Lit "Choose. And act." Vergere, Gardening, and Jacen vs. JINO

By the way, the explanation for the Force talking to Jacen throughout the NJO that we get in The Unifying Force was that it was the Ghost of Anakin Skywalker talking to him the whole time. Seriously. I just double checked.

 

why is that a problem

 

I forget, how do we know this?

Can you explain in more detail how the text supports this interpretation

Tbh I don't remember moral guidance coming up, I just remember Jacen zapping Vergere and claiming the dark side made him do it, and then Vergere going lol no that's dumb.

Well you never know.

Didn't it only happen one other time, in Balance Point?

Also

 

Yeah I've never understood why people thought that Jacen and Vergere reached the Jedi temple after Luke and Nyax had. Traitor takes place across Dark Journey, Rebel Dream, and Rebel Stand. I don't remember anything definitively putting any sort of timeline together that would suggest they got there after Nyax died there; people just assumed it based on order of publication.

 

YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: The Force. It has returned from the netherworld of the Force. And is now immortal.

OBI-WAN: Do what now?

So did you think I was saying they were the same thing? The whole point is that they're different things, and both are threats, not "only" the one.

That's the OT you're talking about! I've heard it's popular in some circles.

 

Arawn_Fenn

have you ever convinced anyone to change their mind

I have to admit I admire your sisyphean effort.

 

I'm serious, I've really heard that.

 

Why is the Anakin Ghost a problem? Because it doesn't make sense. Sure, Obi-Wan used his Ghost energy a lot in the movies, so he faded out pretty quick...or something like that. The explanation for why he never shows up after the first Thrawn book always seemed a bit enigmatic to me. But still, assuming that makes sense, we still have two major ghosts wondering around that have a connection to the Solo/Skywalker clan...so where's Yoda? He showed up at the end of RotJ, but I can't remember him doing much of anything after that.

IIRC, Anakin showed up at the Truce at Bakura to tell Leia that he's sorry he tortured her (smooth move, Daddy), but otherwise doesn't do much until out of absolutely nowhere and for no clear reason, he shows up and talks to Jacen. He tells him to 'stand firm'...which is a little odd, since one of the most consistent criticisms of the character during that time was that he was way too sure of himself.

Then there's this:

Setting aside the other criticisms, I don't recall Anakin Skywalker ever doing anything remotely like that. But if we're to accept that he did, it might have been cool if Anakin had guided Jacen during the NJO; using his ghostly interactions to train him into finally being able to pull off this thing. The problem is that his 'guidance' isn't ever anything like that. It's just a repetition of 'stand firm', IIRC.


And honestly, if you want to know the truth (if I let myself slip ever so slightly): it feels like a shoehorned in explanation for something that didn't need one. So Jacen hears voices. A lot of religious people do. Leave it alone. Heck, maybe he was going crazy. It could have been used later, after the NJO to help explain what happened to him.

But this could all just be my racism against dead people coming through.

As far as me assuming Nyax died beforehand:
Take your pick: Either Nyax was already dead, or all Jacen had to do to escape was to hold out till Luke and friends showed up. Which do you think paints Vergere's intervention in a worse light? Because they're both terrible, no matter how you spin it. Honestly, I think it's less horrible to assume that the Luke rescue option wasn't on the table. Plus, yes, there's the publication date, which makes for a nice little narrative arc at the Force well.

 

Yeah this stopped being fun a few pages ago. Time to read Triple Zero or something. Have fun _Catherine_

 

his ghost energy

 

Animal Farm was just about anthropomorphic animals right? That's what I got from it.

 

Regarding the cave, in TTT did Luke re-enter it and if I remember right so did he fell the dark side there. He also got a vision showing him a dark what if of the past - what would have had happened if Mara had been on Jabba's barge - instead of a dark what if of the future.

 

Mortis has the added complexity of not even necessarily being real. Look, it either of you want to sit back and assume my point is "There are no places where it is easier to give into the dark side." you'd be very wrong. The broader question is always "Okay, but why?" and my general contention is less to do with the place than the individual and what they project onto the place. This isn't a difficult point to apprehend although it apparently is an easy one to ignore.

The initial concern was about Jacen and the "raw Force" he felt in the nexus on Coruscant. What is its nature? The answer is right there in the book. I dare suggest it is an answer to our questions about the cave or any comparable place "You see but you do not see. Jacen, why could the Jedi Council build its Temple upon a nexus of the dark side. No guessing. The answer is simple. They wouldn't."

Jacen has to confront this idea. He felt the dark side in that space. Okay, but why?

 

Something something dark side

 

The Dark Side was disproportionately strong in that place because Luke and friends killed Nyax there.
Or
Vergere was totally right about the place not being a Dark Side nexus, because Nyax hadn't yet been killed there... In which case, all Jacen would have had to do to escape was wait near there till Luke showed up. Which just makes Vergere's betrayal ensuring his continued captivity all the more tragically horrendous. Note: This doesn't explain why Jacen feels the Dark Side so strongly there. For this interpretation to account for that, you have to make up your own explanation (inspired by a figurative interpretation of Vergere's words). Which, while perfectly valid internally to Traitor, most explanations I've seen don't work as well when applied to other material.
Or
Nyax wasn't dead, but he had recently awoken, and the Dark Side that Jacen was feeling was Nyax's will being imposed upon the Force around him... Which sort of compounds the bad parts of both previous explanations: Vergere is wrong about the Dark Side in that location and all Jacen had to do to escape was wait for Luke.

I actually agree that a person falling to the Dark Side pretty much always has more to do with the person than the detailed intricacies of the Force in the location they happen to be in at the time.

However, (edit: removed Sauron analogy) saying 'you can't blame the Dark Side for your actions' is a bit like saying 'sticks and stones can break your bones, but words will never hurt you'. Both statements are certainly true, but it's also important to be aware that entire civilization devastating wars have been fought as the result of words that 'will never hurt you'.

Individuals are always responsible for their own actions, but those individuals are also always influenced by their environment. The blame goes exclusively to the person, but that doesn't excuse the rest of us from ignoring the environment.

 

I love Vergere because she's just wrong about the dark side. She's a heretic; she has a weird theological idea that the Jedi rejected for good reason. I wish there were more of that. I loved that the Imperial Knights were originally described as "fully trained Jedi," and I loved the idea that Corellian Jedi just didn't follow the same rules as the Jedi on Coruscant.

 

Aw, Uli. I stuck my nose in earlier, too, to suggest that, because of the dark side, the more Jacen messed around the more messed up he got. Apparently that's not an accepted viewpoint, though I'm not yet sure why.

But yeah - Vergere as secretly right or Vergere as Sith flatten the universe.

 

You're quite literally saying nothing that Traitor doesn't already say. Or, really, the entire film series. The only thing that you're fundamentally misinterpreting is the idea that being in a place full of the Force means that some spooky dark side devil appears on your shoulder and makes you do bad stuff.


The answer to all of this always has been and continues to be: "Only what you take with you."

 

I think the first explanation is the correct one.

The sequence of actions in the book has Nyax awakening, then breaking through whatever the Jedi had used to 'cap' the Nexus (from the description it may have been that special stone Thrawn's HQ had been built with) with a large Construction Droid, then the final battle with the Jedi team and Vong ships - ISTR Tahiri used Vong weaponry (which Nyax couldn't detect) to help bring him down.

 

When exactly is it that some feel Jacen became JINO? I ask because I am considering reading more of the NJO and I'm curious if I'll agree for once. Balance Point?

 

IMHO, during DNT, Cushy.

 

I no longer remember is that before or after LotF, Tim?

 

If not beforehand, then he plunges head first into the act during The Unseen Queen.