Senate Christianity Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jabba-wocky, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    star 7
  2. harpua Chosen One

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    I will open my ears and my heart. Let God's love shine down on my deranged and tormented soul.
    Last edited by harpua, Feb 14, 2014
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  3. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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  4. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

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    Unlike the ludicrously dumb debates MovieFan spawns, this thread is actually fun.
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  5. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

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    Nov 2, 2000
    star 8


    Open the eyes of my harps, Lord/Open the eyes of my harps.
  6. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    *handles a snake while speaking in tongues*
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  7. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    As you wish.

    "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. "

    Prophecy of the 70 weeks in the ESV Bible

    "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    KJV version.

    The prophecy of the 70 weeks at the end of Daniel 9 is one of the most important. The seven weeks and threescore and two add up to 69 weeks total - but they are weeks of seven years. So the 69 weeks span 483 years. The timing of the mentioned decree to rebuild Jerusalem is vague, but is considered to be either the decree of Cyrus or the decrees to Ezra and Nehemiah.

    Cyrus' decree, usually dated around his ascension to the throne, only mentions the rebuilding of Jerusalem's walls, not the city itself. The later decrees given to Ezra and Nehemiah both mention the rebuilding of the city and so are more feasible. The first decree was given in 458/457 and the later decree in 445/444. It is not quite easy to tell which one is the correct one, given the calendar bungle around the BC/AD switchover.

    I won't quibble over the Crucifixion date since the calendar is bungled but the 483 years likely ends with Jesus' death. It continues, " And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. "

    The Temple, "sanctuary," was destroyed by the Romans under Crown Prince Titus Vespasian in AD 70, nearly forty years after Christ's death and to this day has not been rebuilt. By the end of the Roman/Jew conflict in 73, Jerusalem had been destroyed as well. Ever since then, until 1948, the Jews were scattered throughout the world. Today, war still continues between Israel and her neigbors.

    Verse 27, alluding to the final week, follows after, but has not happened yet.

    "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    I will note there is another interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy, given here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70_weeks_prophecy#The_angelic_discourse_of_Daniel_9:20-27

    but while it seems at least midly feasible, there is too much twisting going on there when studying everything to make it entirely plausible. If you like, I'll provide an explanation of this alternative 70 week view and why I don't think it works.
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Feb 14, 2014
  8. dp4m Chosen One

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    Nov 8, 2001
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    Even I, who marvel at the Jewish Calendar in its lunar-ness and leap-months from time to time, wonder how in the hell 69 weeks is 483 years...
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  9. Zapdos Force Ghost

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    Jan 7, 2013
    star 5
    damn you gotta be pretty damn exhausted when the weekend finally arrives

    edit lol damn damn
    Last edited by Zapdos, Feb 14, 2014
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  10. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    Yeah I was going to say, how do you get that timeframe?
  11. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

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    Go back and read my post again.

    Edit: Same to you, @Point Given. Read and look closely at what I said.
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Feb 14, 2014
  12. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    hey skywalkerhomie what you think about nostradamus?
  13. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

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    star 4
  14. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    star 7
  15. Zapdos Force Ghost

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    Jan 7, 2013
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    skywalkernumbers, have you met moviefan? i'm playing valentines day match maker
  16. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 9, 2011
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    Irrelevant. Stop baiting and spamming, please.
  17. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

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    wait so how is nostradamus irrelevant? if the ability do complicated numerical and verbal gymnastics after the fact to make a prophecy kind of sort of line up with a random event that happened later in history provides evidence of divine inspiration, then nostradamus had like a whole bunch that that works for so how has he not been adopted into the bible?
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  18. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    [IMG]
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  19. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    Yeah I read that, thank you very much. You said that it corresponded to "weeks of seven years" but both quotes from the ESV and KJV don't specify that a week is seven years. So I ask again, how did you get that conclusion?
  20. Lord Vivec Chosen One

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    Apr 17, 2006
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    Well hello there Seven of Nine.
  21. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 9, 2011
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    Do you seriously expect it to be referring to a literal period of weeks, @Point Given? If so, you need to brush up on your understanding of the significance of the number seven to the Jews. To answer your question, let me point out an earlier verse. This is from the NIV.

    " “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Feb 14, 2014
  22. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9

    Hi! Welcome to my wonderful world of Judaism. The number 7, indeed, has some wonderfully mystical properties -- requisite days of mourning, days in a week with the seventh being the Holy Day of Sabbath, aliyot on reading Torah.

    Never have I heard of the number seven transubstantiating water into wine, I mean weeks into years. This isn't The Wrath of Khan; hours do not seem like days...
  23. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    Oh, think about it. 69 weeks from the decree to the arrival of the Anointed One. Was Jerusalem rebuilt, walls and all, in less than two years after the decree went out? No!
  24. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    I'm an agnostic raised by atheists/agnostics who themselves were raised by Hindus and Muslims. Why the hell do you expect me to be intimately familiar with how the number 7 relates to Judaism? Instead of acting holier than thou and expecting everyone to be familiar with the Judeo-Christian tradition how about you actually explain it.

    I'm not here to mock unlike some other posters. But I will do so if you persist in your attitude.
  25. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    May I suggest you do some research of your own?