CT Changes to the Original Trilogy

I don't care for that change for film-historical reasons.

The effects in the OT were revolutionary, there is no reason to make them prettier.

I would be perfectly fine with the original versinos, warts and matte boxes and all.

 

While I most favour a restoration or a minimally cleaned up OOT, not everyone thinks 'modern' is better or even prettier when it distorts the original context of a piece. It's not solely about looks or keeping up with the Jones'. It's about preserving spirit, history, and original merits.

 

Lucas always comes off as ashamed of the OT. They need "fixing" to be acceptable to people. Nothing could be further from the truth. He was able to create a cult around himself so that people automatically believe anything he says- which is why he was able to perpetuate the lie of "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" for so long.

It is obvious Lucas loves the PT more. That's why the big push of the past 15 years has been so PT biased. He even took some of the most criticized parts of the PT (Hayden Christension and NOOOOOO! spring to mind) and shoved them into ROTJ. So you can understand why I get disgusted.

I think the OOT should be restored and offered as a viable alternative, and not the passive-agressive LD master that was the 2006 slap in the face. I would prefer not to have to buy the SEs to get the real movies, keep them separate please. I was offered the 2011 Blu-Rays for free and I refused, because they are not something I think are worth owning.

 

You know what's funny? At german Amazon, the Saga box with all six movies is cheaper than the one with only IV to VI. If that isn't speaking with your valet, I don't know what is!

 

GL does seem ashamed of the OT, Winter. I have noticed that. I think it a great shame. Yet, I think it's because he dislikes the constraints on his creativity during the era. I can empathise to a point with that. What I dislike is how some of the PTers and GL himself seem to criticise some for liking what HE released in the first place. Nothing would've happened if not for Star Wars.

 

Just like many of us on here I grew up with the originals, watching them countless times on video and maybe its an age thing when to me those original effects don't bother me at all. The original releases are what millions of people fell in love with, yet it seems as though we are criticised or made to feel precious because we feel that way about them.

Something that bugs me about Lucas saying that he wanted to improve SW to make it closer to his original vision, is why didn't he change as many of the effects as possible instead of just a few,? Because when these new effects come on screen some of them are really jarring as they don't match the rest of the film. That to me makes them look worse in some instances.

One change that I have no issue with is the cleaning up matte lines, thats a minor change to my mind that wouldn't stand out too much. The Rancor and the Hoth battle scene spring to mind as looking much better.

 

Yes Lucas had time and money constraints. Its a common lament of TV and film production. But with those limitations he was able to create a stone cold classic. Sometimes freedom can limit creativity.

 

I don't really think GL's issue was freedom but structure but I get what you're saying.

 

He wasn't doing it for the people. He was doing it for himself. He's said for a number of years, that he's made the films that he wanted to make, the way he wanted to make them because he was making them for himself. And when it came to changing ANH in the 90's, it was because he wanted it to look different from what was achieved back in 77. Fox had wanted to release the films for the anniversary, but he had a condition of making changes as he saw fit. And it isn't that he was ashamed, but to him, all he could see were the flaws. Artoo was a vacuum cleaner, the Stormtroopers didn't looking menacing, the aliens looked like rubber masks.

Except for all the OT action figures, posters, video games, books, comics, re-releasing the OT SE soundtracks, putting out the OT on DVD as well as the THX versions and so on. Plus, there was three movies that he was concentrating on. The cartoon series was done first because it was animated, while the OT era show was going to be live action.

Right, because he didn't want to, you know, tie the films together.

Lucas did change a lot of the effects. On ANH, he changed quite a bit. While most are well known, there were those that weren't as noticed.

-Changing the Jawa Sandcrawler by re-shooting all the exterior shots, or altering the landscape.
-Changed the binary sunset.
-Fixing the Lightsaber blades.
-Remastering the audio.

TESB and ROTJ had fewer changes because those were more acceptable for him since ILM had improved a lot. What was changed on those two films, was more syncing up to the PT aesthetics.

 

darth-sinister

If Lucas wanted to make the OT and the PT synch up, he should have done so by writing the PT to match what the OT told us about the era (Which was so little, it wouldn't have been hard). Instead he alters the OT to match the PT, and that's a lazy and hack way of doing it.

As for the flaws, did we really need more rocks in front of R2-D2? Did Greedo need to shoot at all? How about cutting frames from when Imperials got hit by a blaster? Most of the changes were unnecessary and some downright stupid.

He can't even get the SEs right. Can you honestly say that you look at the DVD/Blu master and think those colors are good? Because I didn't know the Blockade Runner was blue, the Rebel troopers were lobster men, or Anakin's Lightsaber was green. Vader must be getting in touch with his feminine side by carrying a pink lightsaber. Then you have the crushed blacks that are so bad, you lose detail. Like on the Imperial uniforms, Vader and even the star fields are gone.

As for the toys, there has been so much PT crap that the OT did get the shaft. No X-Wings in general retail for a decade (exclusives only) but the Jedi Starfighters were repackaged year after year. The large AT-AT and Falcon did well, but the Attack Shuttle sat and the MTT killed off that price point line. The Phantom Menace Vintage wave clogged the pegs for months and I still see Ric Ole at Walmart. Any line targeted at kids is just ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, Clones, Jango Fett and maybe Jedi Luke. Its finally coming back on track somewhat.

 

He did write the PT to match the OT. Certain details were different, but not so much as to be an issue. Lucas has long done that starting with TESB, when he decided to make Vader be Luke's father. Going against expectations, while still making the connections.

I admit that the rocks issue is odd. As to Greedo shooting first, I'm not bothered by it. Greedo is still killed and either way, he still looks like a dumbass. Cutting frames from the blast marks has to do with his own feelings regarding how much detail was needed.

I'm not bothered and barely notice it.

No one can accurately predict what will and will not sell. I've seen that across various toy lines. Kids that have a say in what they want, will often go in the opposite direction of retailer offerings and toy manufacturer estimates. Parents that buy randomly will look at cost and sometimes their own interest, in choosing what to purchase. TPM toys were available because of the re-release and because the line didn't sell too well when the film first came out. Not because of the film quality, but a lot of product didn't sell too well that year. Ric Oile still being on sell is due to his being a shelfwarmer. That happens a lot. Mudflap in "Transformers: Cybertron" Mudflap did not sell well and was a shelfwarmer for the longest time. Those that you mentioned were top sellers, hence always being in circulation.

 

He did exactly that as much as humanly possible that is. Why that isn't recognized I don't know. I see it everywhere. In fact as much as I thought it was done it turns out it was done to a degree that no one fully appreciated until this excellent article a few months back:

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

For you they were. For other they were not. Lucas made a million decisions on the films when he made them. It does no good to pretend that you agree with 99.9% of the decisions he made originally and are against 99.9% of them since then. You are precious about things in a way he can't be.

What colours? The ones I set on my new 60 inch Sony LED HDTV where I can change the color, backlit, contrast, sharpness and all kinds of other things to suit what I like to look at? Not that I couldn't do the same on my standard TV. Between the TV and the BDP settings I can make the lighting look like anything I want to. If I want the picture to look like video I can do that to.

It's a bit of a false starter don't you think?

Not in my versions on BD. If you don't like the lighting they turn the brightness and contrast up. Tell you what I will check out the BD's on the standard setting and see what happens (mind you I NEVER have used the standard setting on my TV's).

 

I want that on a T-shirt.

 

OK first off let's use screen captures from the DVD versions of the SE's and the original from the bonus DVD's of the LD's.

First as it appears in ROTS:






Here it appears as people remember it being. All glowing white. Which is never really the way it was.


















So as you can see and depending on the eye of the beholder the SE does tend to have a tinge of bluish white (or whitish blue?) but neither is like the ROTS white which is the "2001" kind.

The difference when watching in motion and in HD makes the slight difference even lesser dependent on the shot. Comparing the BD to the DSE's also shows that it's up to the person watching to see exactly how blue it is. As with anything if you freeze frame it and then study it then it's going to be a much bigger deal than if you just actually watch it.

That is on the standard setting. The custom settings I generally use (not only for Star Wars but most everything) get rid of this minor blue tint. In fact besides the standard setting and the custom settings you can use the other setting is called vivid and that pumps all the color up and really makes things look very "70's" in color tones.

 

http://savestarwars.com/specialeditionfail.html

You can even see in your screen caps, C-3PO takes a green hue. Look at the detail in Vader's outfit that is lost when the blacks were crushed, it is apparent even with the LD non-anamorphic master.


No matter what your opinion of the changes, the 2004 remaster is absolute crap. It needs to be redone, at 4K, by a competent team. Preferably Robert Harris. Now all the CGI was done at 2K so you would need to upscale them or redo them from scratch. Which ILM does not have the time to do because all efforts will be on the ST and spinoffs. A proper 4K master of the OOT will look better than a mismash of 2K 1990's CGI and 4K 1970's material. It would make the bad CGI stand out even more.

This isn't Dude, Where's My Car? this is Star Wars and needs to be treated with respect. Not like a fading whore, painted up to try and look attractive.

 

Well, anyone who doesn't have the common sense to disarm their intended target and keep their hands where they can be seen, deserves to be shot.

 

It would only stand out if you watched it in 4K not 2K...

 

I think stating he takes on a green hue is a bit much don't you think?

I can name series after series like Star Trek, TNG, Sherlock Holmes and many others that looked one way on TV and VHS, then DVD and now remastered in HD where all sorts of details and colors you never saw before now come out. Again watching it frame by frame then studying each one to find the minute difference that might very well have been there all along is not the same as actually watching it. Scanning from the O-Neg is a digital process. Film to film can't do this. So to me it's a bit much when some film-makers complain about digital when they use it as much as anyone to make their films look better.

How do you feel about film grain?

On standard TV's you don't really notice it but now with my HDTV you can see all the differences in the world with grain which the older a film is the often grainer it is. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Not at all but it still is something you have to get used to.

Non-anamorphic and standard def. Believe me all the detail is still there and if you want to see it then you can. Again with the TV or the BD player you can customize the picture as you see fit. In HD all these differences seem far more minor compared to on smaller SD screens. So imagine George overseeing it on the screens he was using.

No that is your opinion. What it really looks like I don't know since it wasn't released in HD and it hardly matters now as it's been replaced by the 2011 versions.

Sorry but all this 2K and 4K stuff you have been reading about is almost but not quite complete nonsense when dealing with real world performance. First off 35mm film resolves at about 3K so it's doesn't become "true" 4K anyway.

I rather doubt the human eye can tell the difference between HD (which is slightly less than 2K), 2K, 4K except in the very best conditions which are generally only going to be achieved in a high tech video lab.

Today with many people watching on phones, tablets, computer screens and digital watches and at home still looking at SD or smaller HDTV screens then all this HD, 4K etc has even less impact. DVD audio sounded awesome but failed like 8 tracks.



Never mind the video source for a second. The TV screen and in the theaters the projection is a bigger part of the overall process.

Ever see AOTC in IMAX? Looked pretty great and that was a conversion process from 2002. How much better would it be now? Then think about seeing AOTC and ROTS on digital screens now and 3D and IMAX and IMAX 3D. The 3D versions of II and III they done used all sorts of different processes to remake them for stereo as they call it. Next step up is laser projection.

Somehow I think for you all CGI is bad (especially in Star Wars) no matter how good it is. Of course then there is the whole point of all the "Bad CGI" that isn't CGI at all but in fact practical models, miniatures, sets and the like.

You can scan the OOT as you call it at 4K, 6K, 8K etc. It's not really go to make much of a difference. The top resolution MAY be 3K (or depending on the frames and other factors it could be less) that is if it really is 3K and not as some people claim more like 2.5K.

No matter what you do it's simply not going to have the detail that the PT does because it isn't there. The composition of the shots doesn't have the layers and layers of density to the image in terms of picture, color and details present. A 6 foot model of the Blockade Runner can be resolved to whatever you want it to but it's still going to be a 194cm model's detail. The same vehicle from ROTS is going to be a digital model that could be 1:1 at 150 meters long with life size detailing and color.

If you did do a 4K version of the OOT then you probably would do as they did with the SE's and recreate most of if not all of the visual effects again. So if you did that then you probably would recreate the CGI VFX again as well.

As I've said before I find it incredibly unlikely that the real OOT will ever come out. Instead it will be another SE where even if they make a version that looks like the theatrical cuts it really won't be but will be scans of the original elements now digitally composited as opposed to the optical recompositing done in the 90's.

I think it already has and until everyone has much larger than IMAX sized screens at home then the K argument is a very questionable one.

 

The 2011 BluRay is the 2004 master with the additional changes. They are based off the same restoration, and it was botched. The same issues show up, the lightsaber colors are wrong, blacks are crushed and nothing looks good. Again, you have the technicolor print of Star Wars which is fade free. They used it in 1997 to grade the film for the rerelease and it looked so much better than the blu-rays/DVDs.

I am ok with film grain. I don't think it should be digitally removed, but accepted as a part of the medium. Otherwise you risk going too far and getting what happened with Predator on bluray where everyone looked like a mannequin.

As for the OT never looking as good as the PT, you are letting your PT fanboy bias seep through again. 35mm film is better than the digital Lucas used for AOTC and ROTS, they aren't even 2K, just 1080p. But even so, doing a 4K restoration on Star Wars will give you a better picture even in only 2K or blu-ray. 4K really is the standard for modern film restoration, and the 2004 job was 1080p, which was outdated at the time. Again George Lucas didn't care, because it was good enough for the films he is ashamed about. It must hurt when people still go on about the theatrical cuts while his precious PT goes through the critical ringer.

I don't hate all CGI, I hate CGI added to a 38 year old film because it never blended in with the live action well. Combine that with stupid changes that have subtracted from the reputation of the film and franchise as a whole.

Once the OOT is properly released with a 4K restoration, then you can love your 2011 blu-rays until the end of time. I'm sure there will be a ton of cheap copies in used movie stores when people realize they can get the better version. Everyone wins.

 

The current price for the complete BR pack is $90 USD, and for a BR pack with 6 movies and 3 bonus discs, I don't see the price depreciating much over time

Oh yeah, and opinion yada yada whatnot, it's getting tiresome having to continually point out that such a thing exists

 

That's basically what everyone is doing, Jon. Though, yes, some language could be better handled.

 

OK, time for everyone to calm down a bit.

lovelikewinter - please leave any antagonistic comments about 'PT crap', 'PT fanboys' and the like out of here. Thanks

 

Despite all the sound and fury, there really aren't that many added special effects in the Special Editions. The new effects may not be 4K, and they may stand out a little bit on a 4K presentation for eagle-eyed viewers who are really paying attention...but 1080p is really nothing to sneeze at. That's Blu-ray resolution, and pretty much everyone seems to agree that the resolution on Blu-rays is fantastic for a home viewing presentation format.

It won't be a big deal. They won't need to re-do the new special effects from scratch. If they're releasing 4K versions of the movies, that will at least include the 2011 versions, in all their controversial glory. I have a hard time believing otherwise.

 

The fact that some people actually think the original versions shouldn't be restored makes me feel sick. If you think the Special Special Editions are better, that's absolutely fine. I think a lot of the restored and redone effects look superior myself. But the originals should be preserved for historical purposes. The effects, regardless of how they look now (and with the exceptions of a handful of shots, I think they hold up damn well), were simply groundbreaking at the time, artifacts and all, and paved the way for everything we see today. Just as important, millions of people grew up watching them that way and want to experience them as they remember, and not sit through something that they hate. It isn't fair.

Myself, I grew up watching the '97 SEs and, with the exception of the stupid things that most people complain about (Greedo, Jabba in ANH, Jedi Rocks, etc) I really don't mind the changes - I actually like most of them. The only 2004 changes that bugged me were Temuera Morrison as Boba and Hayden in ROTJ, but I could live with them - the rest I liked. Despite those blunders, they would probably be my go-to version to watch were it not for A. The injustice of the originals not being preserved, and even more importantly, the vomit-inducing color timing. Blue EVERYWHERE, crushed blacks, pinks instead of red - it hurts my eyes, and looks so unnatural and inaccurate that it's a travesty.

Ideally, we should get the 2004 versions with proper color timing (all of the Blu-ray changes that weren't fixes were bull in my opinion) and the properly restored originals. Because why not make everyone happy? It wouldn't end the fighting over which is better, but at least we can all watch the versions we enjoy.

And this will be my final word on the subject forever.

 

OK .I like pretty much all the changes & the OOT.
(George Lucas has every right to do them)
They vastly improved the movies and connected them with Episodes I,II &III.
Take a look at this Dug in the Jabba's Palace for the Blu-ray release.(Top 2004 &Bottom 2011)

Here only a CGI dug has been added but it really is a nice tiny change and connects it to TPM and AOTC .
Either way if not for the changes the Victory Celebration wouldn't be so epic IMO.
(Yet I still like Yub Nub,but it's cheesy)
Oh and I can fully understand why Hayden was added and it MAKES sense.