Census Census & Games 2010 Pokemon Draft (your champion: MandaloreYak!)

Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by The Loyal Imperial, Nov 7, 2010.

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  1. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    He could also curse from the beginning, take the one attack, and since he is faster, go straight into DB. It would take more turns for the sandstorm to kill Gengar than the curse to kill ttar, and if it gets close, he could always pop off a focus blast at the last second. Really bad draw for Ttar, he wins some, just not 50%.

    Gengar doing Curse right off the bat is only worse than him doing DB first! Why would you ever lower your HP against something like Tyranitar? Then to lower your HP AND take a free hit? Let him take that one attack, whatever it is it will put him below 50% then Curse eats the rest, what a good move. Do Curse first and Tyranitar can still knock him out with a single Rock Slide/ Auto-Damage Sandstorm or Dark Pulse outright, which Blue and he would do because they are both ranged attacks and both of his type. Either is enough to knock out Gengar. The three step (summoned Sandstorm, move, Sandstorm auto damage) scenario of Rock Slide/Dark Pulse then Sandstorm is much more likely then Gengar's Curse, living through any one of Tyranitar's attack, DB, Curse hitting again, Focus Blast,... How ever you want to slice it DB or not I don't see how Gengar get's the win.

    I can't figure out statements like how Gengar has more versatility to win here. He has a narrow window to do it, Curse is an awful option that is more likely Tyranitar would take it if Gengar's uses that. And without it Gengar has little chance to lower Tyranitar's HP that much before he is KOed himself. DB first leaves him open to attack and two moves would leave him KOed with Sandstorm. The only thing that will keep him in this match is DB but that is circumvented by Sandstorm. The timing is just better for Sandstorm to work around it. Curse is a turn base move that will somehow hit two times and a Focus Blast (which is what is needed to KO here) before One of Tyranitar's moves and Sandtorm that is also turn based? If anything they would hit with the same frequency. So how's that work? Ok if you want to argue that it is not going to work the way I said, then fine call it a draw at the least but even that is cheap. Especially since Yak has said he doesn't like or use DB so it should be removed from the equation.
  2. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    Just because Yak doesn't like it, doesn't mean Sabrina doesn't like it...

    And that's just one option that you clearly said is close enough for a draw, which doesn't even consider him popping out of the DB with a sucker punch focus blast which no one would be prepared for since, Gengar normally doesn't have it, and Sabrina can communicate with him psychically.

    Then on top of that, the confusion, Ttar doing self damage half the time, and half the time hitting Gengar, who has with a much greater speed to dodge, and focus blast being thrown around recklessly is very hard to get past.
  3. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Just want to make sure we're on the same page, here: how much damage are we talking about Sandstorm doing in those scenarios? According to the source I'm using, it's...not really significant enough to make a heavy impact in comparison to his other moves. About twenty damage a turn. If that's what you're referring to, no problem, just checking.
  4. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    No that's exactly what we're talking about, something doing 1/16th of Gengar's HP, has to be the thing that kills him when DB is in play. As I was saying that's ridiculously hard to time, and more than likely, Gengar puts on DB, runs up focus blast to end the fight. Or, curse, then DB, and watch the curse kill him, knowing that sandstorm can't beat the curse to time to death... and if it gets close, once again, Focus Blast to the face... to the face

    [image=http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2009/04/02/hangover-trailer-2.jpg]

    I'm sorry, but with Gengar's speed, Ttar has to use a range move, that's not normal, and on a very fast moving target, and it has to hit before DB is used... I don't see it happening. Not up in here!:

    [image=http://img.youtube.com/vi/oTEKGCFwGEs/0.jpg]

    Oh and the only range attack he has that can hit gengar is dark pulse....
  5. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Rock Slide is actually a ranged attack, too, but one that uses Attack instead of Special Attack.

  6. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah TLI that is what I was referring, Sandstorm does 20 damage every few seconds or even just after once a move is enough if you check the damage output of one of Tyranitar's moves. Since you are here though I wanted to ask you something, I think it was Trimaj that originally brought it up about abilities. I know someone had said about Final Evolution Pokemon getting all the moves backtracked through their evolution chain but do they also get abilities? Tyranitar's pre-evolved forms have Shed Skin, Sand Veil and Guts all giving good bonuses here clearing status issues, boosting evasion and boosting attack. Just thought I'd ask.

    TLI I know you said you wanted it less about number games, as do I, but it is all Kalar argues with so I have to fight fire with fire. If you check these scenarios Kalar keeps laying out, and are fair about it, Gengar would run out of HP before Tyranitar. If you wanna ride the old one trick 'HIS SPEED!' pony then I counter with Scary Face, that more than levels this playing field. No stupid Trick Room to be a gimmick and let him 'attack first' (whateverthehell that means in a non-turnbased situation?). But just like with Sandstorm boosting Tyranitar's defense I'm guessing it was forgotten as well. I don't think Gengar is so fast Tyranitar can't look at him and scare his pants AND speed off. Even if the speed is so important it doesn't make sense as to how moves like Eruption that act like volcanoes would allow for the Pokemon to dodge it and not get hit at all. Rock Slide, it's a mini avalanche.

    The reason it is important to look past the numbers are the moves that don't do damage that are important. Kalar you are quick to see Confuse Ray because it helps Gengar.

    Oh and is Dark Pulse the only ranged attack? Rock Slide's description... Large boulders are hurled at the foe to inflict damage. It may also make the target flinch. Swing and a miss there pumpkin. Unless you are really thinking for something to be thrown it needs to be in melee range?
  7. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    No, they don't get the abilities from their previous evolutions, just all the (non-hidden) abilities of their present forms.
  8. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    First off, if we're being realistic, Gengar should be able to phase through boulders, since he can phase through walls. But I won't go there. I think it is easy enough for him to dodge a boulder when running away. Also, scary face, if he is just running and dodging, I don't see him look Ttar in the face. Sabrina and him are psychically linked, so he see the boulders coming with his backed turned.

    Pre-evolution abilities... come on man.

    But still beyond that, sandstorm hitting every few seconds, that's even more ridiculous. Since it hits every turn, then curse should also go off every turn, meaning he would be dead in 4x a few seconds, if sandstorm hits that fast.

    Finally, the whole point of the DB argument is after curse, he turns on DB. If Ttar does any damage that kills him from a move, he loses, that's the main point that you haven't addressed. With curse doing 4 times the damage of sandstorm, I don't even see how you compare the two. Even at half life it takes sandstorm 8 turns, and curse only 4... if Ttar uses a big attack, and kills Gengar, DB wins it. The only chance is for Ttar to do attacks that won't kill him, but widdle down his health. And can Blue, really think of a way to widdle down his health, and let sandstorm kill him, in less than 4 turns, which is all it takes for curse to win. Then on top of all that, Gengar can use confuse ray while Destiny Bonded, since confuse ray does no damage.

    And finally, so Gengar curses, and runs, and Ttar uses Scary face to slow him down and it always hits. That's fine. Destiny Bond is still his next move, and ttar has to find a way to kill him in 3 moves, but without letting his attack kill him, but letting sandstorm kill him. And Then, focus blast still does over half Ttar's life in damage, so on the 3rd turn, if Ttar isn't dead, and Gengar is close to dieing, he can focus blast, and wipe him out.

    This isn't an elaborate combination, it's the fact that curse/DB/much higher speed/focus blast, all contribute to a huge advantage to Gengar. Then on top of all that, Gengar can use confuse ray while Destiny Bond is in play. Simple combo if you want one, curse, DB, confuse ray, watch Ttar die.

    or curse, DB, confuse ray, Focus blast

    or Confuse ray, focus blast, focus blast, focus blast... til Ttar is dead.

    Sure, focus blast misses 30% of the time. Well after confuse ray, Ttar only hits 50% of the time... I see the advantage Gengar.

    And why bring up trick room or anything else from the past. This argument isn't about numbers, it's about realistic facts. Gengar is just really fast and sneaky (all pokedex references to Gengar):

    It is said to emerge from darkness to steal the lives of those who become lost in mountains.

    To steal the life of its target, it slips into the prey's shadow and silently waits for an opportunity.

    It hides in shadows. It is said that if Gengar is hiding, it cools the area by nearly 10 degrees F.

    Lurking in the shadowy corners of rooms, it awaits chances to steal its prey's life force.

    The leer that floats in darkness belongs to a Gengar delighting in casting curses on people.

    To steal the life of its target, it slips into the prey's shadow and silently waits for an opportunity.


    The problem with Gengar is finding him. He can curse from a long distance, and hide very well. Destiny Bond, you don't see it coming if you don't see him. The only way to find him is when he confuse rays or focus blast, and by then it's too late.
  9. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Me, I'm more interested in who wins without involving Destiny Bond.
  10. Hokage_Kalar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2009
    star 4
    You can't handicap a trump card like Destiny Bond. It will be outlawed next draft, but since it's still here, it makes this a much easier match for Gengar. In fact, if you have to not think about it to make it close, it should be obvious who wins with it in...
  11. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    I'm not talking about handicapping, I'm talking academic curiosity. Destiny Bond, as it seems to be being interpreted here (unless I'm missing something), would be an auto-win card under pretty much any circumstances imaginable (though I don't share that interpretation, personally). With complete realism, it'd be virtually impossible for any trainer to time it perfectly, since it's not like Pokemon have little floating health bars or counters over their heads for them to keep track of exactly how low on health they are or how much damage they're doing. Turns have no meaning to them. It'd be a simple question of luck. And maybe guessing. Lucky guessing.
  12. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Above QFT


    Thank you TLI, just thought I'd ask. Lot's of things to put down in the next discussion thread for sure, I've been taking notes.

    I don't really feel the need to discuss this any more. Every point has been made and avenue exhausted unless something new comes to light TLI and Trimaj have fun!
  13. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    No problem. And if you've been taking notes, you must have more pages than the Encyclopedia Britannica by now...
  14. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    Wow. All this discussion. I guess that's good...
  15. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
  16. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah like how we use game mechanics for some things when it suits us but ignore it in others? I think it should be more standardized, this 'turn' idea is awful when it is mixed together with 'reality', they both can't coexist. All this...it should be discussed when this is all over not now but soon (hopefully uggh).
  17. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Unrestricted reality is nearly as troublesome. No cooldown time...move spam! Half-second long matches. Unlimited speedblitzes. Tyranitar actually being invincible. It'd be crazy.
  18. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    No there is realism involved. This goes into the whole point of me saying before the draft, how does something like Wailord not just roll over on Pikachu and kill it. I also don't see unlimited move spams or single second matches from any of them. Not even taking into consideration the more ludicrous of Pokedex entries.

    Realism like realistically a move like Hyper Beam would require the Pokemon using it to stop, charge up the beam and to aim it then fire it off. hit or not, they'd then be winded after wards and unable to move as quickly or dodge as effectively. That is where the anime ideas I like come into play, they aren't just constantly running around like 7 year olds playing tag. It is a battle.

    Like I said discussion later. Judgments should be your only concern, end this madness.
  19. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    Will have a judgment up in not too long: already have the next matches prepared, just finishing cleaning up the no-Destiny Bond match discussion version. Which is most of it. Well, 99%, really.
  20. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    The madness, it is at an end.

    Blue and Tyranitar (prepared with TM40 Aerial Ace)
    vs.
    Sabrina and Gengar (prepared with TM52 Focus Blast, TM24 Thunderbolt, and TM36 Sludge Bomb)

    Had an interesting thought about Gengar the other day. He's immune to Normal, Fighting, and Ground attacks. Theoretically, if you tried to hit one, you'd probably go right through it. Basically, the only attacks that scratch it are elementally-charged, with Normal and Fighting having no real elements attached to them and Ground being about as basic as you can get. So, he might be able to phase through your fist or the wall, but the elemental...well, element is why other attacks still hit him. Flying (Air), Rock (Earth), Steel (Metal), Fire (Fire), and Water (Water) all being traditional elements, with Electric and Ice being not uncommon additions, and Dragons...are bigger and nastier than ghosts.

    Anyways, the match, the match, yes, yes. A curious setup, we're looking at. Tyranitar is resistant to Dark and Ghost attacks, which is basically Gengar's entire standard arsenal (will discuss TMs later), and has Sandstorm boosting up his scary scaly shield power makes him an even tougher monster to bring down. Gengar, on the other hand, is immune to Normal and Ground moves, which together make up a fair number of Tyranitar's moves, too. So they're both in the same situation, pretty much. That leaves the two of them with a fairly small pool of effective moves to work with.

    Let's start with Tyranitar. Dark Pulse comes to mind first: that's heavy damage right there we're talking about. Aerial Ace, not so good, under a hundred damage. Don't really know why he can learn it (confounding the foe with speed, Tyranitar?), but, eh, whatever. Rock Slide, pretty good damage, about half Gengar's health. Much more if he uses Screech, too. Crunch, that's Gengar's entire health bar gone with one hit. And even a little Bite hits harder than Dark Pulse. Payback, that's another crushing blow if he uses it as a counterattack. Stone Edge hits hard, but not quite as much as the Dark-type attacks.

    Now, Gengar's turn. Dark Pulse, not very helpful. Shadow Ball, also not very helpful. Night Shade, goodnight Tyranitar in five hits. Not bad, but not stellar. Match would probably be over before then. Thunderbolt, still too low for lasting impact. Curse...reducing your health is a bad idea when your opponent can take out the other half of your health at range and you have no way to get it back. That's serious gambling. Sludge Bomb, doesn't do much in the way of damage. Focus Blast, now that's the big one. Somewhere along the line, Tyranitar ended up with a x4 weakness to Fighting-type attacks. Not really sure who got the idea that punching a T-Rex in the nose should be super-effective (or even remotely a good idea), but hey, alright, I can work with that.

    [image=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OjwUPgstBQQ/RZpFVhJ18rI/AAAAAAAAAAM/IJhh6YNAjh8/s400/GiantSquids2web.jpg]

    So, that leaves us in an interesting position. Without Sandstorm, Focus Blast is definitely devastating. With it, we're still looking at Tyranitar having about eighty health left, though it comes with the disadvantage of being somewhat lacking in the accuracy department, and it still has to punch its way through any boulders Tyranitar decides to whip out as defensive measure. That doesn't leave a lot of room for error on Tyranitar's part. Of course, with Payback and Crunch and Dark Pulse, Gengar doesn't have much room to slip up, either. If he's hoping to outlast Tyranitar and drag this match out a bit, Confuse Ray is almost certainly a necessity. And speaking of outlasting, that brings me to another issue I haven't covered yet.

    Speed. Gengar's got about a 110-point speed advantage over Tyranitar. And also weighs about 350 pounds less. Tyranitar is fully capable of ending this in a single blow if he's close enough to do so, but he has to get into that range and dig his tiny little claws or his not-so-tiny fangs into Ge
  21. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    So just to get things straight this was ruled a victory because of Destiny Bond, correct? And Gengar technically wins because the game mechanic causing the Pokemon cursed with Destiny Bond Faints first, correct? If so this is the type of crap I am talking about, we use the game mechanic here but not in 80% of other situations it is applicable. If we used draft rules or even logic the best this could come out to is a draw because both Faint. Meh whatever, it will be fixed next draft, gone like the rest of the cheapness.

    And as for the current match I'll just concede it because I can see it now and don't feel like dealing with it. SIGNAL BEAM SIGNAL BEAM SIGNAL BEAM X2 WEAKNESS LOLZBBQROFLCOPTER... yeah concede.
  22. The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2007
    star 6
    No happier with it than you are: it's not even my interpretation of the move (which I would be more than happy to detail if there weren't more pressing matters to debate).
  23. The_Chim Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 6
    I would be more than interested in hearing that description. You can always PM it to me, or at least save it for the discussion after the draft.

    Feel free to post matches TLI, as with tradition Yak and I exchanged our numbers at the beginning of the round.
  24. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    yea, i was actually gonna go t-tar because of destiny bond and sandstorm actually. it's not like t-tar doesn't have moves that can nickle and dime this down to one sandstorm away, you know? not that it really matters. yay for just getting out of school and missing the madness.
  25. MandaloreYak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 5
    A couple things for next draft, but I'm late for Bible study as it is... Later
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