CGI added to Raiders TV showings

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by ATMachine, May 17, 2008.

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  1. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    When Spielberg makes a film--he's the boss. Even when George Lucas is the producer.
  2. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Why care? So what if your kids won't see what you've seen. If George really wanted to piss people off he'd remake the originals altogether. So what if a scene here and there is redone? If you don't like it, don't buy it. There are plenty of versions out there for your choosing. The definitive version is what you want it to be.

    And whether you like it or not, like cell phones and the internet, CGI is here to stay people. And the older you get the more there will be. Personally, I'm okay with it. If it's done right, I'd prefer a CGI alien to that of someone who looks like he belongs at a halloween party, anyday!
  3. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    All of this borders on absurdity and insanity. A painter must eventually put the brush down. These films are finished, they have been released, attracted fan following, and become part of pop culture and Hollywood legend. It is time to leave this films alone and preserve them.

    Tinkering with E.T., Star Wars, and Indiana Jones is absurd. They may not have computer effects, but they have their own charm from the times in which they were created. It would be ridiculous to go back and insert a digital shark into Jaws. It is time that Steven and George (they are both great offenders) just give it up.


    -Seldon
  4. VladTheImpaler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    It's funny--a short while back I was flipping through "From Star Wars To Indiana Jones: The Best Of The Lucasfilm Archives", an old coffee table book I bought way back when. It has a short blurb about this exact shot in the truck chase sequence:

    "Longtime ILMer John Ellis points to the shot as a signature example of Lucas's understanding of his audience, explaining that when Lucas viewed the shot in the dailies he told his team to print it, despite a chorus of concerns that there was still work to be done--color timings, additional painting details, some work on the matte lines. But Lucas instinctively knew the shot couldn't be improved upon and that audiences would cheer it in the theaters."

    Fascinating, no? I wonder why Lucas would change his mind now? Or does this mean that it was Spielberg's idea?

    I don't mind special effects tweeks here and there, but I don't know...stuff like this just seems pointless to me. The falling truck shot looks dated, but so does a lot of other stuff. If you replace every special effect in the movie with modern-day CGI, it just won't be the same movie anymore. Raiders is a classic for a reason...I wish they'd leave it alone.

    That said, so far it's been a TV-only change, and hasn't reflected on any of the DVDs. I wonder if Lucas put the new shot in just for kicks, and then Spielberg vetoed it--so the original stayed on the DVDs, but by some fluke mistake the new shot got submitted with the TV edit? Just throwing theories around...
  5. zombie Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 1999
    star 4
    I want to see the Jaws Special Edition with the CG shark.

    Spielberg: When I first tried to make Jaws in 1975 we built a great big mechanical shark but due to the limitations of technology we could never make it work, so I had to shoot around the shark and use point-of-view angles. Now, thanks to digital technology I can finally realise the vision that the film was supposed to have. Now you can actually see the shark and have big wide shots of it swimming around which we never could have done back then and we can really expand the vision closer to the way it was originally intended. I also never was comfortable with the scene where the little boy gets eaten by the shark, so now the boy bites first and the shark bites back in self defense. I really wanted to shoot it that way but I was never able to.
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I just don't see why it would be anyone but the artist's business as to when they should put the brush down.
  7. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 9
    Well, it is a bit sad that the art of the matte painters and pioneering SFX team at LucasArts is being consigned to the rubbish bin. Same as Sebastian Shaw's removal from the final scene of Jedi.

    It's losing history. Sort of ironic in a film about an archaeologist.
  8. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    Hilarious Spielberg satire at its finest.
    The brilliance of Jaws was of course that the audience couldn't see the shark. That was how all the suspense and tension was built in the film and amplified by Williams' brilliant score. That was the thematic magic of the work. Nowadays it would have been wasted and boring, yet with the technological limitation it yielded Steven one of his finest works because he was forced to actually be creative with it. I feel as though such a film would never be taken in that direction today. The filmmaker would be obsessed with showing off their feat in designing a nasty looking shark. The story would be lost in the effects.

    The sad state of movies now.

    -Seldon
  9. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5


    There's a wonderful set of documentaries on the DVD Special Edition of the Wizard of Oz and this is brought up...true, they didn't have digital technology for CGI and all that back in 1938, but they worked with what they had...and it's enchanted kids for many decades, as old school as it is. One filmmaker interviewed comments "I guarantee you if they made that film today, they'd overdo it and ruin it." And I agree.

    I don't mind changes to ROTLA, as long as it's minimal and to enhance it, not change it.
  10. malducin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 4
    Well what's more ironic isthat Lucas and Spielberg signed a petition against the colorization of old black and white films. Sort of a double standard for the preservation of films as they were released.

    BTW LucasArts is the game company, you're referring to ILM. And the art is not lost, most of those pioneering individuals still work in the industry, many still at ILM and Kerner Optical. It's just that the tools are much better now.
  11. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    I always thought that shot looked a little faulty.
    Really don't mind if it got fixed.
  12. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    The supporters of this change, this digital tweaking, have expressed that we -- its detractors -- shoud not question it; that it's no big deal; that the filmmakers should be allowed to tinker with their own movies all they like, since they created and own the film in question.

    And that's fine: you guys have a right to see things that way. But our feelings are also valid. We did not purposefully or spitefully invent our own perceptions. Trying to talk us out of our own emotional responses is pointless. The fact is that this changes the look and feel of a beloved classic film that most of us have seen so many times its images and sounds are ingrained in our psyches for all time. We who oppose this change want to return to that experience time and again to relive those same feelings, to see those same images and hear those same sounds; knowing that they're there waiting for us, in exactly the way we remember them, holds a kind of promise. That promise is undermined and ultimately shattered with every change, almost thirty years after the fact, the filmmakers decide to effect on the movie.

    A Special Edition is a special edition: it is expected that some scenes will be changed, enhanced, added to, tweaked, etc. But this is not a special edition, and, so far as any of us know, the change was not announced by LFL or Paramount, nor spoken of aforetime by any trade publication, but rather sneaked under the radar and broadcast without comment. This constitutes something of a breach of trust with the fanbase, IMO. I don't mean to make waves or to cast accusations around without basis, but this is how I feel about the matter and it is my right to express it.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It's not losing history, it's just not dwelling on it is all.

    The petition Lucas and Spielberg signed was done to keep third parties from colorizing -other- people's movies. They would have no problem if the original creators wanted to go back and colorize their own film.

    I don't begrudge people their honest feelings about this. I just think it's funny how the Lucasfilm fanbase finds out about this stuff.

    I mean most of us would see this particular change and not even notice it, because it still hits the same beats as before, and the new matte painting is convincing. One of us picks up on it and runs to the internet to make sure everyone else notices it too, and then suddenly you have all these people who are upset by it mostly on principal.

    For me personally, if I enjoy a movie then I feel like I'm ahead of the game. I am glad to have enjoyed it. But it seems like there are some who go out of their way to make sure they aren't enjoying something they -shouldn't-, then do everything in their power to make sure others aren't enjoying it simply because they didn't notice it.

    It gets dressed up in the guise of wanting to preserve the high standard of the movie they love, but in the end it just pokes holes in the fanbase's ability to suspend their disbelief.
  14. qui-gon-kim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    Except that it is Lucas and Speilberg making changes TO THEIR OWN FILMS (which is also what James Cameron, Ridley Scott and Peter Jackson do as well). Lucas and Speilberg were lobbying against changes not made by the ORIGINAL FILMMAKERS, so it's not a double standard.

    Also, I love how everyone in this thread assumes that it was Lucas who made the change to Raiders, while assuming Spielberg had nothing to do with it.
  15. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    Also, I love how everyone in this thread assumes that it was Lucas who made the change to Raiders, while assuming Spielberg had nothing to do with it.

    "Everyone in this thread" has done no such thing. I oppose the change, but have not said a single word specifying Lucas, Spielberg, Kennedy or anyone else by name. The directors you've named have made additions/changes to their films in editions that are specified as "special" or "extended" in some way. There has been no such specification here, and no announcement by the producers or distributors of the film. I strongly oppose this, regardless of who ius responsible.
  16. malducin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2001
    star 4
    I should have added. I don't mind the changes as long as the originals are also available. Just don't make excuses about the changes because you're padering to certain groups. Certainly you don't need CG fixes to change a prop on set from shotguns to walkie talkies, or direct an actor to snap his neck and then shoot second in self defense ;-). Oh and that bit about losing those precise negatves was lame, especially after miraculusly appearing a few years later for a new DVD release. It's a bit of rewritng history sorta.

    You could also argue that many of those old films were that way because color filmwas too expensive, but they might have been shot in color if they could. By that measure it would be fine to colorize them as it was the original intent of the creators.

    As long as Ican get the original of any film be it the film that opened last week or the classics from long ago, I don't mind mch if they colorize them, add new CG, retouch them, etc.
  17. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I'm for special effects changes when it cleans up an already special effects based movie in order to make it more pallable to a new audience. Star Wars fits the bill. The cleaned up effects enhance the movies because frankly, the originals are distracting because our eyes are used to something better. However, when the effects start modifying the content of the movies and changing the feel, I have an issue. In the case of the new CGI, while that one effect might not have a significatn impact, if more are done and Indy becomes smoother and slicker, it looses content and it changes the feel of the movie.
  18. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    So I just watched this shot on DVD, and it looks fine. There are plenty of shots in the Indy movies that I think look pretty bad, but this is not one of them.
  19. CuppaJoe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 4
    Unnecessary, but not distracting, thankfully. I wouldn't have noticed had it not been pointed out.
  20. Kapoof Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2008
    Whaaaaat the heck? Well, i really didn't expect to see that for some reason. Not sure what i think of it.

    On one hand, the movies are classics and probably don't need to be messed with.

    On the other hand, they say that a film is never "done"... you just run out of time. And as these guys get older, there's probably things that always bothered them about their movies. I imagine they'd like to leave a film that they feel is more finished before their time truly does run out.

    I don't mind a shot like this. I do sort of wonder what the special effects folks who worked on the original shot think of having the old one replaced. But really, i don't mind a shot like this. If it's subtle and looks good, it's cool. Helps the movie keep up with the times. Because no matter how good an old movie is, there comes a point where it's just pretty damn old and it really loses something. I'd hate for Raiders to become something like an old Robin Hood movie from the 30's. I don't know anyone who's interested in watching those movies these days. They're just too old and silly. Even classics become forgotten. Maybe 20, 30 more years and that'd be Raiders or the OT. So, maybe it's good that they're trying to keep some of these films up to date.

    Btw, a few mine cart chase shots could be replaced. You can totally tell they're dummies sometimes, lol.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Just for the record, that bit about losing the original negatives wasn't a fabrication. In the end what appeared on DVD was a rip from a past laserdisc release, not from a negative.

    This particular change in Raiders seems to have been made after the DVDs released so far, so we have nothing to worry about when it comes to future revised releases.
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