CT Changes to the Original Trilogy

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Kran Starborn, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 26, 2004
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    I've never heard about that clone bit before. Do you have a quote? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to see what he said.


    I would cut it all out. I don't think there needed to be that continuity explanation. "Bring my shuttle" explains why Vader was then on the Star Destroyer well enough without needing to see all of it. It's also a much better character moment. The growling way he said it, and the fact that he was clearly pissed off, shows his reaction to Luke doing something unexpected: throwing himself down the giant shaft, and escaping Vader.


    Good point about the message to Jabba. I agree, it should be in there then.
    Last edited by Brandon Rhea, Apr 18, 2014
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    It's not a quote, it is what is seen in the films.

    -Clonetroopers pilot the gunships.

    -Clonetroopers piloting the ARC-170's above Coruscant.

    -Clonetroopers on Speeder Bikes.

    -Clonetroopers flying in formation with Plo Koon.

    -Clonetroopers piloting the AT-TE's and AT-AP's.

    Never once in ROTS do we see a non clone officer until the bridge of the Republic Cruiser where Vader, Tarkin and Sidious are watching the construction of the Death Star.
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  3. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Sure, from in-universe continuity, but what you're saying (or at least I think you're saying?) is that, by that point in 1977, Lucas had decided that the clones flew with the Jedi during the war? Which would surprise me.
  4. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    I think Lucas just didn't want to deal with the baggage of having some random dude who supposedly knew Anakin talking to Luke about him in Episode IV, given that we never see Garven Dreis in the PT. It kind of comes out of nowhere if you're watching the films chronologically. This could have been fixed by giving him a cameo in the PT, but I guess Lucas didn't want to bother.

    e: To be clear, I'm talking about why Lucas cut that line when he restored the scene for the Special Editions. I think by that time at least he was probably thinking forward to the prequels.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Apr 18, 2014
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  5. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Where else would Vader be going? A picnic?

    Really? Other people wouldn't be fighting in the war to defend their planets? That's dumb. Clones can't be everywhere.
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  6. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    I think the fact that he wasn't shown is actually a pro, not a con. Establishing that Red Leader met Anakin, an event never seen in the prequels or The Clone Wars, widens the universe. It's world-building. It shows how much of an impact Anakin had on people. Even after 20 years, people still remember Anakin as the great Jedi hero of the Clone Wars. That's good for Anakin's character, and it's a great way for Luke to get to vicariously know his father a little more. Luke thought Anakin was a navigator on a spice freighter, then learned he fought in the war, and now a higher up in this Rebellion Luke is enamored with knew who Anakin was and admired him? That's a great character moment.

    Plus it has the added benefit of answering the age old question: does the galaxy know that Anakin became Vader? In this case, the answer would be no.
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  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    No, the whole scene with Biggs and Garven Dries was cut in 77 due to pacing issues. When Lucas inserted it in 96 for release in 97, he had already decided that the clones fought alongside the Jedi Order and that there weren't non clone pilots like in the Battle of Coruscant. Hence cut the line about his serving alongside Anakin.

    No, we saw the Wookiees fighting alongside the Clonetroopers on Kashyyyk, but we never saw non human clones in the films. Back in 2003-2005, Lucas was still sticking with his guns. There was no animated series, just the shorts and even then, he wasn't being entirely accepting of them as part of the film canon. If he wanted Dries in ROTS, we would have saw him.
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  8. Force Smuggler Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Forget Lucas for just two seconds! A 3 year war with two movies bridge gapping the war. We don't see the whole war. They could have fought side by side during the war. Why would there not be human/alien help? Seems impractical otherwise don't you think? Besides in the battle of Coruscant, we only follow Anakin and Obi-Wan and what see the workings of 2 ships? We don't even see the land battle. Non-clones not fighting in the war? Give me a break. Just because we didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen. The common people not fighting for the planets? Can't buy it, no matter what Lucas says. Not everything has to be seen but to assume it didn't happen because we didn't see it seems dumb to me.
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  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It may seem dumb to you, but that's how it is.
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  10. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

    Even if that's true, the dialogue of the scene doesn't make it inconsistent with the clones. The dialogue was, "I met your father once when I was just a boy. He was a great pilot. You’ll do all right. If you’ve got half of your father’s skill, you’ll do better than all right."

    If anything, it's inconsistent with the fact that he says he met Anakin as a boy. Starting Anakin off as a kid and making him in his early 20s when he became Vader is what would probably make the scene inconsistent. So I would bet that's why Lucas cut it.
    Last edited by Brandon Rhea, Apr 19, 2014
  11. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    That scene exists in a limited form. Coming off the script, the shooting really had to be compromised because of what could and couldn't be accomplished at that point. Though going back today, the scenes could be polished off nicely; I'd like to see them completed, if only as deleted scenes.
    Like it's said, we DO see Luke with his lightsaber before. Though I still like the surprise of seeing his ignite a bright green blade. I liked a work print of the scene, where Luke (still shrouded) is seen completing it briefly after Vader beckons to him, but he doesn't ignite it. Maybe it's just because the effects weren't added, but I liked how it played out nonetheless.
    Yeah, I remember how many people were drawn to that line in particular when the EditDroid Laserdisc was released. In particular, people said that it helped Obi-Wan's character, since he still gets a lot of heat for his "certain point of view."
    Last edited by SlashMan, Apr 19, 2014
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    But the prequels never show Anakin fighting with ordinary soldiers. When you decide on whether a scene in a movie fits or not, you have to base the decision on more than if it would make literal sense from an in-universe perspective. You have to make sure it flows with what came before, and doesn't introduce more questions than it answers.

    We already know the wider galaxy doesn't know Anakin is Vader. If they did, Obi-Wan wouldn't have bothered lying to Luke about it. Introducing some random dude we've never seen before to reminisce about Anakin may not literally contradict anything, but it's awkward from a narrative perspective, and doesn't actually add much. Watching the movies in order, you'd just be like, who the hell is this guy, and how much does he know about Anakin? Does he know he's Vader and is keeping it a secret just like Obi-Wan? Is there a wider conspiracy among the Rebel leadership to keep Luke's parentage a secret? Or is he just some random dude Anakin fought with who doesn't know anything about what happened? Okay, then why do we care what he has to say, and where were the non-clone soldiers like this guy during the prequels? These are all questions that would take a chronological viewer out of the movie, only if even a little bit, and for marginal benefit. I can completely understand why it was taken out.

    Like I said, it would be different if we actually saw Anakin fighting alongside Garven Dreis, or people like Garven Dreis, in the prequels, but we never did.
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  13. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Like I said in my last post, the line is that Red Leader met Anakin. He didn't say he fought with Anakin. It's world-building, not everything has to be shown. If anything, the inconsistency is the fact that Red Leader isn't really young enough to have met Anakin as a boy.


    I personally don't give Obi-Wan heat for it, but the "certain point of view" line is a bit of a contrived explanation for the two different stories. Adding the Yoda line in helps with that, IMO, since it shows that there was a plan in place and Yoda was sort of controlling what Obi-Wan could and couldn't say.
    Last edited by Brandon Rhea, Apr 19, 2014
  14. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    There's a good few lines that were in the shooting scripts which were most likely eliminated because they were a bit too specific about a storyline that wasn't really thought through - Owen as Obi-Wan's brother, Luke & Leia's mother fleeing to Alderaan, even Jabba saying that he was killing Luke's kind "when being a Jedi meant something" (which was shot).
    Including them would have restricted GL if & when he wrote the PT, and as it turned out, Owen wasn't Obi-Wan's brother, Padme died almost immediately following childbirth, and Jabba's presence in the PT was virtually non-existent.

    The Yoda line wouldn't have complicated matters too much, but we don't know all the alternative storylines that might have been floating around in GL's head - hell, at one point he considered the wacky notion of Obi-Wan Kenobi's apprentice Qui-Gon Jinn taking on his master's identity when Obi-Wan was killed.

    Given that Yoda was initially a somewhat hastily constructed character with no backstory inserted into ESB because of the last-minute decision to kill off Obi-Wan in SW/ANH, it'd be fair to say that the specifics of his role in the PT, let alone his role in hiding Anakin's children, were vague at best when ROTJ was made.
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  15. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 26, 2004
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    I'm not sure they were removed because they would've restricted what happened in the PT. After all, the mere existence of the OT restricted what could happen in the PT. That ship had sailed long ago. If anything, the removal of some of those lines was probably because of relevance. Owen being Obi-Wan's brother felt shoehorned and wasn't given the attention it deserved - where was Luke's reaction to that? Luke and Leia's mother fleeing to Alderaan was probably because it raised even more questions, and because this wasn't a story about their mother.

    I do wish Jabba's line had been kept, though. That didn't have to be shown in the PT in order for it to be in the OT.
  16. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    Everything save Greedo shoots first instead of only Han shoots simply because it doesn't work visually. The whole scene needs to be reworked so that the Jabba scene isn't so redundant.

    Other than that virtually every change made is quite good I wish they'd done a few more. I think the best thing to have done would be to release the original cuts that way you could really go to town and do all kinds of things including adding the Luke and Biggs scenes back in, showing the Emperor on Coruscant and all sorts of other things that could be done to tie the OT and PT together even more.

    I would have preferred the original color timing maintained but it's really not that big a deal the only drawback being some of the Lightsabers being off colour not that they were the most consistent of things ever but as above they could have gone through and made them look consistent all the way through.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, Apr 21, 2014
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jabba isn't really redundant with Greedo in the film since Jabba gives Han another chance, whereas Greedo was going to screw Han over, no matter what. If all you focus on is Han being in trouble with Jabba, then you miss the larger point. Fortunately, Lucas had altered the dialogue from the shoot script so that it can work with or without Jabba.
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  18. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    I think he's talking about the fact that the Jabba scene repeats exposition from the Greedo scene almost word for word. This is because the Jabba scene was originally supposed to provide that exposition, but when it got cut, those lines had to be transplanted into the Greedo scene. When Lucas reinserted the Jabba scene, he didn't bother changing the Greedo scene (except for, you know), hence the redundancy.

    It doesn't bother me personally, because I like both scenes anyway, but there is an issue in that sense.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I know the origin, but I was pointing out that Jabba actually gives Han another chance to pay him off which wasn't in the Greedo scene. Greedo says that Jabba will just take the Falcon, while he would just take the money if he was paid in the Cantina. There's no way to alter the Greedo scene without removing him, which can't be done since Han and Jabba discuss killing Greedo.
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  20. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    The Greedo scene could just be altered back to the original dialogue, if that's what you're debating:

    Personally, I'd find reservations in taking away from such an iconic scene, though. Adding changes isn't nearly as bad as taking things away.
    Last edited by SlashMan, Apr 23, 2014
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    And as long as we're on the topic, I'd like to point out that the Jabba scene doesn't really take away from the Millennium Falcon reveal IMO. You still don't get a full wide-shot of the Falcon until Luke, Obi-Wan, and the droids arrive. If you hadn't seen the movie before, you'd have no idea what you were seeing in the background of the Jabba scene.
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  22. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 18, 2013
    star 3
    Yes. Actually lines were directly lifted from the Jabba scene. Even I get boarded sometimes. Do you think I had a choice?

    So first the movie version:

    CANTINA MOVIE CUT - HAN/GREEDO
    AA50. INT. CANTINA - MOS EISLEY
    The stormtroopers walk past Han and Chewbacca giving them both a careful check out. Han turns to the giant Wookiee.

    HAN
    Seventeen thousand! Those guys must really be desperate. This could really save my neck. Get back to the ship, get it ready.

    As Han and Chewbacca slide out of the booth, a slimy green-faced alien with a short trunk nose pokes a gun in Han's side. He speaks in Huttese.

    GREEDO
    Going somewhere, Solo?

    HAN
    Yes. Greedo. As a matter of fact, I was just going to see your boss. Tell Jabba that I've got his money.

    Han sits down and Greedo sits across from him holding the gun on him.

    GREEDO
    It's too late. .. You should have paid him when you had the chance. Jabba's put a price on your head so large every bounty hunter in the galaxy will be looking for you. I'm lucky I found you first.

    HAN
    Yeah, but this time I've got the money.

    GREEDO
    If you give it to me, I might forget I found you.

    HAN
    I don't have it with me.Tell Jabba...

    GREEDO
    Jabba's through with you. He has no time for smugglers who drop their shipments at the first sign of an imperial cruiser.

    HAN
    Even I get boarded sometimes. Do you think I had a choice?

    GREEDO
    You can tell that to Jabba. He may only take your ship.
    HAN

    GREEDO [Laughing]
    That's the idea. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
    HAN
    Yes. I'll bet you have.

    Suddenly Greedo disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patrons look on in bemused amazement.

    Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping the bartender some coins as he leaves.

    HAN
    Sorry about the mess.

    Then as above the original scene:


    CANTINA ROUGHT CUT - HAN/GREEDO

    AA50. INT. CANTINA - MOS EISLEY

    The stormtroopers walk past Han and Chewbacca giving them both a careful check out. Han turns to the giant Wookiee.

    HAN
    Seventeen thousand! Those guys must really be desperate. This could really save my neck. Get back to the ship, get it ready.

    As Han and Chewbacca slide out of the booth, a slimy green-faced alien with a short trunk nose pokes a gun in Han's side. He speaks in Huttese.

    GREEDO
    Going somewhere, Solo?

    HAN
    Yes. Greedo. As a matter of fact, I was just going to see your boss. Tell Jabba that I've got his money.

    GREEDO
    That's what you said yesterday, but it's too late... I'm not going back to Jabba with another one of your stories.

    HAN
    Yeah, but this time I've got the money.

    GREEDO
    Then I'll take it now.

    Han sits down and Greedo sits across from him holding the gun on him.

    HAN
    I don't have it with me.Tell Jabba...

    GREEDO
    It's too late. Jabba would rather have your ship.

    HAN
    Over my dead body.

    GREEDO [Laughing]
    That is the idea, Solo. Now you'll come outside with me or must I finish it here?

    HAN [Scoffs]
    I don't think they'd like another killing in here.

    GREEDO
    They'd hardly notice. Get up. I've been looking forward to this for a long time...

    HAN
    Yes. I'll bet you have.

    Suddenly Greedo disappears in a blinding flash of light. Han pulls his smoking gun from beneath the table as the other patrons look on in bemused amazement.

    Han gets up and starts out of the cantina, flipping the bartender some coins as he leaves.

    HAN
    Sorry about the mess.
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  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right and in the final version of the Jabba scene.

    HAN: "I had no choice, but I've got a charter now and I can pay you back, plus a little extra. I just need some more time."

    JABBA: "Han, my boy, I'm only doing this because you're the best and I need you. So, for an extra, say...twenty percent I'll give you a little more time...but this is it. If you disappoint me again, I'll put a price on your head, so large you won't be able to go near a civilized system for the rest of your life."

    Which we then have the addition of Boba Fett which foreshadows the next film and then we follow right up with this...

    HAN: "General, I've got to leave. I can't stay anymore."

    RIEEKAN: "I'm sorry to hear that."

    HAN: "Well, there's a price on my head. If I don't pay off Jabba the Hutt, I'm a dead man."

    RIEEKAN: "A death mark's not an easy thing to live with. You're a good fighter, Solo. I hate to lose you."


    And...

    LEIA: "I thought you decided to stay."

    HAN: "Well, the bounty hunter we ran into on Ord Mantell changed my mind."


    Putting the Jabba scene in there gives Han some room for being lax in paying off Jabba and then getting a wake up call that he's in trouble.
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  24. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    After watching the OT on the big screen over the weekend as part of SW Day celebrations I have to say that the only changes that really bother me much now are some of the CGI additions. Anything which if it had been there to begin with I wouldn't have thought twice about I barely notice now. The new 'Noooooo', Hayden as Anakin's ghost etc. I may not prefer them if I could choose, but they don't make me balk like they used to. Those CGI additions, though, I just don't think I'll ever come to grips with. I started watching SW/ANH and was quickly engrossed in the story and totally immersed in that world / universe. Then things like CGI Jabba and the Mos Eisley additions appeared and I was even more quickly jarred out of it.
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  25. AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2014
    star 3
    I think some of the changes in the original aren't too bad, the little addition of more Stormtroopers and the transport in the desert when they discover the droid part. The changes to the end space battle effects improve it and aren't as noticeable as the effects added to Mos Eisley and new Jabba scene. The addition of more troopers as Han rounds the corner seems daft, but I don't mind that one. Han shooting first is a shocker as most of us already accept, mainly because because it looks rubbish. Greedo misses from there as Han moves quickly aside, its impossible and looks badly edited. I think the overriding feeling of watching the special edition now is that those CGI effects probably looks a lot worse than the original 1977 effects.

    In ESB the Wampa is much better and the additional cgi to open up cloud city improve it. But the end shuttle landing on the Executor I really hate as its a ROTJ outtake with Jerjerod. The changes to remove the obvious matte lines in the original version improve the Hoth effects too. Using Mcdiarmid in this one was a wise move, even if the newly added dialogue doesn't work, but I put that down to being used to the original too much.

    ROTJ benefits from matte line removal in the Rancor scene too. The 2 musical additions are the worst though, just too cheesy or stupid in the case of Jabbas band. The addition of Hayden to the end is odd, when Vader died he was a lot older so why does he revert to his younger self? I like that they added additional crowd celebrations at the end of the film, especially the inclusion of Coruscant. But surely the Empire forces there wouldn't be so easily overrun so quickly, but thats a minor quibble.

    I've only watched the blu ray versions once so I can't remember everything they changed off the top of my head.
    Last edited by AndyLGR, May 8, 2014
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