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JCC Cetaceans to get the same rights as Humans?....

Discussion in 'Community' started by SithLordDarthRichie, Feb 21, 2012.

  1. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Since a human qualifies as a person and enslaving people is wrong, then no you can't. Most children have little to no understanding of right or wrong until they are taught it, that doesn't mean they are exempt from rights. They are still capable of making moral decisions even if they don't understand the concept.


    Exactly right. Eating animals is not wrong, it's the natural way of things. But we as higher beings can kill them without needless suffering and ensure they live as free a life as possible before they die. And if an animal is captive for the purposes of harvesting its resources like eggs, it doesn't have to be stuck in a pen where it barely has the ablity to turn around. Free ranging chickens are far happier than battery farmed ones.
    A lobster does not have to be boiled alive in order to be eaten, they can be killed humanely.

    Any animal even a captive ones should live as wild a life as it can. My cat goes out and roams freely and often catches or kills things it finds as it would in the wild. Countires which advocate the de-clawing of pets are hindering the ability of the animal to live a normal life. My cat can't climb trees or fences or go hunting or scratch itself if it has no claws, which is why de-clawing it is wrong.
     
  2. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2008

    Did not know that. Thanks.
     
  3. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    Right, but only if they mistreat the food animals in certain ways which go significantly beyond the socially-accepted cruelties of the industry. If someone stuffed a bunch of dogs into pens that were hardly bigger than their bodies, they would get charged for it. But for some reason, if they do that with egg-laying hens, it's OK.

    And how about the fact that lab rodents aren't even covered by the Animal Welfare Act? I think that's a pretty explicit acknowledgment that laws protecting animals aren't meant to be morally consistent, just expedient.

    I'd say declawing is wrong because it's gratuitous mutilation of a cat for a human's convenience. Declawing is removal of the tips of the toes, not just the claws, and that can result in lasting pain and disability for the cat. Any person who cares more about not getting scratch marks on their couch than they do about the well-being of their pet is probably someone who shouldn't have a pet. //rant
     
  4. Souderwan

    Souderwan Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Moral consistency is not exactly something we humans actually care about. If we were morally consistent, the people advocating for treating animals like humans would behave in a morally consistent way. We don't work that way. We say whatever we need to in order to convince ourselves that we're behaving in a way we can respect.
     
  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    That seems an overly cynical view. Just because we don't in fact behave in ways that are morally consistent does not mean that moral consistency isn't worth aspiring to.
     
  6. Souderwan

    Souderwan Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Where did I said we shouldn't aspire toward it?
     
  7. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Your cat should stay inside and stop killing native wildlife, anyway. I hope at least it's been desexed.
     
  8. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Yes it is, kittens are cute but its a hassle if you end up with lots all the time.
    Hunting is a natural behaviour, natural population control has been around since life began. Besides, had we not pretty much wiped out the Wild Cat that would be here doing the same thing semi-wild cats are doing.

    We could do with more population controls of species in this country, but because we wiped out most of the predators we have ruined the natural balance.
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Holy **** I don't know where to begin. Yikes.
     
  10. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Malleus Maleficarum star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I wish more people were as honest about the potential benefits of such a manner of human population control. 1 out of every 3 humans does nothing but burden the rest of the populace, anyway. Myself, included. Hunting humans/Most Dangerous Game has great potential to benefit society as a whole. Manifest Destiny. We may be more evolved than other species, but we're still animals on a food chain. It would be nice for the 'enlightened' amongst us who cannot even tolerate a discussion like this, let alone endorse the subject matter, to maintain some level of consistency. We're slightly evolved animals in a predatory world. And, there are far too many of us. Anyone who wants me to go first, I'm all for it. Come and get me.
     
    Sarge likes this.
  11. Mortimer_Snerd

    Mortimer_Snerd Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    I would hang out with you on the island. Could we at least build deadfalls and booby traps for our pursuers?



     
  12. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    It is our morality and reason that prevents us from resorting to that kind of genocide (unless you're insane like some people throughout history have been). We fought wars to prevent such things, we will never resort to it now and neither should we. Nature will engage its natural methods of population reduction, we will resist as we always have but then those attempts will only become larger and more violent until significant reduction or extinction is reached.


    Violence towards your own kind seems to be a curse of higher intellignce, not just restricted to humans. Dolphins are known to fight each other and also engage in acts of violence against other species for reasons unknown, Bonobos are known to form gangs and go in search of other Bonobo groups just to fight them (not unlike gang behaviour in our own society). Once you realise you have the means to take something and can develop tools to help you do it, the potential for bad deeds arises.
    But knowing the difference between a bad act and a good act are important, and that is hard to test for in other animals. Such behaviour is important in determining rights.
     
  13. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Yes, Richie's pet cat assuredly hunts precisely the same species in precisely the same portions as native large feline predators. It's not like they evolved into separate species over hundreds of thousands of years! It's a perfect swap.

    It's just like how the cane toad is a perfect substitute for autochthonous Australian amphibians. Perfectly preserving the native ecology, they have destroyed 90% of the native monitor lizard population.

    . . .
     
  14. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    You can't compare an introduced non-native species put into a habitat unlike its own to domestic household pets man has had for centuries. The Cane Toad's high number of offspring was overlooked as was the fact it was unlikely to prey on the intended target due to lack of daytime shelter from predators (never mind the fact its skin is toxic). You can't control the productivity of a wild species as you can with a pet, and introducing something much larger than similar species from a different kind of habitat is asking for trouble. Most people take natural management too far and forget to factor in so many of the variables involved in the introduction of a foreign species. Even bringing in the Grey Squirrel from America had an unforseen consequences for our native Red Squirrel.


    Pets are managed and owned by humans, various measures can be put in place if owners don't want them catching things like having collar bells (not that they work well) or being kept inside. Plus you can control their population numbers far more easily than you could manage a wild species. The evidence to support pets having a serious detremental impact on any native species numbers is patchy (unless they live on an island like Mauritius and target a species like the Dodo). Cats mainly kill mice, there are millions of mice and they have a very high birth rate so as to offset losses. That is not a problem, neither is catching bugs. Birds maybe but I've owned many cats most of my life and only one ever caught a bird and that was dead already. Birds are smart enough to know better, so it's not a big problem. Certainly nothing that a large number of native wild cats wouldn't have contributed.

    Natural management is good, introducing a species to an area it would otherwise never have been able to get to is not natural management.
     
  15. KissMeImARebel

    KissMeImARebel Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Sad news:

    Tilikum, the captive orca featured in Blackfish, is very sick and probably going to die soon. He has developed a lung infection which has been resistant to treatment and which has been worsening.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-killer-whale-orca-death-seaworld-sick-dying/
    http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...alth-of-tilikum-the-killer-whale-is-declining

    My understanding is that Tilikum would never be a suitable candidate for release into the wild due to a serious issue with his teeth, but there are better options for him than remaining in a cramped pool.