Catholicism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TrainingForUtopia, Apr 2, 2002.

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  1. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    First, I'd like to add my support to any Catholics who decide to answer questions here. I've been answering questions in the Mormonism thread, so I have some idea what you're getting into here... Good luck. Remember that you do not need to prove anything to anyone, just explain what you believe. There is no need to prove anyone right or wrong here.

    Now for my question:

    I understand that the Catholic Bible also contains the Apocrypha. How much is it studied as opposed to the "traditional" (or non-Catholic) parts of the Bible? What doctrines are taught there that are not found as clearly in other parts of the Bible?

    Kimball Kinnison
  2. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
    Ahh, the apocrypha has caused alot of controversy within our religion, mainly because of claims of forgery and because they are not regularly held to be of either prophetic or apostolic authorship. It is probably because of this that our priests normally shy away from its teachings.

    I'm not entirely sure what these books teach, but I am under the impression that indulgences were supported in these books.

    Little by little I feel they are losing their canonicity.

    Edit: I think the church calls them "deutero-canonical" books, which is the Roman Catholic term for "second canon."
    In Star Wars terms, "EU"


    Edit2: Interesting site giving Catholic reasons for inclusion of these books in the bible
  3. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    All of that is biblically unsupported. Mary WAS NOT the mother of God. God has no mother.

    Umm, wasn't Jesus a man? Didn't he DIE? So he would need a vessel to go from God to Earth, no? Enter Mary.

    I find it amazing that you paint all of Catholicism with the same brush, Pena. With a billion members, you would think there would be SOME independent thinking. Stop with the sterotyping. If I was to make some statement like, all Jewish people are cheap, or all Muslims are terrorists, there would be an uproar of unseen proportions. Like these:
    1.- Catholics, as much as they deny it, put Mary before Jesus, i know that for a fact since i used to be catholic.

    Not in my church. Is there a statue of Mary over your altar? I think not.

    2.-They Canonize whoever they wish and make a saint, i.e. Narc dealers, Assasins, etc. It Has been done here in Mexico.

    The process of becoming a saint is LONG. It will take Mother Teresa at least 50-100 years before she is cannonized.

    3.-The bow down to statues and adore images.

    Umm, the only image we bow before is the crucifix. We sometimes pray before a statue of a saint for things.

    4.-They can ban you from their church and condemn you to hell if they want (by they i mean the heads of the church)

    So you're not Catholic, yet you think the church can send people to hell. Interesting...

    5.-The vatican is the smallest country in the world and the most powerful, and from this head come all the orders that run the rest of the churches around the world.

    Yeah BIG orders, but do you think the pope has the time to go around telling my church to fix its heat?

    6.-The pope is the head of the church and not Jesus. It is a known fact that Jesus is used just as a symbol but not as the "god" of the church, because the jesuits and all the leaders revise scripture as they see fit to go with their interests.

    Yeah let me go pray to the pope.
  4. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    That list is a gross misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs, and is outright false at times.

    I wonder why people don't look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church for teachings, or another credible/official source, instead of relying on misconception or falsehood (revising scriptures, condemning to hell, bowing to statues, etc.).

  5. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    I have received complaints on this thread. Generalizing about Catholicism and what they believe in is ignorant and downright moronic. Posting lists of what they "believe" is insulting, especially since these lists have no evidence to support them other than heresay and conjecture.

    If you want to discuss Catholicism like responsible people, then I will let you. But if you continue on the path you are going, I'm locking this thread and handing down bannings for inflammatory comments.

    Be respectful, be aware of the (in)accuracy of your statements, be conscious that others do not hold the same beliefs as you and therefore, conflicts of interest will arise.

    Continue.
  6. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    "The Catholic Church is evil" - most of the people on this thread.

















    Gees, what made all of you so uptight :confused:"











    If you want to know what our religion is about, read the Catechism.

    For all of you who don't have time for that, I'll try to get back to this thread and answer questions that are meant to be questions, not accusations.
  7. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Perhaps it would be a good idea for one (or more) of the Catholic posters here to describe a few of your basic beliefs, for example about baptism, faith, repentance, and other basic doctrines. While I have talked to many Catholics (include one who lives in the bedroom next door, renting a room from my parents), I have never been given a clear description of your basic beliefs. I would really like to understand them better.

    Kimball Kinnison
  8. Cryptic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2002
    star 1
  9. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    Does the Catholic church have an official site?
  10. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I think this might be the closest thing:

    http://www.vatican.net
  11. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
  12. Kitt327 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2000
    star 4
    Perhaps it would be a good idea for one (or more) of the Catholic posters here to describe a few of your basic beliefs, for example about baptism, faith, repentance, and other basic doctrines.

    Our beliefs are basically summed up in the Nicene/Apostle's Creed. I don't have it handy, but I'm sure someone else can post it.

    I can talk a bit about what baptism is like in the Catholic church from a cultural stand point:

    Baptism is the initiation ritual of becoming a Christian, a follower of Christ. These days, it's also about welcoming a new baby into the world, and celebrating the miracle of what God has created. The baptism ritual is a time when all the extended family, and parishioners who know the family, get together to meet the baby (it's usually very soon after the birth) and congratulate the parents.

    During the ritual, the parents promise to teach the child about the teachings of Christ, and the chosen God-parents promise to support the child throughout their spiritual journey. The child has oil and water marked on their forehead. I'm not 100% sure what the oil symbolizes - I'm almost positive the water symbolizes the spiritual cleansing we receive through Christ. For the rest of their life, a Catholic will always mark holy water on their forehead upon entering a church, to remind us of our baptism into the family.
    Later, after the baby has grown into a young adult, they take the vows of belief in Christ and his teachings for themselves. This is the Catholic equivalent of the coming of age ceremony and one or more God-parents are there to support you.

    A couple of other points about Catholism: Like most religious groups, there are conservative Catholics, liberal Catholics, and everyone in between. A lot of the older catholics, who remember the church before Vatican 2 (which was a revolution the church underwent in the 60s, I believe), tend to be quite conservative.
  13. DarthLothi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    Thanks, Lord Bane. I read through this thread and I am shocked at the intolerance and downright ignorance being espoused here.

    For anyone looking for specific information on Catholic beliefs, religioustolerance.org is a good, non-biased site for information on all religions. Catholic.org is another good site.

    When you strip everything else away, though, the core of Catholic belief is this:

    We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, the Maker of Heaven of Earth and all that is seen and unseen.
    We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten from the Father. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him, all things are made.
    For us men and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered, died and was buried. On the third day, He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures. He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.
    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
  14. Frank Slade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1998
    star 2
    Anyone else notice the irony that a good part of the folks busy defending Christianity against misunderstandings in other threads are in here exhibiting the same ignorance towards Catholicism? One thing I'll say for most modern Catholics. They're happy to co-exist with their Christian bretheren, even if they don't always agree about specifics. Far too much of the opposite in the other direction for my taste.

    TFU, why did you start this thread in the first place?

  15. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    For the same reason the Mormonism thread was made.
  16. DarthLothi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    TFU, the Mormonism thread was started to answer questions that people have about the LDS faith. So far, I have yet to see you ask a question about the beliefs of Catholics. It's just been your skewed and uninformed opinion of what you think we believe.

    If you do ask a question, is it satisfy any curiosity about our faith, or are you merely looking for more ammunition to bash something that you don't agree with?
  17. TrainingForUtopia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2001
    star 4
    *Is confused.*

    I don't see any posts by me that made statements about what Catholics believe. Can you please point me towards some?
  18. Frank Slade Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 1998
    star 2
    First post:

    Personally, I think the Catholic church is tragically ironic, because Jesus was totally against putting religious traditions up in such an elevated position in the church.

    Granted, not too specific, but you seem to think you know what you're talking about. Forgive me, but it comes across like you're spoiling for a fight, not genuinely interested in what someone else might believe. I could be wrong...
  19. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Personally, I think the Catholic church is tragically ironic, because Jesus was totally against putting religious traditions up in such an elevated position in the church.

    It says right in the ten commandments not to bow down to any graven images

    Wait, I thought it was through a priest...

    But so far everything I've always thought about Catholicism has been proven to be true in this thread.
    It's noting but a set of rules, not a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, the way it was inteded to be.


    Wait, so you admit that the Catholic church does have some fallacies?


    Previous posts by you, TFU.

    In addition, you essentially lent your agreement to posts made by others against the Catholic Church and its teachings.

    Also, you made at least one similar post in another thread against the Church (Wylding's pedophelia thread): This is where the Catholic church's own twisted dogma comes in, which always has, and always will, screw everything up. (posted on 3-25).
  20. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    What is so wrong with being against the catholic church? dont we have a right to be so. I personally never said i have something against the people, i like people, i learn from people, enjoy their company, no matter the religion, but if we are going to state our opinions based on our knowledge of a subject we should have the right to do so. This is the Senate, that is why its here.

    I personally never meant to offend anyone, but just as others have criticized my belief fro whatever fallacies you see in it, I and others are entitled to do the same. Why does it always have to be about you? We can't it be about us? At least that is the complain i hear from everyone, so let's be fair and let all sides/views be expressed, without stepping on personal toes, i.e. offend anyone personally.

  21. DarthLothi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2001
    star 4
    Thanks, Frank and KW. You beat me to it.

    TFU, I don't believe that any one faith has the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Catholicism works for me. I believe in its tenets, and I find its rituals comforting. Perhaps I am reading you wrong, but like Frank, it seems that you are looking for a fight over this. I (and any other Catholic, I'm sure) will be happy to answer your questions if we feel that you are asking because of genuine interest.
  22. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    What is so wrong with being against the catholic church?

    Nothing, if you base it on fact, not misinformation and misconception.

    but if we are going to state our opinions based on our knowledge of a subject

    I kindly suggest improving your knowledge of the subject.

    Why does it always have to be about you? We can't it be about us?

    I don't know. Maybe the outright ignorance and falsehoods regarding Catholic beliefs has something to do with it.

    At least that is the complain i hear from everyone, so let's be fair and let all sides/views be expressed, without stepping on personal toes, i.e. offend anyone personally.


    That doesn't justify ignorance. A few people are coming across as tremendously ignorant in this thread, and are destroying their credibility. I'm sure this isn't the intent, but it is how it's coming across.



  23. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    Here we go again.

    First off i am expressing my view of the catholic church based on the fact that i WAS catholic, i am so against it for personal and biblical reasons. Therefore misinformation and knowledge dont apply in my case, even though you might not agree with me.

    And like i stated before, even if people are misinformed they have a right to lash out at it for whatever reasons they might have, and most of them have pretty good reasons for their disagreement with the church.

    Lastly just as you have been misinformed about christianity or protestantism and have lashed out at us for our stance we have a right to do so against catholics, like i said it's being fair, if you can lash out so can we. Now as far as i remember christianity/protestantism bashing started before catholicism bashing, so why do we have to pay for what you started, hard feelings were created etc.

    If this is an information thread, fine post information, but since it is part of the senate everyone has a right to disagree and post their opinions, whether you like it or not, otherwise we could not post responses to the statements made.
  24. R2D2-PENA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    "That doesn't justify ignorance. A few people are coming across as tremendously ignorant in this thread, and are destroying their credibility. I'm sure this isn't the intent, but it is how it's coming across. "

    There you go, getting personal. You can lash out and we can't. Now who is destroying credibility?
  25. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    First off i am expressing my view of the catholic church based on the fact that i WAS catholic

    Your understanding of Catholic teaching does not reflect this.

    Therefore misinformation and knowledge dont apply in my case, even though you might not agree with me.

    Right. 2+2 doesn't equal 4 if you used to be a mathmatician If you have given misinformation about our beliefs (which you have), it remains misinformation.

    Lastly just as you have been misinformed about christianity or protestantism and have lashed out at us for our stance we have a right to do so against catholics, like i said it's being fair, if you can lash out so can we

    What makes you say that I or others have been misinformed about Christianity and protestanism? I don't believe anyone has expressed any viewpoints toward such, other than the Catholic faith itself. Why lash out at all? We are simply doing our best to express our true beliefs, and are not the ones on the attack.

    If this is an information thread, fine post information, but since it is part of the senate everyone has a right to disagree and post their opinions, whether you like it or not, otherwise we could not post responses to the statements made.

    There is a difference between true fact and information and opinion. What Catholics believe is in is fact and information, not opinion and is not disagreeable, so far as official Catholic teaching goes. I suggest you open a Catechism sometime, or another credible Catholic source. The things you have said we believe in are nearly without fail not what those of us who are Catholic beieve in.

    Essentially, you're criticizing a set of beliefs that no one really believes in, be they Catholic or not.

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