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Changing the story

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by saltydog6423, Aug 14, 2009.

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  1. Darthbane2007

    Darthbane2007 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 31, 2007
    ESB changed the story of Star Wars in my opinion.
     
  2. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That's basically a fact.
     
  3. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    The PT did not inherently have to be the way George Lucas made it, but that's something of a non-sequitir (on multiple levels). I understand the theoretical ground you're arguing from, but I also stand apart with some degree of confusion.

    See above. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't presume the way that the prequels are now is the way that they always had to be; it's simply that they turned out a certain way and that's a way that seems congruent, to me.

    Your alternate proposal clarifies things, a little. True, the PT could easily have been any number of other things, one of which you've broadly outlined. But I still wonder if something is being missed here. In 1983, the same year that ROTJ was released and the OT was (more or less) completed, GL said that the prequel trilogy would be "Machiavellian", rooted in "mystery" and "plotting", and "[would] not be as much of an action adventure", a pretty striking definition he may have been serious about for some time, if the preamble of the original movie's novelization and the morsels of political dialogue that made it into the first half of the original movie are anything to go by (significantly, before the Empire trots out its terrible new weapon and destroys a planet, putting an end to even the illusion of political appeasement or negotiation). Then you have the emphasis on Darth Vader's face in the OT movies (arguably, the face being the most expressive, recognizable and human of any visual construct in any film ever made), visually implying greater viewer connection and empathy with Anakin Skywalker in each subsequent film (for clarity: no face in ANH, a back-of-the-head tease in TESB, his full visage in ROTJ [according to production order and the manner in which the story of Darth Vader is, and was, revealed, of course]). I think these two elements practically impelled Lucas to paint on an enlarged canvas for the preceding-yet-succeeding episodes of the saga; he needed the time and space to use suitably big (and small) brush strokes to conjoin these grand, portentous details, and to do his original manifesto justice.

    That's not to say that Lucas had every detail planned out -- far from it. Nor is it to say that the style and focus of the PT had to be one way and one way only. But I respect authorial intent (and I certainly respect the product of that intent) in this area. I think it's edifying to know that Lucas had a broad concept in mind and stuck to it, even if all the details had yet to be filled in. The man is accused of flip-flopping so much (not all of it unfounded, but often out of context, I feel) that it's nice to know he had big designs on the PT from some of the earliest days, rather than deciding to gussy up and flounce up the world of SW once, and only once, the acclaim went
     
  4. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    How presumptuous and condescending of you.

    Do you really believe in the dichotomy you've presented, in which 'familiar' and 'interesting' are mutually exclusive? The Godfather Part II is familiar as hell, but it's by no means what I'd call uninteresting. Aliens is in an entirely different genre of movie from its predecessor (one is horror, the other action), but it works because the 'world' of the film is believably the same in both films.

    It's not 'clinginess' to say that the cinematic world of the PT feels, even at the end of RotS, not at all like the cinematic world of the OT. It's like watching an entirely different series of films.

    The great irony for me is that, in fleshing out the back-story of the OT, Lucas ended up needing to create an all-new back-story for the PT, and now there are I think more confusing questions about the SW universe than there were before the PT was created. We learn pretty much all we need to know about Anakin's/Obi-Wan's back-story from the OT itself. On the other hand, the PT raises (and never resolves) a bunch of questions on issues like the origin of Anakin's birth and what the hell the deal was with Sifo-Dyas and/or the clones. These are pretty relevant questions concerning the unfolding of events.
     
  5. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    i'm with you there. for me there's no divide between simply PT and OT. the only divide I can see is between ANH and the rest of the films, and that's a shift that began way back in 1978.
     
  6. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    Well if you believe Shmi's story, Anakin must be created by the midi-chlorians, and therefore the force. Whether that was a natural occurrence or manipulation is the only question - but its deliberately ambiguous. It can be whichever you want, really. Either is possible. my interpretation is that he fulfils the prophecy - therefore it was natural. If it was manipulated it was not by the force's will and therefore he would not be the true chosen one, which we realise him to be in ROTJ - which is interesting as I find it to be the case that many people who argue Luke to be the real chosen one definitely believe the sith created Anakin. this isn't without validation of course and there is a great attempt during the PT to suggest that even though it seems nailed-on, Anakin may not be the chosen one - "if the prophecy is true" - "is he not to destroy the sith?" - "it was said that you would destroy the sith, not join them" - "the chosen one the boy may be" "a prophecy that could have been misread" - "its possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians" "he could influence the midi-chlorians to create life". from a writing perspective though, these are all merely hints to add suspense and question what we believe. if we know for certain watching the films in order that anakin is definitely the chosen it means we already know the outcome. it is only right some uncertainty is added to the mix to keep the tension maintained. the only confusion, i believe, surrounding his birth is down to a loose, deliberately open-ended and suggestive remark by palpatine (a known liar and schemer) which is included for the reasons i state above. for me, the question should not be answered in the PT as it is answered in ROTJ. personally i enjoy these subtleties and think it makes the films richer in content. banging things over peoples heads is not always the best form of storytelling. to say they are unresolved is not valid criticism as they are perfectly resolvable to anyone who seeks such a resolution - its simply a question of what you want to believe. there's no truth - its a story. its why the ending of a film like Before Sunset or Cast Away works so well - neither situation is resolved and we can make our own minds up about the true nature of events based on our own ideals and philosophies.

    as for the clones? i think the only resolution required was left open for an unused, potential twist - from whats left i thought it got well enough explained in AOTC. dooku/tyranus is head of the seperatists, assigned by palpatine to create an opposition to the republic. dooku/tyranus is also in charge of the clone army's creation -recruiting fett, then placing the order with the Kaminoans under the guise of the recently deceased (or soon to be deceased) jedi Sifo-Dyas - whom he would have known and had access to from his days in the Jedi Order (how and when he would also have erased Kamino from the archives). i'm sure lucas played with various versions of that - but is there any other conclusion based on what we hear and see on screen? have i missed something?
     
  7. Darthbane2007

    Darthbane2007 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 31, 2007
    Essentially. Back when there was only ANH:

    Anakin and Vader were essentially 2 different people
    Luke and Leia weren't brother and sister, so there was no incest
    The clone wars were only mentioned a few times
    There was no Lando
    Boba Fett/Mandolorians were not the overrated mercaneries the EU has made them out to be

    ANH as a standalone movie ( Which it was intended to be) works pretty well.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Lucas has said otherwise, that's why Sith creation remains a possibility. The official position as it stands now is that Anakin was the Chosen One, while it's up to the audience to decide whether or not he was created by the Sith.

    That's the thing about number lines. They have no left or right endpoint.
     
  9. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

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    May 26, 2005
    no that was my interpretation - most of my post was. i should have added "for me, if it was manipulated it was not by the force's will and therefore he would not be the true chosen one." thats, however personal, valid interpretation i feel. and yes, i agree that the official position is that is up to the audience to decide - i think i stated that already. its more down to what you want to believe.
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    My point was that he is canonically the Chosen One in either case.
     
  11. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    Considering Vader/Anakin's major impact upon the OT - especially in ESB and ROTJ - I really have no problems that the entire saga shifted from Luke to Anakin. And if I must be brutally honest, I find Anakin's personal journey a lot more intersting.


    ESB changed the story of Star Wars in my opinion.


    You have a very good point. It was ESB that changed the nature of the saga, not the PT. It was ESB that first brought Anakin Skywalker's story to the forefront. and it was ESB that introduced a certain darkness - or should I say - ambiguity into the saga. Perhaps this is why I tend to view ANH as a bit archaic in compare to the other five movies.
     
  12. Gary_Buchenara

    Gary_Buchenara Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Apr 29, 2009
    ESB did change the nature of the saga, but Luke's story remained very much at the forefront throughout the OT.
     
  13. Grand_Moff_Jawa

    Grand_Moff_Jawa Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 31, 2001
    Why not go back and tell ALL the main character's back-stories?

    If we can see Vader's beginnings, why not Leia's, or Han's (which would be much more interesting than Vader, in my opinion) or Lando's? What did Artoo do before we see him in Episode 1?

    My point is that of all the main characters we see throughout the OT, picking Vader for the prequels would have worked better if his origins were more interesting. Did anyone else find the fall of Anakin boring?
     
  14. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Funny, because many have said that too many OT characters get backstories that are "forced" into the PT. I don't generally agree with that feeling, but I see their point.

    Regarding Leia; we see her very beginning. :p Based on who we see her go to live with (Bail and his wife), her "occupation" later makes perfect sense; so the backstory is clearly implied. Regarding Han and Lando... well, those are two of the only main OT characters that didn't get backstories. I agree that some of Han's story would be interesting to see, but too much attention paid to his youth, his meeting Chewbacca, his winning the Falcon from Lando, etc. could feel like overkill. And indeed, many of his fans would no doubt have been upset with how his backstory was portrayed. Regarding R2-D2, I just got the impression that before he fixed the shields on that Naboo cruiser, he was pretty much "just another astromech droid". So we saw him separate himself from the pack there, and begin his journey to really become a hero among droids.

    I also just don't find the fall of Anakin to make for a boring story at all. I can't see how the Saga would have felt complete if the PT had not focused (for the most part) on Anakin and Obi-Wan... the PT would not have flowed properly into the OT, with the OT featuring Luke as the main character of that half of the story.
     
  15. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    Based on who we see her go to live with (Bail and his wife), her "occupation" later makes perfect sense; so the backstory is clearly implied. Regarding Han and Lando... well, those are two of the only main OT characters that didn't get backstories. I agree that some of Han's story would be interesting to see, but too much attention paid to his youth, his meeting Chewbacca, his winning the Falcon from Lando, etc. could feel like overkill.


    I agree. I couldn't see how Han or Lando could be part of the PT. Neither of them were old enough to participate in the Clone Wars. And the story about how the Falcon passed from Lando to Han, happened during the years between the two trilogies. And that had been established by previous STAR WARS novels.
     
  16. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2006
    But the characters don't understand Anakin's birth so how can they tell the audience about Anakin's birth?

    Anakin is just a demigod. He's half god and half mortal. You act as if you never read any Greek, Roman, Irish, Hebrew, or Hindu mythology? Lucas isn't reinventing storytelling here. He's just telling an old myth to a modern audience. Anakin is just a demigod. Why is this so hard to grasp? That's why Darth Vader was going to be more powerful than any other Force user per Darth Sidious. The reason Anakin/Vader was going to be so powerful is because that's what demigods do. They're more powerful than regular people because they're more than just mortal. You ever hear of Hercules?

    Sifo-Dyas never needed to be explained because it never mattered. All that matters is that you understand Star Wars is a morality play, and once you understand that then you understand that all the characters must choose a godly life over one of evil. The Jedi are being tested when they find the clones. They fail the test and that's why they die. That's the deal with the clones. All the audience has to understand is that Lama-Su and Tawn-We believe that the Jedi own the clones because the clones were ordered by a fellow Jedi named Syfo-Dyas, but other than that it doesn't matter who Syfo-Dyas was or why he ordered the clones. That's why Lucas never bothered elaborating on Syfo-Dyas.

     
  17. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

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    Dec 17, 2000
    So the Force is a living entity, capable of knocking up helpless slave women? And here all this time I was thinking of it as more of an energy field created by living things. If only there was a line in one of the movies somewhere that supported one of our interpretations so we'd know who's right...

    See, the trick about a morality play is that the moral has to actually be made pretty clear, usually either by a character who realizes the moral in front of us, or a narrator who explains the moral. "The clones are a test" has no factual basis in the film; it's pure extrapolation on your part.

    And yes, Sifo-Dyas DOES matter. Because Obi-Wan's half of AotC is a detective story. If you can interpret Anakin as a Greek demigod, then surely you can see such a blatant riff on the mystery genre. And the thing about mysteries is, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO FIND OUT THE ANSWER TO THE MYSTERY QUESTION. That's why they're called 'whodunits'. The whole POINT of such a story is solving the mystery. AotC is like an Agatha Christie book that ends without revealing who the killer was.

     
  18. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 26, 2005
    But it is solved.

    Fett: I was recruited by a man called Tyranus...

    Sidious (to Dooku): Welcome home, Lord Tyranus.


    knowing Dooku's background as a Jedi its quite apparent he used the identity of Sifo-Dyas (who he either knew to have died recently or perhaps someone he arranged the death of) to begin the clone army and then form the separatist army under his former identity Dooku - helping Palpatine/Sidious manipulate the start of war. once we know that Tyranus is Dooku and that he is playing both sides, isnt it obvious? I like the way its reveal is played out. it doesnt bash the viewer over the head and is very much in keeping with the mystery tone of the film.

    its all revealed to a satisfactory fashion by the end of AOTC for me. as ive said before, the only other revelations that would have occurred on the subject in episode 3 would most likely have been twists to this natural perception (perhaps even further exposition that Sifo-Dyas was forced into the order and then killed by Dooku or Sidious - but it all amounts to the same thing). as the story stands, the clones being ordered by Dooku under the guise of Sifo-Dyas is valid reasoning, and as we get no further reasoning, its the one we should surely settle with, no?
     
  19. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    I agree that ESB did change the story in some ways, the empire survived, Obi-Wan was not the last jedi.
    Where I disagree is with the notion that Vader's story is moved to the forefront.
    Both ESB and RotJ are still primarily Luke's story, he is the main character, the main protagonist, it is him the story is about.

    That Vader is given more depth to his character and not just a simple black hat villain does not make him the main character. He remains an antagonist, in ESB he is the primary one after having a somewhat secondary role in ANH.
    But what this does is mostly uping the ante for Luke.
    Luke started on a quest to become a Jedi in ANH, there was also some unfinished buisness with him and Vader. Both from Vader murdering his father and Vader killing Obi-Wan, a father figure. So a confrontation between them would come but by making Vader Luke's father, Luke is faced with a much harder task.

    If Vader had been just a jedi traitor that killed his father then there is not much doubt in Luke's mind as to what he should do. But if Vader IS his father then this becomes much harder. Vader is no longer just an evil to smite, he is Luke's father.

    In closing, the OT is and always was Luke's story, his journey to become a jedi knight. In the process he also confronts and saves his father from evil but that is a side issue, not the main story.

    Regards
    Nordom

     
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