**Choreography Comp 2.5 -- The Judges' Reviews**

The Judges' reviews/votes are in.


Judge: Samuel Saulnier (JediByKnight) --

Entry 1 - "Adam VS Gary"
Originality in the intro is a nice opening for this whole competition. The choreography is something one could expect to see between Episodes III and IV, something Bob Anderson could have choreographed, with a few faster and more intense moves Nick Gillard would have come up with. However the execution at times feels a little rough, as if our two Jedi enthusiasts lacked a couple more days to rehearse. The purple blade fighter oftens seems to not use his arms' flexibility to their fullest extent, something a strong opponent could quite easily take advantage of. The one handed moves particularly stand out there, and this problem would have been corrected a bit, if not fixed, with a little more practice. The green lightsaber fighter looks more convincing overall, although his one-handed style suffers the same problem. However his two sabers action is quite nice and the actor's hard work in rehearsal clearly shows.The footwork isn't academic at all, with the legs not crossing as often as they should when switching sides. Many small steps could have been avoided by using the torso. All this results in a few occasions where the bodies look off-balance. Good additions of the Force tricks.

A nice fight overall, with good action and an efficient dual sabers sequence. One can see how much work went into this, and how much fun was had preparing and filming it. I really enjoyed watching it, well done guys.

Entry 2 - by GoldLeader23

From the start we're treated to a quite ambitious piece, as the young opponents use both single and dual saber styles. The short sequence however seems to fall flat, as most of it is quite simple choreography where both fighters bash their adversary's "life saver" as hard as they can. A good effect of that is that we are shown lots of disarming. Those times where each fighter are disarmed, unfortunately, aren't used, which brings down the credibility of the piece an aweful lot. Here even more than in Entry 1, the footwork doesn't look like something the choreographer deemed worthy of special attention. A good point for the use of environment must be given, though. This is exactly why I like the battle in The Two Towers better than the one in Return of the King, or to keep it "Star Warsy", why I think ESB's duel is the best of the OT : use of environment and objects nearby. Of course this entry isn't the scale of a feature length film, so I'm happy with "only" someone jumping off a tree to dodge what could be a fatal blow.

Even though the fighting looks rather weak in this entry, I must say I enjoy watching it because of the music used. This is proof that a nice packaging will tip the scales. It makes the entry lots of fun to watch.

Entry 3 - by FriarStrong

Now this is a very good entry. The long minute of introduction is a hint telling the viewer what kind of fighting he can expect. Now I have 6 years of traditional fencing behind me, so this style of choreography isn't easy for me to analyze properly. But I'll give it a go.
Well to start with, the first series of quick punches look very nice, and from what I can tell these are not complete amateurs there. The cinematography choice makes it hard to make out the details of the moves though. We then get some staff action. Now some of the guy in white's moves seem a little stiff, but I believe that's the point there, with the whole "spending as less energy as possible" philosophy. The style changes a bit when the staff is broken in half. This is what lightsabers could be, and it's nicely done. The fighters don't seem to give the opponent a chance when seeing an overture, and the martial arts background give them a good sense of balance, as well as efficient placement of feet. The last part of the fight, with the one in white using two sabers... or two sticks... looks a little less natural than the rest, with a few instances where the actors seem to be waiting for the opportune moment to sta

 

I'll have to read this bloated cow...


Congrat's 10 and 3! I loved both shorts. And, I always try to wear shorts...

 

Congratulations Entry 10. Well deserved. Despite the lack of sound, this was most effective. I was even tempted to add sound myself but my computer is unfortunately no capable of holding the necesary programs anymore.

 

Well, here's some quick responses to some of the stuff you guys said about my entry (#6).

As people pointed out during voting, this looks like "more running than fighting".

No point in saying anything more about that. It's true.

The trace the saber leaves on the rock is a nice touch, very few would take the time to do that.

It's kind of funny because I didn't think it was anything special, but it's turned out to be one of the only noteworthy things about the fight. I think more people should do that.

several incoherencies to be found here, namely problems of balance, footwork, and fluidity.

Agreed, only what do you mean by balance?

From what I can tell, this was a 100% fun project, and it's great to see those.

Indeed. This was my first live action lightsaber fight and we only had 4 days to make it; I figured there wasn't much point in trying to take it seriously, so I just used it as an opportunity to have fun and learn stuff.

There really isn't very much choreography in this clip to speak of.

Not sure what to say to that. There isn't much choreography, but I'd appreciate it if you did speak of it. That's what these reviews are supposed to be for, right?

An interesting setting with some nice interaction with the location, but again, a lot of running around avoiding a fight as opposed to any real fighting.

Same old comments there. Just as true as when everybody else said it.

You gave up on the rotoscoping, personally I would have liked to see a fight much more than seeing roto'ed sabers.

It wasn't the sabers that I gave up on. The orange saber guy was supposed to get his head cut off.

They treat their weapons cautiously, and use them as if they are not very familiar with them.

Well, that was partially because they aren't very familiar with them, of course, but we were intentionally not trying to pretend we know more than we do.

Rather than try to pretend to be world-class martial artists, they simply do their fight their way.

See what I said before.

The main criticism I have is that there isn?t really any intensity. I get no sense of buildup or resolution

That's probably because we made it all up as we went along.

I would have loved to see a CG tree going down!

Next time maybe.

I think this entry could be greatly improved by sound design?

Definitely. If I had had more time I would have tried to do something about it.

I think I accomplished what I intended to with my entry: fun, filmmaking and lightsaber fighting practice, and a decent lightsaber fight with a couple of cool ideas.

 

Thanks. It definately was a close contest in both the Judges' and popular poll votes. I'd like to commend everyone who entered in this contest. Some of the entries were REALLY great and I enjoyed watching them all. Hats off to everyone who entered (especially entry 3 and 7-- very well done, teams ) and thank you, Judges.

A new version of my entry with sound FX will be released as soon as my friend who's in charge of foley stops hanging out with guys named Sacha.




-Brandon Flyte

 

Congrats guys! Well deserved!

 

Well done Brandon,

Looking forward to Comp 3!!

Congrats to everyone that entered.

 

Agreed, only what do you mean by balance?

When judging balance, I look at the way the body is positioned, its angle, and where arms and legs are (as well as how much they are bent - hope all this makes sense).

So when I see problems of balance with someone, it's when their body is in an awkward position overall (of course, this not being caused by the choreography itself, for instance when an attack puts someone off balance on purpose).

 

Nice job, guys!!! W007! You deserved it!

As fun as this all was, I'm sorta glad it can all be put behind us, what with the confusion and awkwardness of it all. Just hurry up and get to the next competition!!


...trying to remember and judges comments I could talk about...

"what was on the bottle?" It was a bottle of red bull, the energy drink that gives you wings.(or so the ads would have you believe)

As far as martial arts training goes, I (the man in white) have a year of tae kwon do, and about the same in Tai Chi/Kung Fu. "The Man In Black" (Thomas harvey) has pretty much no formal martial arts training, which is why you don't see him doing any of the big flourishy kicks.

If people liekd the clip (which I assume at least a few people did), you should know that its an exerpt (with costumes, location and ending changed) from a larger movie which is coming out in late spring of this year. stay tuned for that!


Once again, Congrads to #10!

 

Congrats go to everyone who entered this contest. My thanks go out to all of you guys for being so patient with us during this time. I had a lot of fun co-admining this contest and am looking forward to doing another one soon.

Once again, thanks must go to the Judges, who took time out of their busy schedules to look at these clips the way they are supposed to be looked at. The popular poll vote was there so everybody could participate in this event. Everyone who entered and judged did a great job.

Congrats also to Brandon for taking the gold. It was a close one that's for sure. Be on the lookout for Choreography Contest 3 everyone...

Sage H.

 

If people liekd the clip (which I assume at least a few people did), you should know that its an exerpt (with costumes, location and ending changed) from a larger movie which is coming out in late spring of this year. stay tuned for that!

ROCK!

 

Well... I must say I was as interested as everyone else to read all the judges reviews.

In karate tournaments, when you evaluate a kata it's all about performance. You watch people go through the pre-arranged motions and then rank them according to the precision, accuracy, and intent with which they were performed. The winner ends up being the one with the most physical skill and discipline - and is honored for it.

This competition reminds me of figure skating, whereby both presentation and artistic merit have been evaluated.

Clearly the competition ended up between entries 3 and 10 (with Rybot's entry likely to have mixed up the scores a little bit), but makes for a clear distiction between form - Entry 10, and what I consider choreograhy in of itself - Entry 3. Reading the reviews indicates that all the judges made these distinctions between the entries, and it was our individual tastes/interpretations that resulted in selecting one over the other.

I expected that number 10 would win the competition from the get-go, despite my personal choice... and I was curious to see who would vote for what. Honestly, the only thing that suprised me was that WisperingDeath agreed with DorkmanScott

Ultimately, with a 2 vs. 3 vote, it is reasonable to state that both presentation and content are very nearly equally important to a judged competition. What is a little suprising is how significantly different this is from a popular opinion standpoint - whereby the public by in large will only vote for that which has the highest production values and is the most entertaining.

I think this competition was a great experience for all involved, and is educational in terms of style and marketing research for everyone who takes the time to watch the entries and analyze the results.

-Steve

 

as my friend who's in charge of foley stops hanging out with guys named Sacha.





frenchie you dog

 

whereby the public by in large will only vote for that which has the highest production values and is the most entertaining.

Ouuuuuch....

-Chris

 

Gee Chris... what's "Ouch?" there... basically I just said Brandon's entry was the most entertaining to watch, and as a direct result of that I expected it to win the public vote.

EDIT: By and large, this statement is well known - as those movies that generate the largest box-office returns are highly-financed wide-release blockbusters that appeal to the large scale audiences. Similar comparisons have been drawn between RvD and AOTS2 from the last competition.

-Steve

 

basically I just said Brandon's entry was the most entertaining to watch, and as a direct result of that I expected it to win the public vote.

And implied that, in your estimation, the public in question is comprised of an unthinking and uninformed herd that will go for style over substance.

You may not have meant that at all, but that's what seemed to come through.

M. Scott

 

Tiz kinda true though.

You can make a lightsaber fight with the best choreography to date....but if you only use one camera angle for a whole 2-3 minutes, most people will gradually loose interest and die off!

I remember in the first choreography competition where RvsD and the Ho Brothers entries were neck and neck and similar dispute occured.

The Ho brothers entry showed just a little better choreography than Ryan and Dorkman's entry(not saying that RvsD's choreography sucked cuz we know that's not true.), but Ryan vs. Dorkman looked alot better from a cinematic perspective.

Pretty much all the entries in this current competition tried to add some cinematic value, good or bad, to help enhance their video. Sometimes even the worst choreography can be enhanced through the magic of editing.

Entry #10 had the best overall presentation. Good rotoscoping, good choreography and good use of camera angles. Entry #3 could have almost beat #10 in terms of presentation if it didnt suffer from bad lighting in the first half, and assuming that having no lightsabers doesnt matter. Entry #7 didnt move "as quickly" as say #10 and #3 did, but it was still entertaining! And entry #1 showed off some pretty good choreography, but suffered from being too long without making any drastic changes in camera angles or scenery.

So in the end, choreography is good.....but presentation is everything!

 

In short: Style IS substance.

EDIT: just a slight rebuttal to Michael's statement. By and large, the public is uninformed. I would never state that they don't think, but specifics on details and rules are rarely given to the public. This is the whole point in having a panel of judges to begin with - to critically analyze the submissions and be informed.

-Spiff

 

And implied that, in your estimation, the public in question is comprised of an unthinking and uninformed herd that will go for style over substance.


Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......eaaaaah?

 

Be quiet, Fig.

I personally took into account presentation because it affects the choreography so greatly. You've only got one eye looking at the scene, it better be in a good place or you're not going to see what you want to see.

I remember in RvD we had some moves that looked great from one angle, but from another they looked boring and repetitive. Same moves, but they looked different based on perspective.

The moves are only part of the choreography, and so I guess we agree, style is substance.

M. Scott

 

Even though the fighting looks rather weak in this entry, I must say I enjoy watching it because of the music used.

Thanks!

and feels like something the team has filmed after only one or two rehearsals.

Pretty much. We maybe rehearsed four or five times, but it probably wouldn't have hurt to do more, as we know now. We had about 0 experience then.

There are a total of 9 cuts in this project, and 8 of them break the line.

I didn't notice that!

However ?the footage could easily have been cropped to widescreen given the distances involved, and would have improved the aesthetic.

I'll think about that for the future, thanks.


Congrats to everyone (especially Entries 10 and 3), thanks for all the input everybody, and I'm looking forward to choreography comp. 3 .

 

"I remember in RvD we had some moves that looked great from one angle, but from another they looked boring and repetitive."

I really do agree with Mike on this one. It comes down to the fact that we are looking at 2 different styles of choreography in this competition. It is a difficult task to assign a winner in what is *almost* an apples to oranges comparison because both sides went in with completely different means to the same goal. I thought that clip 10 succeeded slightly better in achieving the goals of 'camera' choreography than 3 did in achieving 'technical' choreography.

I stated explicitly that I voted for AotS last time to provide a bit of evidence that this is not a flashylightsaber wizz-noises vs. true knowledge of choreography debate. It is simply the fact that 3 had minor hickups whereas 10 was consistantly spectacular.

 

My opinion about this contest is that to try to not count camera work, direction and editing is foolhardy and ludicrous because they directly affect how the choreography is percieved by the viewer.

So yeah, when someonne tells me my vote is misplaced because i am the bland and uninformed public, i have to take a small amount of offense. I watched all 10 of the entries multiple times (which is more than some voters can say), and i voted for entry #10 because its choreography was more convincing and the actors were more commited to the execution.

Unlike what some might like to think, i was not swayed by the pretty lights. Oooooooooh.

-Chris

 

Heh... Let's play nice fellas...

Sage H.

 

As has been said by me several times, the effectiveness of the fight is greatly dependent on the editing, music, cinematograpy and effects. While the veiwer and judges should be aware that these elements are not the priority, but rather the fighting is I find it short sighted that someone would suggest that they are independent of the fight, and only fools would take them into account. You have to remember that this is still a film making competition, of sorts. It involves the methods and concepts of film making we all subliminally adhere to as an audience.

As I have stated with my rants about rules, editing, plot structure and such we are trained to understand movies a certain way. Whether you realize it or not, even the most informed mind is manipulated by film. Cuts being the best example. Something that takes hours to do but if done right are never seen. It just feels seemless and as though you blinked. Its natural to us. Things like camera angles and editing greatly change the effectiveness of a fight.

As stated two different angles of the exact same sequence can look drasticly different and thus effect how you perceive the movie.

They are factors in choreography.