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Lit Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil? Or perhaps Chaotic Good? Hypocrisy of the Sith

Discussion in 'Literature' started by jedi_samuel, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. jedi_samuel

    jedi_samuel Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2014
    I always thought of pure evil as an unrelenting, unrepenting force of chaos, like the Joker in The Dark Knight. Someone who just wants to watch the world burn.

    It turns out that many Sith Lords actually want to "make the galaxy a better place" -- they just have very questionable methods of doing so. Not that you can't be evil this way, of course you can have good intentions but kill millions of people, and that's really bad.

    I guess I've just been underwhelmed by the evilness of most Sith Lords I've read about. I think truly evil Sith lords would not feel pain or even care about themselves, and definitely not anyone else. They just want to destroy. To me, this is the evilest of the evil, and I can't even think of a sith lord who was there all the way. I think Christopher Nolan's Joker was more evil than any Sith I've read about.
     
  2. Lanoree

    Lanoree Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2015
    This is just my thinking on the matter but I think there are two kinds of Sith lords: those who want chaos, as you talk about and those who want power. While I think a Sith lord who promoted this idea of pure chaos and followed it would be a fascinating character I think it boils down to self interest and personal ambition. It is difficult for anyone to thrive in chaos and if one wants power you have to establish some kind of order, rules and a system in order to rule over others and achieve certain goals. I think many Sith prefer the latter because of personal reasons of ambition and power whereas chaos might not just sweep away their enemies but them also and any power base and legacy they want to leave behind.
     
  3. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Oh, okay. That's....a perspective, I guess.

    Who said Sith are supposed to be pure evil? Why is the idea of Sith Lords wanting to make the galaxy a better place at all a bad thing?

    How are the Sith hypocritical? They never claim to be pure evil, they certainly don't claim to be Chaotic Evil on the D&D alignment, so how is it hypocritical of them?

    Why did you have this high expectation of pure evil from Sith Lords? Honestly, I just don't know where your head is at, I'm not sure where you're getting this mindset from.

    Why do you even care about this distinction of being truly evil?

    Why is the Joker at all relevant? Why is he even in your head when it comes to this topic?

    And lastly, I think the entire D&D alignment thing is a terrible detriment to actual storytelling, and I'd like it to have no place in Star Wars whatsoever.
     
  4. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Yeah. There certainly are a lot of Sith that are mustache-twirlingly eeeeevil, but even they aren't just consciously setting out to try to be evil for evil's sake.

    And D&D alignments, while they get a bad rep they don't entirely deserve, really do have no place outside D&D. I have no idea why you're bringing them up.
     
  5. Praenomen Cognomen

    Praenomen Cognomen Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Forget alignment.

    Selfishness is the key.

    It's like the principles of LaVeyan Satanism, Randian objectivism, etc... the general idea of putting oneself first. Frankly, it asks a very important question: Is selfishness inherently evil?

    There's an old moral puzzle you might find interesting: A mother carries a child alone through the wilderness. She teaches him to walk, to hunt, to survive---absolutely nothing metaphysical---and then she dies. He grows into a man, he walks, he hunts, he survives, and he never encounters another human being in his entire life. So, tell me: Is he a good man, or is he a bad man?

    Then, if you think of it in old-world terms of "sin," there are sins of commission, and sins of omission. A sin of commission is to be the Joker, and to set a plot into motion which could result in a boat full of people exploding---obviously evil. A sin of omission is to be one background extra on that boat, capable of making a difference but not doing it---whether out of fear, or by rationalizing that the prisoners on the other boat should die---but while both could be sins, are both evil, or is only that rationalization evil? Is neither evil as long as the rationalization is genuinely ignorant? Where's the line where ignorance turns into evil? Where's the line where fear turns into evil, for that matter? And you know, an interesting Sith concept is the idea of fear as a virtue. It seems so antithetical to the Sith struggle for power, but think of it this way: Fear can manifest itself as self-preservation instinct. Self-preservation instinct can make someone capable of selfish acts without conscience, and those acts can allow someone to survive when others don't.

    But all those factors come into play along the way; in the beginning, there is no evil. Evil has no inherent purpose; it's a byproduct.
     
  6. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    I don't think Sith are evil or Jedi are good. All are questionable, all are grey. It is motive and action that matter.
     
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  7. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    It's possible to be far more evil than the Joker. The Joker wasn't prejudiced and he was a local threat. Never does the Joker attempt to commit genocide or expand his territory.
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't really distinguish. Evil behavior is evil behavior, and there is nothing about "good intentions" that makes genocide any more palatable.

    I suppose "just wanting to watch the world burn" for LOLz is a more evil intention than "wanting to make the world a better place," but when the end result is the mass murder of innocent people, does a better intention make the mass murder victims come back to life?

    I find a character who commits evil for personal gain or "good intentions" more interesting than one who just wants to do evil **** for the hell of it, but not because the "good intentions" make the villain "less evil".
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    And Jedi motives tend to be "helping others - the innocent civilians of the Republic" whereas Sith motives tend to be "helping self - increasing personal and political power to the point of invincibility, to satisfy one's personal ego".

    Jedi actions tend to be "risking one's own life, making personal sacrifices, etc. to help strangers in trouble" whereas Sith actions tend to be "cause harm to many people to further one's cause".
     
  10. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Cracian_Thumper

    Cracian_Thumper Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2015
    From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!

    *ducks*
     
  12. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    What's a duck?
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Cronal's a bit like that in some respects:

    http://www.starwars.com/news/the-imperial-warlords-despoilers-of-an-empire-part-3

    Or, for a more "Sith" and less "Dark Adept" example, there's Odion and Nihilus

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Odion

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Nihilus
     
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  14. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Now the EU is non-canon, we might never again know the answer. :(
     
  15. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Disney own Star Wars, The Force Awakens is directed by J.J. Abrams, J.J. Abrams co-created Fringe, Fringe starred Joshua Jackson, Joshua Jackson portrayed Charlie Conway in The Mighty Ducks, which Disney owns.

    The circle is now complete and it's ducks all the way 'round.
     
  16. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    So all this time we've been blaming Mickey when Donald was the real culprit all along... [​IMG]
     
  17. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    I'd say self-centeredness rather than selfishness. The Sith are not talking about an ideal of the indivindual. Let us not forget that the ethic of reciprocity relies on an appeal to selfishness, and that cooperation does not require selfless motives. The Sith position in its Rule of Two form is more like an eschatologically-minded solipsism of power -- only power exists, and the best Sith will be all-powerful.
     
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  18. Mother_Talzin

    Mother_Talzin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2014
    I believe Lucas intended Sidious to be the personification of evil, he even describes him as the devil in a ROTS featurette. The same is not true of all Sith though. Lucas boils it down in this quote, "nobody who's evil thinks of themselves as evil, they always believe they're doing good, even though they're not. " Sidious is inherently evil, there is no redemption for him, as there has been for other Sith. Any motivation for a 'better galaxy' is rooted in a self-centered belief that his domination is necessary to bring order to chaos. He is the antagonist for this very chaos, which makes his conquest hypocritical.
     
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  19. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    I'd say "chaos" for Palpatine is the condition of everything not being under his direct control.
     
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  20. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Hm. I am suddenly reminded that, "canonically speaking", the only Sith we know to have rejected the dark side is Darth Vader.

    I wonder if the NU will give us a history in which he was also the first to do so.
     
  21. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Probably.

    Until it later gives us one where he wasn't.

    :p
     
  22. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    If that's how you and most others see it, that's fine, IL. I don't. To me, Jedi are more selfish than Sith.
     
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  23. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Can you explain why you see the jedi as more selfish than the sith?
     
  24. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Certainly, Gamiel. Thanks for asking: The main reason I see Jedi as more selfish than Sith is because they are hypercritical regarding using deception whenever it suits them but they never correct their own misuses while always saying 'deception way of Sith'. Not strictly it isn't. If it's wrong to deceive and lie it is wrong regardless who or what the circumstance is. They likewise lie to themselves and others that emotions and attachment are bad/evil when they aren't. It's down to handling if good or ill comes from it. It's not inherent. I get tired o Jedi saying one thing and doing the utter opposite.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Good luck with that.

    "Unselfish Sith" is an oxymoron.

    I'd love to see the tally sheet in which "unselfish acts by Jedi" are tallied in the left hand column and "unselfish acts by Sith" are tallied in the right hand column, with the right-hand column actually being longer. I doubt will get any version of that though, much less a credible one.

    ETA: Alrighty then. A Jedi not subscribing to the hyper romanticized view that the world would be a better place if we just all ran freeeeeee with every emotion we have is...selfish?

    Asking people to maintain emotional control and use the part of their brains that governs thinking is...selfish?

    Telling Anakin Skywalker that it's perfectly OK to murder his surrogate family because after all, he was angry, is...selfish?

    I'd say the opposite. It's extremely selfish to hold the viewpoint that one's feelings have some sort of top priority in galactic affairs, and that any behavior can be justified using "But I FELT this way so I NEEDED to do this!"
     
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