characterization inconsistencies

First, I did a search and didn't find anything to related directly to what I have to say.

I watched Episode 5 last night after not having seen the original trilogy in 7 years. After seeing ROTS there are so many glaring problems that the PT has with this one movie alone that it's ridiculous. Here are some that I remember:

-Obi Wan saying that Yoda instructed him. I know that this has been discussed before, and this line isn't actually much of a problem because he never actually said that Yoda was his direct master, EP2 shows Yoda training younglings, and Qui-Gon is dead, so he can't send him to him. The problem is his diaglogue on Dagobah. Why does he say to Yoda "Was I any different?" in response to Luke having too much anger. Additionally, at the end of the scene Yoda says "no, there is another." Well, duh, obviously Obi Wan knows that. ROTS gives the impression that Yoda and ObiWan are planning to use Luke and Lei when Yoda says that they will dissapeaar until the "time is right."

-I know I just said that Qui-Gon is dead, but according to ROTS, he knows how to be a ghost too. So where is he? Why didn't he appear to help in the training of Luke. They would never be in that mess if not for Qui-Gon, so where the heck is he?

-Vader's characterization causes me the most confusion. As I understand it, Vader and Anakin are different people, hence why they refer to Anakin as someone else. But I can't seem to understand why he would tell Luke that he is his father. That clearly shows that there is still some Anakin in him. But if that is true, then why doesn't he sense his kids, and why doesn't he show any surprise when the emporer tells him that "anakin's" kids are alive?

-Bobba Fett is just another bounty hunter in this movie. Wasn't his father the person who was used to create the army that would eventually become the stormtroopers? Their interaction doesn't make sense.

-R2 didn't have his memory erased and so he knows everything that is happening. So when Luke came to Dagobah, why didn't he start bleeping and honking when Yoda showed up. Obviously he knows who Yoda is.

 

Why does he say to Yoda "Was I any different?" in response to Luke having too much anger....

We do not know what Obi Wan was like when he was younger (not counting any EU books, which I have not read). He may have been very much like Anakin.


I know I just said that Qui-Gon is dead, but according to ROTS, he knows how to be a ghost too. So where is he? ... where the heck is he?

Liam Neeson turned down the offer to epear in ep3.


Bobba Fett is just another bounty hunter in this movie. Wasn't his father the person who was used to create the army that would eventually become the stormtroopers? Their interaction doesn't make sense.

It is not 100% verified (at least from what I know) that the stormies in the OT are clones. They have different hieght (for example). I think it's safe to assume that the Empire used regular Joe's after the PT. Why use money to create clones when you can use the people under your control. Other than that, why does their interaction not make sense?

 

-Obi Wan saying that Yoda instructed him. I know that this has been discussed before, and this line isn't actually much of a problem because he never actually said that Yoda was his direct master, EP2 shows Yoda training younglings, and Qui-Gon is dead, so he can't send him to him. The problem is his diaglogue on Dagobah. Why does he say to Yoda "Was I any different?" in response to Luke having too much anger. Additionally, at the end of the scene Yoda says "no, there is another." Well, duh, obviously Obi Wan knows that. ROTS gives the impression that Yoda and ObiWan are planning to use Luke and Lei when Yoda says that they will dissapeaar until the "time is right."

I don't think that Obi-Wan thought Leia could do it.

-I know I just said that Qui-Gon is dead, but according to ROTS, he knows how to be a ghost too. So where is he? Why didn't he appear to help in the training of Luke. They would never be in that mess if not for Qui-Gon, so where the heck is he?

Well the fact that he probably wasn't even created yet is a problem, and no he isn't going to be inserted into the OT.

-Vader's characterization causes me the most confusion. As I understand it, Vader and Anakin are different people, hence why they refer to Anakin as someone else. But I can't seem to understand why he would tell Luke that he is his father. That clearly shows that there is still some Anakin in him. But if that is true, then why doesn't he sense his kids, and why doesn't he show any surprise when the emporer tells him that "anakin's" kids are alive?

He told Luke so he could convert him to the darkside. He was hoping Luke would get mad and/or agry so it would be easier to turn him. As for Vader not acting suprised when the Emp told him about Luke, Vader allready knew about Luke at the beginning of Empire, he was trying to convince the Emp that he didn't know so the Emp wouldn't suspect him of trying to use Luke to kill him.

-Bobba Fett is just another bounty hunter in this movie. Wasn't his father the person who was used to create the army that would eventually become the stormtroopers? Their interaction doesn't make sense.

I don't really think it matters what his dad did. He controls his own destiny.

-R2 didn't have his memory erased and so he knows everything that is happening. So when Luke came to Dagobah, why didn't he start bleeping and honking when Yoda showed up. Obviously he knows who Yoda is.

Maybe he knew Yoda was training him, or maybe he is programmed not to say anything about the past.

Just my 2 cents.

 

:::So when Luke came to Dagobah, why didn't he start bleeping and honking when Yoda showed up. Obviously he knows who Yoda is.

Artoo did a lot of bleeping and honking in the Yoda intro scene in TESB. Luke couldn't understand any of it. We don't know what R2 was trying to tell Luke in that scene, either. So, it all up to our interpretaion, our "point of view."

To me, R2 seems agitated, and I don't know for sure, but now that I look at the scene through my ROTS-goggles, I don't think it's *just* because Yoda is rummaging through all of Luke's stuff.

I'm going to check it out again, and see for sure.

 

<<Why does he say to Yoda "Was I any different?" in response to Luke having too much anger.>>

Look, we've never seen Obi-Wan before the age of 25. And considering how he fights at that age, it displays a measure of impetuousness.

<<I know I just said that Qui-Gon is dead, but according to ROTS, he knows how to be a ghost too. So where is he? Why didn't he appear to help in the training of Luke. They would never be in that mess if not for Qui-Gon, so where the heck is he?>>

The EU says that even force ghosts fade after a matter of time--you can't retain identity in the Void forever.

<<ut if that is true, then why doesn't he sense his kids, and why doesn't he show any surprise when the emporer tells him that "anakin's" kids are alive?>>

Just because a sliver of him is left doesn't mean that sliver would automatically be able to detect children you thought were dead from half a galaxy away. He thinks the kids are dead because he assumes they went with Padme, who the Emperor told him he killed.

<<Bobba Fett is just another bounty hunter in this movie. Wasn't his father the person who was used to create the army that would eventually become the stormtroopers? Their interaction doesn't make sense.>>

BoBa Fett is a background character that people grew to like so much that GL had basically no choice but to reference him in the PT. Besides, his dad was a bounty hunter and he was trained from BIRTH to be a bounty hunter.

And the dude who manages to nick Han friggin' Solo ain't "just another bounty hunter."

 

The conclusion that I get from these posts is that GL just didn't care about writing the story to make sense. He very easily could have avoided these inconsistencies if he wrote the PT to mesh better with the OT.

 

Um...but haven't they just demonstrated that it works fine?

 

Not really, a lot of these explanations, like maybe R2 was programmed not to alert Luke when he was near Yoda, are huge stretches of logic.

For a series this popular and planned out, I would at least expect little things like these to make sense.

 

-Why does he say to Yoda "Was I any different?" in response to Luke having too much anger.

Obi-Wan's back story in the EU is very much a boy full of anger who also failed entry to the Jedi Order several times.

Also observe Obi-Wan's torn allegiences in Episode I as well as they way he flips out Darth Maul. Definitely someone who's had to learn to keep his temper in control.

Additionally, at the end of the scene Yoda says "no, there is another." Well, duh, obviously Obi Wan knows that. ROTS gives the impression that Yoda and ObiWan are planning to use Luke and Lei when Yoda says that they will dissapeaar until the "time is right."

Luke is already training up to be a Jedi, Leia hasn't even begun. As far as Obi-Wan is concerned Luke will have to take the brunt of the job. ALSO Yoda says "time is right", not Obi Wan, so of course Yoda's schemings are not fully revealed to Obi Wan.

AND I'm of the camp who feels that the "other" is NOT Leia, but Anakin himself.

I know I just said that Qui-Gon is dead, but according to ROTS, he knows how to be a ghost too. So where is he? Why didn't he appear to help in the training of Luke. They would never be in that mess if not for Qui-Gon, so where the heck is he?

EU - Force Ghosts can only appear over a short duration of time before they have to dassipate back into the living Force.

Non-EU - What exactly was Qui-Gon supposed to DO had he been able to come back??? He has no r/ship with Luke, what would he do? Talk smack to Obi-Wan, reminisce old times and play yatze? Qui-Gon had no reason or place to come back at all.

-Vader's characterization causes me the most confusion. As I understand it, Vader and Anakin are different people, hence why they refer to Anakin as someone else.

I think you take things a little bit too literally. Vader and Anakin are not two minds or two personalities, they are two sides to the same whole. They are the same person. Vader is NOT surprised when the Emperor mentions his kids because he's been hunting Luke already and knows about him (rewatch ESB - Vader's line: "THAT is it. The rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them.") Vader is the evil-side of Anakin...he is EVIL Anakin. Just as we all have a dark and evil side to us - the side that is greedy or violent or fearful and we struggle to control it.

-Bobba Fett is just another bounty hunter in this movie. Wasn't his father the person who was used to create the army that would eventually become the stormtroopers? Their interaction doesn't make sense.

This phrase doesn't make any sense. What exactly are you asking?

-R2 didn't have his memory erased and so he knows everything that is happening. So when Luke came to Dagobah, why didn't he start bleeping and honking when Yoda showed up. Obviously he knows who Yoda is.

Why should he? He's a droid and he has had no interaction whatsoever with Yoda until now. Watch the prequels and name me a scene where Yoda talks to Artoo or the two are even introduced.

 

Why should he? He's a droid and he has had no interaction whatsoever with Yoda until now. Watch the prequels and name me a scene where Yoda talks to Artoo or the two are even introduced.

exactly. i think the only time they're in the same scene together is at the end of ROTS when Padme is giving birth. and for all R2 knew Yoda was just some frog monster that was bugging everyone. and on Dagobah R2 has finally had enough of his shenanigans.

 

I thought Qui-Gon didn't come back because he wasn't able to appear as a ghost. I mean, he had no time to prepare like Obi-Wan and Yoda, so he could only barely hang on to his voice in the "void."

I don't know/care what the EU has to say, but this seems like a pretty obvious interpretation to me.

 

^^ exactly. drumstick is right

 

It is possible that Artoo did recognize Yoda and wanted Luke to get the Hell off Dagobah knowing full well what happened to his last Skywalker pal. This could also explain why Artoo wanted nothing to do with Luke when they first meet in ANH. He wanted away from Luke and to desperately get to Obi-wan. Artoo was witness to everything.