Change in plan? Duel of the Fates comment.

I was wondering if anyone else noticed this. I call it the Leaping Fallacy. There are several strong clues that more minutes were added to the Duel of the Fates lightsaber clash during production.

It occurs at the point when Obi-Wan is knocked down to the level below Qui Gon & Maul. And, Qui Gon knocks Darth Maul to another platform. When Qui Gon leaps down, I think he was meant to have suffered a shot right then & there, as he was completely open, rather than for the fight to drag out into the laser chamber.

Clues:
1) The Music comes to an end there. There is a point where the music almost stops and then there is a forced repeat of the chorus of voices. This might have been where Williams was planning his Stinger chords for Qui Gon's death.

2) The other scenes end shortly after this point. When I first saw the movie, it seemed "out of place" to have everyone outside cheering while the two Jedi are still having at it inside. It's like "Yeah, space ship exploded! Oh wait, there is still more to be done. I forgot." Perhaps GL found this to be the most important of the three scenes and used the extension to rearrange the order.

3) Everyone is in the exact same position as they are in the laser grid room. Obi Wan separated by a great distance. Qui Gon open to attack. If you look at the previous platform leap made by Obi Wan & Qui Gon, the only reason Maul doesn't hit one of the leaping Jedi is because he doesn't know which one to hit first. It's clear in this moment that he could have ridden himself of an opponent.

Had all this happened, I think the battle would have been much tighter. As it turned out, I found Qui Gon's death completely unconvincing.

Caveat: As the fight played out, there was no reason Obi Wan couldn't use the Force Speed move to pass up the laser wall to prevent Qui Gon from being bested. By Force Speed I mean, as in the same way that he & Qui Gon did earlier in the film to avoid the Destroyer droids. It's like they created a rule and then broke it. I feel they did the same with Maul not being able to finish Qui Gon off during the jump.

In fact, this happens a lot in climactic fight sequences. Especially, in the SW movies. It's like they make the characters such excellent duelers that it's tough for them to have a mistake to exploit. Maul was just too good to die, although Obi Wan looked great in their 1 on 1.

Anakin's arm loss in Ep II made no sense, either. Watch it closely. It's like he went and said "I've fought pretty good, but something's compelling me to stick my arm out & wave to Yoda while Dooku winds up for the cheap seats with my elbow!" It's done on a cut so it's confusing but after many reviews, it seems weird to me, I don't know. (Not to mention, the P&Scan version of their fight looks like a homoerotic disco pick-up since you can't see the lightsabers). Dooku's wounding of Obi Wan was pretty convincing, though.

Long rant, first post. Love these movies more & more each time I watch them. But was curious what others thought. I'll shut up now. Just some food for thought.

 

Interesting...I'll have to look at that again. I did think that the duel was pushing time a little bit, but I still liked it alot.

 

1) The Music comes to an end there.

I think that's more to do with Williams choosing to do it that way. The music was added after all the footage was shot, after all. And there are two of these 'lulls' during the whole DOTF piece.

2) The other scenes end shortly after this point...Perhaps GL found this to be the most important of the three scenes and used the extension to rearrange the order.

Bingo He considered what happens with Maul/Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon to be the most important. Even though it's the least important in terms of overall victory, it's definitely big news for Anakin.

3) Everyone is in the exact same position as they are in the laser grid room.

I'm sorry...I didn't quite understand this point.

But the part where the Jedi flip at Maul, well, risking a chop to kill one Jedi would've also left Maul open to a fatal blow from the other. Guess he played it safe on that one.

A few people have complained about the Obi-Wan Force Speed thing The common line is that Obi-Wan was pretty worn out from fighting, getting kicked in the face, falling dozens of feet (definite seperated shoulder, but not in the movies I guess ), and legging it back after them. I personally feel the Force Speed bit is more trouble than it's worth, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

In fact, this happens a lot in climactic fight sequences.

It's just to make it cinematically entertaining, that's the no.1 rule. A real swordfight can often be a fairly repetative thing, without any of the spectacular moves that they can get away with on film.

Anakin's arm loss in Ep II made no sense, either.

Someone else covered this a lot better a while ago. Hopefully, someone can dig up the post, but it was along the lines of misdirection. Try the 'Personality Charactaristics in Lightsabre Combat' thread on the Saga Forum, they have some people there that have actually studied/been trained in swordfighting so I defer to them.

(Not to mention, the P&Scan version of their fight looks like a homoerotic disco pick-up since you can't see the lightsabers)

lol, glad I haven't seen this Another reason why P&S pales in comparison to widescreen. It really is the best way to go, unless you're a particular fan of Christopher Lee on the dance floor.

 

I don't know if this will help you enjoy it, but if you watch the closing moves of the Qui Gon-Maul fight, apparently Maul repeats the same sequence of moves two or three times, and Qui Gon repeats the same sequence of defensive moves. So when the final bit goes down, Maul already knows what Qui Gon's going to do next- and knows how to take advantage.

Which just goes to show what happens if you are mindful of the "here and now" at the expense of the future, and don't think enough...

>>>Caveat: As the fight played out, there was no reason Obi Wan couldn't use the Force Speed move to pass up the laser wall to prevent Qui Gon from being bested.

Well, bear in mind that at the start of the film, it was used to escape- a defensive use of the force. Charging into battle would certainly count as offensive use of the Force, which isn't the Jedi way...

Was he aware that the doors were going to close? If so, then he would have been running the danger of "force-speed"ing straight into them. (Is there such a thing as "force-stop"? )

If he didn't know about the doors, then he wouldn't have been in enough of a rush to be messing about with Force-Speed, and would most likely have been conserving his energy for the actual fight.

 

I have always hated the scene when Maul is lying on his back and QGJ jumps down and lands Right Next To Him. Hello! Maul! Either chop off his feet, or turn off one blade and plant the saber to receive charge. QGJ should have landed on a blade and been impaled. Then Maul could toss him over the edge into oblivion as OB1 watched from further down.

 

Maul was probably stunned at that moment and couldn't strike at Qui-Gon quickly enough.

 

It's still the best duel ever. TESB Bespin Duel is second in my book becuase its lightsaber moves are cool but it has more drama and it keeps you held on the edge of your seat when Vader says no I am your father.

But the Theed Duel that was just awesome it was one of those your mouth is open and so are your eyes and you just keep watching it, the music keeps you going and I was so into it I was really upset when Qui-Gon got it.

 

Choreographically, DotF was the best. Emotionally, the RotJ duel was the best.

 

Yes, as DamonD said, if you really want to examine the finer points of any of these fights you should check out the Personality Characterstics in Lightsabre.... etc over in Saga. We've been quite privelleged with a combination of creative minds and trained swordsmen, so it's a great discussion. Also, Ophelia and I have beaten into the ground the theory that most of the problems in SW can stem back to Obi-Wan getting kicked in the head repeatedly

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

ESB deul still rules. And always will. Vader is the best.

 

TESB duel is pretty good, but I agree with MetalGoldKnight: TPM and RotJ duels are better.


The only special thing about TESB is the end when Vader is tempting Luke, and that part isn't long enough to elevate it to the level of the aforementioned duels.

 

TPM: good but not realistic, they didn't aim for each other just the other persons blades. It was just made to look pretty.
AOTC: fast-paced but lacked any drama
ANH: boring
TESB: awesome. the best
ROTJ: Very good