CT Changes to the Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Kran Starborn, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    I can't remember a selfless action or deed Anakin made post PM.

    The slaughter of woman and children. Constantly putting the woman who he loves and is duty bound to protect in danger at every turn. The murder of a defenceless and armless man. The complete disregard for his unborn child in his attempts to save Padme by finally giving in to the dark side. Disloyal and resentful to a man who took him under his wing when no one else would entertain him. Selfish and arrogant (as shown in him ignoring Obi Wan and rushing in to take Dooku alone as one example)

    Sure we are told he was a good man but we were never shown it. In fact were are shown the complete opposite.
    Last edited by Lord Miggler, Mar 13, 2014
  2. sharkymcshark Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2013
    star 2

    I concur.

    The Anakin we're shown in AOTC and ROTS is an impulsive impressionable violence prone psychopath.
    Aperture Science likes this.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Except for the following...
    1. Anakin and Obi-wan chasing after Zam Wessel.
    2. Anakin rescuing Obi-wan from a nest of gundarks.
    3. Anakin going to rescue his mother knowing full well that he could be punished for it.
    4. Anakin goes to Geonosis to rescue Obi-wan.
    5. Anakin wanting to go back and save Oddball and the other members of Red Squadron, when they're in danger.
    6. Anakin taking Obi-wan with them instead of leaving him behind as Palpatine ordered him to.
    7. Anakin crash landing the Invisible Hand so that it would hit any major buildings and kill innocent civlians.
    8. Anakin questioning the Jedi Council's actions which even Obi-wan cannot deny is a bit extreme.
    9. Anakin and Obi-wan joking about the number of times he's had to save Obi-wan.
    Not to mention throughout the entire "Clone Wars" series.
  4. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Can everyone STFU about TCW in the CT forum?
    Beezer likes this.
  5. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    1. Any Jedi would do the same, he was tasked with protecting Padme. And let's not forget he was allowing her to be used as bait, putting her at greater risk.
    2. You know this doesn't take place on screen right, which is exactly my point. I'm told he's good and noble but I don't see it post PM.
    3. And simultaneously putting the woman he loves and is duty bound to protect in danger by taking her to a system controlled by the Hutts. And let's not forget the repercussions in doing so..... The mass slaughter of woman and children.
    4. And simultaneously putting the woman he loves and is duty bound to protect straight into the hands of the people who wanted her dead in the first place. Needlessly as well as the Jedi at this point are already on their way.
    5. And if he did so would have probably risked the mission at hand which is to save his friend and mentor the Supreme Chancellor
    6. I'll give you that one
    7. He landed it on a runway and still hit a building. Civilian casualties ? Possibly
    8. And at this point Anakin really isn't in any position to take the moral high ground and give lectures on morality. It is extreme but their suspicions were proven to be correct.
    9. GL's horrific attempts at banter aside, this is another instance of what I take issue with, I'm told again but it doesn't change the events of the film in which I just don't see a good man.

    Anakin for me is portrayed and written as a selfish, arrogant, reckless, resentful and hateful man child who's quick to blame others and who's stupidity knows no bounds. Quick to anger and violence and this is all before he even fully turns to the dark side, when he is supposedly at his best and most decent. He doesn't bare any traits of a decent human being let alone that of a Jedi. It makes no sense why the image of this individual from this point in his life should appear as a force ghost.

    Regarding the Clone Wars I would agree its a fine portrayal of Anakin and far superior to the one we get on the big screen, he shows compassion and great nobility but with shades of a darkness just brimming under the surface. Sadly though TWC isn't the films which will always be people's most overriding image of Anakin.
    Last edited by Lord Miggler, Mar 14, 2014
    vinsanity, TOSCHESTATION and Sarge like this.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    It has relevance since it's canon, confirmed by Lucas before the sale to Disney.

    A decision that while Obi-wan was skeptical about, consented to. As she noted in TPM, the Jedi were reckless. Which Obi-wan later pointed out to Yoda.

    It's still an example of Anakin doing good. That's why the scene was there for their introduction. It showed their friendship and established that they both helped the other out.

    Let's not forget that ten years earlier, Qui-gon Jinn did the same thing taking her to Tatooine. At the very least, no one knows she's there. As to the Tusken Slaughter, I don't deny the outcome of the trip. But the reason was pretty sound to a point.

    Padme was going to go regardless of his going.

    PADME: "He gave you strict orders to protect me...and I'm going to save Obi-wan. So if you plan to protect me, you will have to come along."

    Which doesn't change that Anakin's a good man and going to do that was a noble thing. Much like Luke going to rescue Han would have risked all their lives if he had failed.

    Which is why Palpatine had to figure out a plan B.

    "Palpatine rather hoped that Anakin was going to leave Obi-Wan during the kidnapping, but Anakin is an honorable man and Obi-Wan is his greatest friend, so Anakin insists that he bring him along."

    --Ian McDiarmid, Star Wars Insider #82.


    Better than hitting it in the Senate district, or 500 Republica.

    Didn't say that he was perfect. But the Jedi's actions went against the very things he was taught during the first few years he was a Jedi.

    That's horrible, but Luke and Han talking about owing each other isn't? The nine to ten times refers to the war.

    Of course those things were there. They had to be there for him to turn evil.. But there was also compassion and caring for others. His greatest flaw was that he cared too much. He loved his mother, his wife and his friend. He cared for his troops and cared about bringing peace to the Republic.

    Luke was also quick to anger as we saw in TESB, when he failed Yoda's test and in ANH when he started shooting wildly after the death of Obi-wan. Luke also used violence when he failed his test in the cave and when he chokes the Gammoreans. He appears as a ghost because he was a good man and his friend and Master wanted him to retain his identity.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  7. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, but it has nothing to do with the Classic Trilogy nor does it belong in the Classic Trilogy Forum.
    Beezer and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It does when we're talking about Anakin's goodness. You're not the judge of what belongs and what doesn't. You don't need to lecture me about it.
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  9. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    Anakin's goodness in the Classic Trilogy should be used during the Classic Trilogy.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  10. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    This conversation chain is totally relevant.
    Do I sense a nearby key and chain?
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  11. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  12. Grand_Moff_Jawa Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 5

    Wow, my list of hates is pretty much the same as your list of likes. [face_hypnotized]

    One thing I never understood about the enlarging of Mos Eisley… If Tatooine is such an out-of-the-way nothing of a planet, why on earth would there be a bustling city there? It seems to me being a small village would make more sense. It would be made up of those stuck there. Tatooine is the last place I'd want to start a business.
    Last edited by Grand_Moff_Jawa, Mar 16, 2014
  13. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    @Grand_Moff_Jawa I have had similar thoughts myself, though my belief (or headcanon? Interpretation I suppose is the word) is that Mos Eisley is one of a very few major cities on the planet. So of course a lot of inhabitants would flock there, and most business would go on there. Maybe Tatooine is a convenient pit stop along some trade routes. Various reasons like that
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  14. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    Better than hitting it in the Senate district, or 500 Republica.

    **The Senate was already in tatters and taking out one Gungan b*****d wouldn't harm anyone.** ;)

    Luke was also quick to anger as we saw in TESB, when he failed Yoda's test and in ANH when he started shooting wildly after the death of Obi-wan. Luke also used violence when he failed his test in the cave and when he chokes the Gammoreans. He appears as a ghost because he was a good man and his friend and Master wanted him to retain his identity.[/quote]

    **Despite Luke having supposed traits of the dark side (people really need to see the moral twist of the force and how it was before things were altered after 1983) - He isn't going to alert a group of Gamorreans by just standing their whistling whilst trying to run past like an epileptic Gungan is he or would he draw attention by igniting a Lightsaber. Luke's actions on the Death Star after Obi-Wan's demise are that of upset and anger. He hasn't even really began his training - just advice and some force focus in defence against a remote on the Falcon. Hence why Yoda says he is not ready in ESB even though Luke is believed to be the one to restore balance. The test in the cave is a loose plot reveal to his destiny. He has had minimal training at that point but his visions are stopping him focusing.

    As for young Anakin as the force ghost - it makes no logical or ethical sense. I'll repeat this again like I have for the past 10 years - how the **** would Luke know who it was and smile back at him when he's never met "that" Anakin? It's just an inconsistent change to tie a lesser trilogy to a classic one with a crappy excuse by Lucas even though we'd never seen Anakin in that form at all until 2004. We saw Anakin with a dodgy hair do in AOTC - but not some floating head pasted onto a shrunken Sebatian Shaw body. So for everyone saying "It's because of the full story" - then people may forget we saw something very different for 21 years prior to that second ROTJ Special Edition and it made no sense at all like it doesn't today.
  15. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    Horrible in terms of delivery and believability, just feels so forced much like their entire friendship.

    I'm not sure you can compare the two tbh, Luke and Hans long running "bants" or more so Hans jibes at Luke about owing him for saving his life are based on situations we see, feel and experience with them, we understand it and we are in on the joke. Hans jibes and "bants" is totally consistent with his character "that's two you owe me Junior" and therefore much more believable, better delivered all round and is given a nice payoff in ROTJ with Han acknowledging "now I owe you one" nice subtle and more importantly natural character moments that further strengthen the bond between the two.

    Most of Obi wan and Anakins are based on events we neither see or experience with them, "nest of Gundarks" or "9th time that buisness on (insert random planet here) doesn't count" we can't laugh with then because we don't know what we're laughing at or why it's funny all we know is its funny to them but even then I don't believe it as it's so poorly delivered.
    Last edited by Lord Miggler, Mar 17, 2014
    Sarge and fuzzbox77 like this.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Pretty much. The way it is described in the film and the screenplay, was that it was the most significant place to go to, in order to get a lot of business done. As well as coming and going. Not to mention that later in the film itself, we see the various buildings in Mos Eisley which contradicts the main street area. The larger space port in the SE is more consistent and with the introduction of Mos Espa, there was an even greater need for consistency.

    Luke didn't need to choke the Gammoreans, just use the mind trick on them which he has no problem doing to Bib Fortuna. Obi-wan didn't bother to choke anyone during ANH and the PT backs this up. Luke's actions were still wrong which is part of the reason why Obi-wan told him to run. And the cave was to point out that he was being led by his emotions which will be his undoing. Yoda warned him to not go in with his weapons and he refused to listen. Which winds up being ironic in ROTJ, when he enters Jabba's palace without his Lightsaber and later surrenders his weapon, in order to meet with his father.

    This presumes that Luke is dumber than a box of rocks to not realize that that is what his father looked like when he was younger. Lucas was making a point of showing that this is who Anakin was, a good man and that the older man, is what he had been as Vader.
    Andy Wylde, Darth Raiden and Seagoat like this.
  17. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    The premise of Luke

    The premise of Luke knowing what his father looked like is one of indifference. See it from this standing point:

    Luke had just unmasked his father hours earlier and his heart sank as he looked down on a frail old man (now without *wait for it*.... eyebrows) and watched him taking his last breaths as he reflects on his brief compassion for the children he never really knew (despite psychological and physical torture/dismemberment etc) - so in a strong sense - the good in Anakin was still there as Luke felt it until the moment Anakin had died. Hours later (in realtime if it is seen that way) we are treated to a display of a "Victory Celebration" with some young vision pop up who Luke has never seen before and just gone "Ok, that's daddy"??? Hang on...

    SO, Anakin now appears in a form when he was good by Lucas' explanation??? Otherwise why would he appear in that form at all???

    Ridiculous. That itself contradicts Luke's feelings and senses that Vader still has good in him - therefore he had it until his dying moments otherwise he wouldn't have saved his son from certain death at the hands of his master. Where as Lucas' new vision just prompts with an explanation of "This is how it is now" - like we'd just accept it and not changing the narrative of Luke's own agenda/destiny whilst just attempting to tie two trilogies together with the new creepy addition.

    So Luke who could only see a clouded future can now suddenly look into the past and see that this man who was his father is now 40 years younger and just take it with a few seconds of a glimpse (in it's 2004 edited form).

    It gels as well as a skinhead who has just spent £100 on haircare products.

    If there is the assumption "that Luke is dumber than a box of rocks to not realize that that is what his father looked like when he was younger" - that means the addition of Hayden Christensen contradicts the storyline of Jedi with Luke attempting the redemption of his father and the good felt within him which Luke is morally bound to throughout the last hour and twenty five minutes of the film from Obi-Wan's appearance to Vader throwing the Emperor down the reactor shaft. It effects the narrative, dialogue and actions on screen.

    And if indeed the good within Anakin had died when he became Vader in ROTS (like Lucas' explanation/fan acceptance) - he wouldn't have attempted to save his son - which in essence, doesn't add up.

    It doesn't make any sense at all.
    Last edited by fuzzbox77, Mar 17, 2014
  18. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I can't see how, if the good part of Anakin died completely in ROTS, that Anakin Skywalker would come back at all in ROTJ. Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader in ROTJ during the duel. That to me means Anakin was always there (no matter how small a part of him it was), and in ROTJ was fighting for control again. He didn't get redeemed until he was an old man, not 23.
    vinsanity, Sarge and Garrett Atkins like this.
  19. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    I agree, the Force Ghost fiasco is a real mess. I didn't know who the hell that was when I first watched ROTJ.
  20. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    I saw the "New" Force Ghost 6 days before the release when the box sets came into work early (HMV). The shock and horror of these new changes was bad enough until my supervisor said "Now check this piece of **** out"...

    Who was that? Now, I knew it was Christensen - but their was no real or valid explanation of why??? So I come to the conclusion that Lucas doesn't know the story of his franchise very well and was just making changes for the sake of getting his new vision of Star Wars out there whilst wanting to eradicate the original vision altogether (even though it was Marquand's film) and nobody could contest his choice except fans and employees of LFL/ILM and without Marquand on this earth - Lucas could control everything.

    If Marquand had still been alive today - I doubt Lucas would have been able to make the inconsistent and horrible changes he had from 1997-2011.
    Heero_Yuy and SarlacsDinerParty like this.
  21. SarlacsDinerParty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2014
    star 1
    The changes are fine ! You are just being hysterical IMO:cool:
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  22. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    It wasn't "Marquand's film". He was a journeyman director, employed to collaborate, nothing more, and I'm sure if he was alive today, he'd be the first person to say that it wasn't 'his film'.

    That's just ridiculous. He'd be free to say how much he disliked the changes, but that wouldn't have had the slightest influence on them happening. He would have had zero legal ownership over the cut of the film, dead or alive. Irvin Kershner had nothing to do with the SE of ESB (which was done while he was alive), same would have applied to Marquand.

    Auteur theory automatically attributing primary artistic ownership of a film to the director is tired old claptrap that should have been buried in the early 1970s, when everyone cottoned on to the fact that it was nonsense. It's often also an insult to the other people who may have been on the film for much, much longer than the director (usually the writer or producer).
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 18, 2014
    Andy Wylde, Seagoat and FRAGWAGON like this.
  23. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    It's funny that you say the Auteur Theory is clap trap (which I actually agree with you on 100%) when Lucas himself is it's biggest advocate. He mentions it more than once in the PT docs I believe.

    Of course Star Wars and George Lucas are exactly why I feel the Auteur theory is inherently absurd. Especially with something as big as SW has become.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The only indifference is with you and those who share your belief. Luke isn't going to be going, "WTF". He's seeing his dead and is happy that he made it to where Obi-wan and Yoda are. That he wasn't lost when he died. That he is, at long last, at peace and is once again, the good man that he knew he was.

    Lucas once described what happened to Anakin when he became Vader was that the good in his was, in essence, dead. But that the good could be resurrected within him. Which is what Luke does. He resurrects the good within his father during their confrontation on Cloud City, specifically at the end when Luke refuses to join him. As to why...


    "[Hayden in ROTJ] was added because it was a way of finishing off the series. The idea was that [Anakin's] inner person would go back to where we left off when it turned to the dark side -- when [Anakin] got burned up and everything, but before [he] got burned up. So when [he] comes back to the good side of the Force, that it's [his] FORMER PERSONA that survives NOT the DARTH VADER PERSONA."

    --George Lucas AOL interview, 2005.

    Then there's this...

    "In addition to the Zen-like Force that "surrounds us and penetrates us...(and) binds the galaxy together," as Obi-wan tells Luke, another Eastern religious element can be found in Vader's resemblance to demons that, in the Buddhist tradition, were at one time human and, through the actions of Buddha or his followers, are freed from their demonic state.

    They usually wind up dying and through death are released from their demonic state. Again, that's a parallel to Vader, who is only freed at the point of his death."

    --Shanti Fader, USA Today article and "Star Wars And Philosophy."
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Mar 18, 2014
    Andy Wylde and Iron_lord like this.
  25. fuzzbox77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2008
    star 1
    [/quote]Lucas once described what happened to Anakin when he became Vader was that the good in his was, in essence, dead. But that the good could be resurrected within him. Which is what Luke does. He resurrects the good within his father during their confrontation on Cloud City, specifically at the end when Luke refuses to join him. As to why...


    "[Hayden in ROTJ] was added because it was a way of finishing off the series. The idea was that [Anakin's] inner person would go back to where we left off when it turned to the dark side -- when [Anakin] got burned up and everything, but before [he] got burned up. So when [he] comes back to the good side of the Force, that it's [his] FORMER PERSONA that survives NOT the DARTH VADER PERSONA."

    --George Lucas AOL interview, 2005.[/quote]

    So there was good in him all along as we all know, It still doesn't alter the fact that the change was imperative or necessary. And yet that explanation was made upto a year after he released that cut of the S.E onto the public. I'm pretty sure an original explanation was made in Empire film magazine around the release of the DVD box set. But that's Lucas changing his views more times than most care to mention.

    But I digress... It's still far beyond awful.