Senate Christianity Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jabba-wocky, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    God is like a kid with a magnifying glass, frying ants just for the fun of it. And you have the nerve to call him loving.
  2. wmu'14 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    Correct.

    A big issue I've actually seen with Christianity is reverse fire-and-brimstone. That is, the Christians preach too much of God's love and nothing on His wrath. Then this convinces the people they can and should do whatever they want and deserve whatever they want. God is God. He can do whatever the heck He wants.
    It's kind of a lose-lose for Christians. Preach love but then the people think they deserve the world, don't have it, and are against God for it for being invisible to them. Preach fire-and-brimstone and people are turned off because they see God as too wrathful.
    Last edited by wmu'14, Jul 15, 2014
  3. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Religion preys on people's insecurities and fear of their inevitable deaths. It provides a comforting fantasy. And because none of religion's wild claims can be supported by evidence, they resort to threatening nonbelievers. If Christians could just keep their beliefs to themselves and NOT try to impose their brand of morality on everyone, then coexistence would be much easier.
    The Shadow Emperor likes this.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I could actually wrap my brain around a god who is loving but non-interventional. Love does not mean giving gifts or making things happen, and if a god does not claim to be omniscient and all-powerful, there is no reason to yell "you ***hole" when **** happens (as it inevitably does in this life) either. Nobody could claim he doesn't care, he just doesn't intervene.

    But when presented with a god who makes ridiculous demands, claims to be "all powerful" but behaves like the jealous abusive half in a really bad relationship, and then claims that "I'm god, I can do whatever I want, shut up and take your 'love' you little ****"...how can you blame people for being turned off?
  5. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    I cannot believe in a god that has absolutely no evidence supporting its existence. And I cannot worship a god that demands absolute obedience, demands that I forego my intellect and skepticism, and refuses to reveal itself.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I'm not quite as extreme as you. :p The lack of evidence doesn't bother me. Other factors aside, I could accept that one.

    The demands for absolute obedience, surrender of skepticism as you said, and the threats, along with what fundamentalist Christianity means for a woman, are complete turnoffs.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  7. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Man and ants are both animals. They are practically the same thing. Not to mention a kid is stupid. Meanwhile God being the ultimate being... if he fries you with a magnifying glass he has a good reason for it and the absolute right to do it. The universe is his garden, you may not like him doing the trimming and pruning but he knows better than you.

    And I do call that loving. By right he should destroy us all, the fact he has not and actually died so that we could be forgiven and live with him shows that. All the suffering on earth in this mortal life is ultimately inconsequential and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Both of mine are smart enough to know that frying ants with a magnifying glass is ***hole behavior.

    Wow.

    Allllrighty then, your choice.

    But if that's love...I want all of you to hate me, right now, very intensely. Please.
  9. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Eh, kids are stupid.

    Love is doing what's best for someone, not what that person wants. Life on this earth is ultimatley pointless. Do your purpose, try and rescue as many fellow humans as you can, and you die and go to heaven. It's barely a blip in the grand scheme of things. It's like freaking out over having a doctor prick your kids finger for a blood test.
    Sarge likes this.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Oh Christians and their bass-ackwards morals...
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    As I said...

    Wow.

    I'm glad that frying people is considered a loving act now.

    Oh wait...no I'm not.

    And the stereotyping and bashing an entire group of people due to their age is pretty damn horrific unless I hear "kids are stupid" in the voice of Marv from Home Alone, and sadly that wasn't the most hateful thing said here.
  12. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Genesis says otherwise; man is explicitly said to be made in the image of God.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  13. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    You seem to think life on earth and what happens here ultimately matters.

    Yeah... kids are not smart. That's why we have schools and education. Some have good intuition, most stick whatever they find in their mouths. If you think that's hateful and that everything I've said is so full of hate then I don't think you understand the word or what it means...

    Man and ants are animals, they are not plants, or minerals. God is God. to suggest that a man and at comparison is comparable to God and man vastly overstates man's importance. Yes we are made in the image, yes he loves us, but ultimately we are nothing.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I know what "hate" means.

    And "you deserve to be fried like an ant under a magnifying glass" is pretty damn hateful. I have never said that to anyone, nor would I. If that's what your god thinks, then yes, I'm going to continue to LMAO at the idea that he's "loving."

    And "needs to be educated because they are young" does not equal "stupid." Stupid people are those who don't get concepts after they are taught.
    timmoishere likes this.
  15. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    It is hateful to suggest that indiscriminate killing is an act of love. Your morals are so out of whack it's a wonder you can even function in the real world.
  16. Abalore Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2001
    star 1
    What a disgusting, contemptible worldview.

    The sooner you get over your fear of death and wanting for an afterlife, the sooner you realize that the one and only life we have is absolutely full of beauty and purpose, and puts to shame the eternal praise, worship, devotion and masochism of your so-called heaven.
  17. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Okay because it seems to me at least it's me saying things you disagree with.

    That's your problem then.

    Eh, that may be your definition of stupid. Also that word must have a much more negative connotation where you live, here it just means 'not doing smart things'

    Of course indiscriminate killings can be an act of love. A gardener loves his garden, I suppose you'll think he's a monster for pulling out dying plants and putting in new ones... or trimming them.

    Fear death? Ha. Please. Death is about a big a deal as waiting for an airline flight. I know where I'm going. I'll do what I can here and when I've done all that I'm meant to do I'll be called home. But life here on earth? Hardly worth remembering in the grand scheme of things.
  18. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    I imagine he rather would be if said plants were in the midst of developing an enlightened civilisation, to be shining examples of the beauty the gardener had intended when he planted them.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That's what every serial killer in the world has said, I'm sure.

    So what's the end goal here? To recruit people to Christianity by fear?

    Or to sit on a playground rock and say "You're going to hell, neh neh neh boo boo"?

    If it's the former, you might want to try a different tactic, as fear of the boogeyman only works on the weak-minded. If it's the latter, well...LOL. Enjoy. I'll let you know what the wine tastes like.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jul 15, 2014
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  20. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    To an all powerful being who created existence I doubt there is any accomplishment we could make that would make him honestly go 'and your different from a plant how?' He loves us not out of anything we can or will do, he just chooses to. He'd be well within his right to just get rid of all of us. But for some reason even though we are so so so so so infinitely inferior he still would rather save as many of us as he can.

    You keep comparing this to human to human interaction. So long as you think God is your equal you will never understand. He is infinitely our greater and you are infinitely his lesser.

    Recruit? If that was going to happen it'd have happened. If it will happen it'll be through the Holy Spirit. I'm saying what I think and you all say that's terrible and God is bad. If so that's going to be your problem, nothing I can do about that, it's between you and him.

    Honestly I would greatly prefer it if you all end up in heaven. Our petty disagreements here will seem infinitely petty at the judgement.
  21. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    If heaven is populated by people like you, then I am not interested.

    And no, you don't "know" you're going to heaven. Knowledge of a subject requires empirical data that can be independently demonstrated.
  22. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    It'll have a wide variety of people.

    Of course i can, it's called faith. you rely to much on evidence and proof, must be very boring.
  23. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2000
    star 8
    I don't personally subscribe to what Antilles is saying, but I think his very point is that what God does is not indiscriminate.

    Personally, I subscribe to the mostly non-interventionalist philosophy. The Bible quite explicitly says that God created the Earth and then put humanity in charge of it. I find that most of the evil in the world today flows from bad choices made by humanity. I don't see why God should be blamed for the shape the world is in. He may have created it, but we ****** it up.

    EDIT: I should say that as Antilles continues to post, I continue to disagree more and more vociferously. I don't believe God pulls people up like weeds or causes people to suffer because it fits his great plan. I don't think God views us the way we view ants. I certainly think God would think of us as of more value than plants in a garden. God's plans for us is for each of us to become the best we can. By "time and chance" as the Bible puts it, we are born into different situations, with different problems to overcome. I was lucky enough to be born in America; I was unfortunately born with a tendency toward depression and anxiety and a congenital defect in both knees. That's genetics, you know. Others are born into countries that are torn by war and violence, war and violence inflicted by people onto people, not by God onto people. God does not cause us to suffer; He can sometimes teach us something out of those times of suffering. I learned a lot about myself and about life during that last time of depression. That depression was caused by chemical imbalances, not God; but I learned some things that were valuable and I'm a better person for it. God works, I find, mostly in the spiritual and interior lives, not in the outer circumstances. And God's plans for each of us mostly involve the interior lives, not the outer circumstances.

    I think you make two separate points there that I'd like to kind of pull apart. I agree with the point about not trying to impose brands of morality on others. That's certainly true and you're absolutely right. But I'd argue against that first point about keeping beliefs to themselves. I think everyone should be allowed and encouraged to talk openly about their beliefs. I find the variety of different philosophies of life to be really awe-inspiring and fascinating. I like to talk about what I believe and I like to hear others talk about what they believe. Not even so we can argue, but so I can genuinely understand where others are coming from. I like to hope that some of the things I've said have helped undo misconceptions about what a lot of Christians actually believe; I know a lot of the atheists/non-Christian theists have helped me clear up a lot of misconceptions about what you guys believe. I think if you honestly know where someone else is coming from, it can help with empathy and bridging the gaps by finding what common ground you do have. I don't think anyone should be prevented from sharing their beliefs.

    From where I sit, God does none of those thing. Demands absolute obedience? I doubt I've ever achieved absolute obedience to God's desire for me even once in my life. Absolute obedience would be to love others purely, live completely self-sacrificially and to sincerely give to help others. Absolute obedience to God would be to follow the two commands that Jesus said contained every rule that we needed: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind . . . and love your neighbor as yourself." I have never done either of those things. Not once. God hasn't murdered me yet or thrown me away or told me I can't be a Christian anymore. If God did indeed demand absolute obedience, I certainly wouldn't be here.

    Forgo intellect and skepticism? Hardly. My faith is inextricably linked with the life of my mind. I encounter God through art and culture and education. I'm very pointedly not an "intellectual" but I believe firmly in the life of the mind. As to skepticism, well, if I may say, with respect, you seem, frankly, more like a cynic than a skeptic. I would never ask anyone to give up their skepticism, but the only way forward is to release cynicism. Maybe I'm reading you incorrectly; I'm sure you'll think I am, but it's a thought.

    And does God refuse to reveal Himself? I think you should amend that statement: "God refuses to reveal Himself in the very specific ways I have chosen as the only ones I will notice." God has revealed Himself to me countless times: the quiet voice in my heart that urges me to do the right thing instead of the wrong one; the feeling of peace that comes to me in the moments when my life is in the most turmoil; the absolute certainty in my heart that there is more to this existence than what I can see; the stillness and smallness I feel when confronted with nature at its most majestic and magnificent; the pure love I feel toward friends and family when my life has taught me that there is no capacity for love within me. These things are all gifts, given into my life, though I deserve none of them. A gift comes from somewhere, from someone who knows my name. I know, I know; none of these things are enough for you - they aren't the ways you've decided God needs to reveal Himself in order for it to satisfy you. But He's not hiding. Every moment of life is shot through with his presence. He's not walking down the street with a robe and a white beard or bellowing from the clouds. If you need Him to do so, I'm sorry. For me, what He has done is enough. Every beautiful thing, every great thing, every thing done with love . . . those things are enough for me to believe that there's someone out there infinitely greater than I am.

    Wow, that was long. Well, I haven't posted in here for quite a while.
    Last edited by Rogue1-and-a-half, Jul 15, 2014
  24. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Faith can never be a substitute for knowledge and logic.

    As for your second point, you say that like its a bad thing. Everything in this universe that is known to exist has been reliably demonstrated with facts and evidence. And it's not boring at all. It is very exciting to learn about each new discovery.
  25. GenAntilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    Logic and knowledge can only go so far. it may work for our universe, but ultimately existence goes far beyond their rules and bounds.

    Only believing that which can be proven is rather boring and unimaginative to me. Science is fun and the new discovery's are great, but I prefer to imagine the results and future before we actually prove or create them.