Senate Christianity Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jabba-wocky, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. JoinTheSchwarz Comms Admin & Community Manager

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    star 8
    I don't think God is cruel. He's merely abusive, probably because he was abused by God Sr. before the Big Bang. If only some other god was a therapist (Ganesh, perhaps?), he could get trearment, some mood stabilizers perhaps, and we'd all be so much better.
  2. VadersLaMent Chosen One

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    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
  3. epic Ex Mod / RSA

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    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    your version is certainly more palatable, but i'm debating agianst the more commonly held view. i mean, if your version was correct, then why bother with "the great commission"? everyone is going to end up in heaven eventually, anyway.
  4. Ghost Chosen One

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    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I don't try to convert, just lead from example. And by embracing some spiritual truths, especially those taught in Christianity, individuals will be more likely to find peace and get to "Heaven" sooner. "Hell" may be temporary, but even if you get out of it a moment sooner than you otherwise would have, it's worth it.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Aug 3, 2013
  5. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    So many of you claim the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally. So why is it that Christians feèl they can quote random passages from it as if those quotes were the absolute truth?
  6. Ghost Chosen One

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    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Because most Christians believe most of it is still inspired by God.

    And some Christians, NOT all, view every verse as the absolute truth. But they're a minority.

    We're not monolithic.


    Is every American a rich, gun-loving, culturally-insensitive ****? No. But many people around the world think all Americans are alike. Like how many people think all Muslims are alike. Or all Atheists are alike. Or all Gay people are alike. Or all Black people are alike. Or all Asian people are alike. Or all Christians are alike. The people who think these things are wrong.
    Last edited by JoinTheSchwarz, Aug 3, 2013
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  7. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    As I've raised repeatedly throughout our conversation, though, you only arrive at this conclusion through a very narrow, egocentric style of analysis that considers only the impacts on the individual in question. But that's not how the world works. Zeroing out someone's life would never have consequences on only that one individual.

    Bull Connor was an unrepentant segregationist. He gave tacit permission to the Klu Klux Klan to operate with impunity, and regularly deployed to local police force to terrorize black citizens. He held these views until the end of his life. I would hope we can all agree he was a bad person. His granchildren are fairly non-descript, average people. Similarly, George Wallace was probably one of the most infamous segregationist politicians in modern American history; his daughter is a well-respected anti-poverty and civil rights activist. Should these individuals be denied a right to exist for the sake of their fathers' choices? Can one person's bad choices be allowed to veto the very existence of 2 good people? 25? 50? 1,000?

    I realize that these sorts of examples rapidly become so abstracted that it's hard to discuss. But that's exactly my point. There's a complex moral calculus here that involves more variables than a human mind can even comprehend, all coming into play at once. But your analysis doesn't even attempt to grapple with these questions. You just ignore them. When you do that, you aren't really "putting yourself in God's shoes." You're just restating the things you already think: you don't like the idea of Hell, you think one can rationally decide to believe in Christianity, etc. It's fine for you to do that, but you should realize that a conclusion that is predicated on your assumptions as an atheist doesn't really come close to capturing the dynamics of the sort of decision we're discussing, and whether those decisions should be understood as compassionate, callous, or something in-between.
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  8. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    http://atheism.about.com/od/gospelcontradictions/p/TrialJesus.htm

    Taken to the Authorities:

    Matthew 26:57 - "And those who had laid hold of Jesus led Him away to Caiaphas the High Priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled."

    Mark 14:53 - "And they led Jesus away to the High Priest, and with him were assembled all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes."

    Luke 22:54 - Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the High Priest's house. But Peter followed at a distance."

    John 18: 13-24 - "And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year. Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest. But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter. Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not. And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself. The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said. And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest."

    When Jesus was arrested, He was taken to the residence of the High Priest, per Luke and John, who also recount Peter following (with John himself in John). Jesus appeared first before Annas, the former High Priest and father-in-law of Caiaphas. Though he had been deposed years earlier, Annas still exerted enormous political influence in Judea and remained the real power behind the Office of High Priest, so he was still considered a High Priest. John is referring to Annas throughout most of this section. After He is questioned by Annas, Jesus appears before Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin, per Matthew and Mark.

    Absolutely no contradictions exist here. A careful reading of the verses will show the proper sequence of events. Furthermore, Austin Cline conveniently ignores the fact that the Gospel writers present the details of Jesus' life and ministry as they were directed to by God; the Gospels are not meant to be a literal timeline, but rather snapshots of the most important moments of Jesus' life and different writers have differing attentions to detail, but taken together, all the accounts are harmonious.
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  9. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    So John 3:16 isn't the truth. Good to know.
  10. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    That word seriously isn't allowed? Yet we can say "wtf"? That's odd.



    The truth about Jesus will be apparent to everyone after we die.

    In this life, how does someone believe in, or commit to, or follow, Jesus? By following his teachings, by committing to his teachings by believing in his teachings. That's what Jesus really is. That's what God really is. God is love, and following Jesus means loving one another, believing in the redemptive power of love.


    And as I've said, many Christians have different interpretations. You seem to think this is all very black and white, either absolutely true or completely false.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Aug 3, 2013
  11. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    First Hearing:

    Cline is clearly confused here. He claims that John 18:28 and 19:14 show that Jesus was charged on the day before Passover. What he ignores is the fact that all of the verses he cites, including the two in John, come AFTER Jesus has celebrated Passover with the disciples. Passover lasted for a week, beginning at dusk on the fourteenth day of the first month (Jesus and the disciples in the Upper Room and the Lord's supper.) In John, the Passover supper begins in Chapter 13 and the disciple records Jesus' discourse during the meal. In the case of John 19:14, due to the fact that the religious authorities were negotiating with Judas for His betrayal, followed by the arrest and the hearing and trials, it is likely the High Priest and Sanhedrin had not yet celebrated their Passover meal.

    No contradictions exist.
  12. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    First Trial:

    John 18:13-24 has already been dealt with under "Taken to the Authorities." The passages in Mark, Matthew, and Luke show Jesus being tried before Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin.

    No contradictions.
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Aug 3, 2013
  13. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    who are you talking to?
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    @Skywalker8921: You've done a tremendous and commendable job in the last two posts. Really, though, I wouldn't feel obligated to offer a point-by-point refutation to timmoishere. If he had an actual specific argument he wanted to make, I'd feel differently, but it's silly of him to just drop entire books and websites in here and ask people to respond. That would be like a Christian demanding he refute every single verse of the Bible individual, and then every single chapter of books about apologetics by six different authors.

    You proved pretty thoroughly that both timmoishere's sources (and him) were intellectually lazy about this whole thing. I would say that at this point, the onus is on him to either present something more credible as a whole, or actually bring out the one or two points he thinks are solid, instead of making everyone wade through flippant, poorly researched garbage.
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  15. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    Heh, appreciate the support. I was actually going to start with the "Resurrection" article he linked to, but then I found the ones about the Trial and Crucifixion and decided to start from there. Unfortunately, given the back and forth we've had today, he'll probably dismiss it all without bothering to address my points.
  16. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    i think it would have actually been better if you had started with the things he linked to. or at least it would have made sense in the context of a discussion.
    Last edited by tom, Aug 3, 2013
  17. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    whelp, i guess that settles it. God Exists. deal with it.
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  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Erm. . .



    I would agree it's still pretty hard to keep track of at times, which is why I don't really like the whole "respond to the Cracked.com list of 73 things I found to support my position" style of discussion. But it's what timmo is doing, so whatever.
  19. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    Like I said, I was going to, but the the trial and crucifixion are central to understanding Christianity as well. I will address the Resurrection, though, if he simply gives me the brush off.
  20. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    yeah those are two different pages, albeit from the same general site. hard to keep track of indeed!
  21. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Lol. Oops

    And your ability to own me in this way is yet another reason you deserve your number one spot.
  22. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    Also, Cline wrote all three articles as well as a few others.
  23. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    **** i just coveted. somebody stone me
  24. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Not to drag up an old conversation, but I'd disagree with you here.

    People didn't just make up the part about the fate of non-believers. Most Christian denominations teach that because that's what it says, as the above cited passages demonstrate.
  25. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    I would still like an answer to one of my older questions. As a Christian, you obviously dismiss the beliefs of other religions as bring untrue. What makes those religions untrue? What makes your religion the truth? Do you realize that followers of other religions dismiss your beliefs just as easily as you dismiss theirs?

    If I came up with a new religion on the spot (read: Scientology), you would dismiss it as nonsense immediately, because unless I has credible evidence that we are all inhabited by ancient alien souls, you would have no reason to brlieve me.

    There is no credible evidence to suggest there is an all-powerful, all- knowing god who created the universe. There is no credible evidence that Jesus was the son of this god. There is no credible evidence that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse. There is no credible evidence that Santa flies around on a magical sleigh pulled by flying reindeer.

    They're all stories, tales, fiction.