mythical pseudo-divine prerogative, but in all her human and womanly limitations as one who has believed. It is the faith and the fidelity of this humble handmaid, "full of grace" that enables her to be the perfect instrument of God, and nothing else but His instrument. The work that was done in her purely the work of God. "He that is mighty hath done great things in me." The glory of Mary is purely and simply the glory of God in her. and she, like anyone else, can say that she has nothing that she has not received from Him through Christ.

    As a matter of fact, this is precisely her greatest glory: that having nothing of her own, retaining nothing of a "self" that could glory in any- thing for her own sake, she placed no obstacle to the mercy of God and in no way resisted His love and His will. Hence she received more from Him than any other saint. he was able to accomplish His will perfectly in her, and His liberty was in no way hindered or turned from its purpose by the presence of an egotistical self in Mary. She was and is in the highest sense a person precisely because, being "immaculate," she was free from every taint of selfishness that might obscure God's light in her being. She was then a freedom that obeyed Him perfectly and in this obedience found the fulfill- ment of perfect love.

    The genuine significance of Catholic devotion to Mary is to be seen in the light of the Incarnation itself. The Church cannot separate the Son and the Mother. Because the Church conceived of the Incarnation as God's descent into flesh and into time, and His great gift of Himself to His creatures, she also believes that the one who was closest to Him in this great mystery was the one who participated most perfectly in the gift. When a room is heated by an open flame, surely there is nothing strange in the fact that those who stand closest to the fireplace are the ones who are warmest. And when God comes into the world through the instrumentality of one of His servants, then there is nothing surprising about the fact that His chosen instrument should have the greatest and most intimate share in the divine gift.

    Mary, who was empty of all egotism, free from all sin, was as pure as the glass of a very clean window that has no other function than to admit the light of the sun (Son). If we rejoice in that light, we implicitly praise the cleanness of the window. And of course it might be argued that in such a case we might well forget the window altogether. This is true. And yet the Son of God, in emptying Himself of His majestic power, having become a child, abandoning Himself in complete dependence to the loving care of a human Mother, in a certain sense draws our attention once again to her. The Light has wished to remind us of the window, because He is grateful to her and because He has an infinitely tender love, it is certainly a great grace and a privilege,
  13. legacyAccount Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2012
    so are you denying that Jesus is God, or that mary was the mother of Jesus?
  14. ImperialFC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    Which part is unsupported? The one about God commanding Moses to make a serpent?
    From the King James version of the bible:
    http://aol.bartleby.com/108/04/

    "6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

    7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

    8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

    9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole; Joh. 3.14 and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

    Or is God telling Moses to make the Ark of the Covenant and the angles on top of the ark biblically unsupported?

    As for Mary not being the Mother of God, that is debatable considering how you view the concept of the trinity. To me, she is the Mother of God.
  15. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Mary is not part of the trinity. The trinity is God the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. That's it!! No more, No less.
  16. Risste Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2001
    star 3
    "It says right in the ten commandments not to bow down to any graven images."

    --What is a solid definition of a graven image? I'm curious.

    --Again, there is no rule that says we HAVE to bow to the statues in a church.

    --Strange. It seems to me that it is believed by some that we Catholics damn people to Hell for not bowing to statues, and at the same time those people damn us to Hell for bowing.

    --It is a form of respect, like an acknowledgement. The bow your Bible speaks of is from a place in the world and a time when to bow was to submit, to pay homage. The modern bow has none of that meaning. The literal use of the word "bow" in the bible was meant to signify paying homage, and worship.

    "4.- Who gave the church or the pope the authority to canonize and/or be the pontifice, the only pontifice (menaing bridge) is Jesus. Remember: No one comes to the father but though me. "

    --I am in agreement, mostly. Do you know what it means to be canonized? I just wonder what a non-catholic definition of the process is.

    --I believe, as a catholic that Christ gave every person all he would ever spiritually need in the gospels. In fact, I never get caught up in what other people think is truth or falsehood or right or wrong because obviously a system that depends on the intellectual condescension of others to provide salvation for the individual is a falsely based one.

    ""The commandments of God state the minimum requirements for salvation."

    The ten commandments were never meant as a means to salvation, because in case you haven't noticed, they are impossible to keep. Their real purpose was to show us that only through God's grace can we be saved."

    --Exactly. So why are we bickering about what the EXACT commandments are instead of the different views of grace and salvation?

    --It seems rather hypocritical to condemn a man for bowing to an image if the rule that says he shouldn't bow is only meant to remind him that he can't follow that rule.


    "But so far everything I've always thought about Catholicism has been proven to be true in this thread:

    it's noting but a set of rules, not a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, the way it was inteded to be. "

    --Yes. A personal relationship with the Lord is not something one is taught, or recieves for following rules. The fact is, church is not supposed to be the only place where you go to talk to Jesus. You can talk to Christ whenever and wherever you please. Church is where you go to profess a commitment to faith. And the Catholic Church is an organisation of that principal, of weekly expression of devotion to the Lord. Being Catholic does not grant me a pass into Heaven, and being some other denomination of Christian wouldn't either.

    --I have developed my personal relationship with God completely seperate from any form of organized worship, the way it was intended to be.









  17. legacyAccount Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2012
    no one ever claimed that she was part of the trinity. you may not agree with catholicism, but please don't make things up.
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    This is a sad thread.

    "Millions of people hate the Catholic Church for what they believe it to be, but less than 100 hate it for what it really is."

    Bishop Fulton J. Sheen.



  19. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    Oh God........here we go........I'd love to partcicpate but I have to go worship Mary, bow down to a statue, have an impersonal relationship with Jesus, follow the pope mindlessly.

    Listen is the church perfect? No. Do I believe that it best represents MY views on God? Yes. Let's not try to tear down the church by promoting sterotypes. No church is perfect. The Anglican church was started because the British King wanted a divorce(and the land from the church).
  20. legacyAccount Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2012
    didn't you get the memo from the pope? we worship the saints now also. and since everything that the pope says has to be true since he's completely infaliable, you should add that to your list of things to do! :p
  21. ImperialFC Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 1
    <Mary is not part of the trinity. The trinity is God the Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit. That's it!! No more, No less.>

    I didn't say Mary was part of the trinity, I suppose I could have been more descriptive in my statement, though. I should have said how you view the relationship within the trinity between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirt (or in some Christian denominations, whether the trinity exists or not).
  22. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Well the word trinity is just a technical so as not to say Father, Son, Holy Ghost, but there are some religions which believe that Jesus is not the son of God, and that the Holy Ghost is an energy or something like that and therefore the trinity doesn't exist.

    The reason why i said that Mary was not part of the trinity is because i have met catholics who state that the trinity is composed of Mary first, God the father second, and Jesus third, like saying it's a nice happy family.
  23. LumpyMaiden Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2001
    star 3
    well those catholics know little to nothing about the catholic religion. that idea doesn't reflect catholic theology.
  24. Rogue_Solo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 3
    I have nothing really to add, except that this will be an interesting thread.
  25. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    Hey, I also met some catholics that said the world was going to end two yars ago.
    That didn't make it correct. My point is there are many misconceptions. The sad part is that many of them come from within the religion.
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