Senate Christianity Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by Jabba-wocky, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    we don't need to note a complex moral calculus that is beyond the scope of the human mind to have this discussion. it's pretty simple. no one deserves to be punished for all eternity - end of story. that's not my viewpoint as an atheist, it's my viewpoint as a human being who has compassion for others. Bull Connor, despite his failings, doesn't deserve to be punished for all eternity, for any reason, let alone in order for his children to live good lives.

    the concept of eternal punishment in hell, and for people to actually believe it, is such a vulgur, barbaric concept that it could only have been dreamt up by a backward, uncultured civilisation with little to no education. for anyone to justify it in the modern age - frankly, there's just no excuse for it.
  2. PRENNTACULAR VIP

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2005
    star 6
    That conversation has been going on in mainstream Christianity for a while now, too. I'd say at this point, there are probably at least as many annihilationists or Christian universalists in the evangelical world as there are those who hold the more traditional, eternal damnation viewpoint.
  3. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    annihilationist does sound pretty cool.
  4. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    So Adam and Eve were alive before the year 200000 BC? Because that is the age of the oldest human remains that have been found so far. And please explain the existence of dinosaur bones.
  5. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    OK, from what you asked it sounds like you believe in evolution, that life on Earth evolved over millions of years.

    I can accept that some species will undergo minor changes in responses to changes in their habitats or circumstances (microevloution), but the larger scale and more widely ranging macroevolution I do not believe in. It is quite clear that all forms of life were created distinct from each other; a cell did not evolve into a reptile, or an ape into a human. It is flatly impossible. The time span from the Creation to Christ can't be more than 4,00 years, possibly 5 or 6,000, at the most. As for the existence of dinosaur bones, dinosaurs were not created millions of years before man, only a few days before They walked the earth at the same time as man. What you don't realize is that catastrophic events such as the Flood fossilized dinosaur bones and the like. Plus, I believe dinosaurs were mentioned, though under a different name, in writings such as Job.

    @timmoishere, do you still think Austin Cline's articles should be taken as truth?
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Aug 4, 2013
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  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    PPOR. And cite a source other than the Bible as your proof, please. I'm pretty sure @timmoishere can cite more than one source from an accredited scientist as his proof that the earliest human remains were found in 200000 BC and that dinosaur bones are much, much older than that. If your word is to be taken as fact over his, I am sure you can cite an accredited scientist as proof for your claims as well.

    And no, the writers of the Bible did not have any sort of degree in science.
  7. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Wow, you actually believe the earth is only 6000 years old despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think evolution is wrong, please write your paper, get it peer reviewed, and I'm sure your Nobel Prize will be coming shortly. A scientific discovery as massive as the one you are proposing would surely rock the entire world.

    And you clearly don't understand evolution at all if you think it's a "ape-to-human" model. Apes and humans share a common ancestor circa 200000 years ago that was neither ape nor human.
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  8. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    There's no practical distinction between "microevolution" and "macroevolution," or at least one cannot exist without the other. "Microevolution"-- "small" changes-- leads to "big" changes such as new species over thousands and millions and billions of years.

    Also, dinosaurs are not extinct. Every bird that has ever existed is a theropod dinosaur evolved over tens of millions of years.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, Aug 4, 2013
  9. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    You realize that the vast majority of scientific evidence contradicts young earth creationism, right?
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  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Here is a simple proof that debunks the 6000 year hypothesis: we have telescopes that can detect galaxies billions of light years away. We couldn't do this unless those galaxies existed billions of years ago.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  11. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    what if god just put them there to **** with you tho?
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  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7

    I'm actually sort of expecting someone to put that response forth in complete seriousness.

    I'm not an atheist, but I can't wrap my brain around believing every word of a religious book in the face of multiple peer-reviewed scientific publications that contradict it.
  13. Zapdos Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2013
    star 5
    evolution is fact
    how else would you explain all the monkeys posting on the internet or walking the streets
  14. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    @Lord Vivec, @anakinfansince1983, @timmoishere, @Darth Guy, you won't accept proof unless you can see it with your own eyes.

    The Bible, first and foremost, makes mention of dinosaurs, though they are known by another name, Leviathan. It is made clear that the first physical death occured when after sin entered the world through Adam's fall; "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin." (Romans 5:12). God alone created the heavens and the earth. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1). God and Satan are real and Satan has temporary control of this world, but when the time comes he will be judged. Jesus Christ is the sinless Messiah and Son of God, and only through believing that He died for our sins and rose from the dead will we have eternal life.

    You keep asking me to provide proof. The Bible is far more and far better proof than any theories a flawed humanity can come up with - because it was written by God using human agents who transcribed His words accurately as He moved them. Archaeology and science should provide support to the Biblical records, not the other way around.

    I feel sorry for all of you. You're so blinded to the truth that you won't even consider my words. But mark me, there will come a day when we will all stand before God's throne and answer to Him for what we've done on Earth. I hope I will be found to be a true servant and be admitted into His Kingdom, but you and all those like you may well find the encounter not to your liking. If I were you, I would seriously take a look at His Word and what it says, or you'll be lost forever.
  15. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    well that is the advantage of arguing for the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, unknowable being. she can do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, for whatever reason
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Aug 4, 2013
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I haven't used this one outside the Movie and TV forums but I definitely think it's warranted here.

    Oh hell. [face_rofl]
  17. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    You are the one that is blinded by your faith. The bible is an ancient book, riddled with inaccuracies. All scientific knowledge contradicts the story of creation, so this proves that the story of creation is wrong.
  18. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I wasn't asking you to "prove" anything, SkywalkerNumbers. I corrected you on a misunderstanding of evolution, albeit one that just about every creationist holds.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I was the one who asked her to prove it using an accredited scientific source. And got preached a sermon in response, which is pretty telling, not to mention hilarious.

    Seems that if there were an accredited scientific source proving creationism and young Earth theory, the creationists/young Earth theorists would be eager to cite it, would they not? As opposed to citing the Bible as proof of what the Bible says?

    But...but...something about scientists needing to read the Bible first and throw out every theory they find that contradicts the Bible. Mmmmmkay.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Aug 4, 2013
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  20. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    maybe the sole reason god placed the galaxies as they are is so that @timmoishere could use that information in the year 2013 CE on a star wars messageboard to tempt fellow user @Skywalker8921 away from the righteous path of jesus christ, albiet in full knowledge that she would reject this information and seek further solace in the bible, remaining on the path until her death in a hovertrain accident in the year 2043 CE caused by faulty programming written for the train by a manic-depressive @Darth Guy while embroiled in a heated discussion about the implications of Neo-Chewbacca for transgender acceptance on the Episode XVI board of New Jedi Council Forums, the successor site to the JC on the World Wide Grid

    god is basically rube goldberg writ large
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Aug 4, 2013
  21. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    This is quite a ways from where we began our discussion. Then, you were insisting that Christianity didn't make sense, because rather than sending someone to Hell, one could simply "not create them." But while Bull Connor need not suffer in order for his children to exist, he does have to have existed in the first place so that he could sire them. Having given up that argument, I think you've come to something more honest now. It's not that there's anything incoherent about Christianity as a religion. It's that you simply don't like what the religion teaches. That's perfectly fine, but it's a distinct thing.

    I never said it was your only complaint. I simply noted how absurd the complaint was. It's like rejecting general relativity because it's not poetic enough, or saying The Godfather II is a bad film because it fails as a comedy. What point is their to measuring a religious creation story by modern biology, a standard it quite clearly never tried to meet?

    Hmm. This is probably the most intriguing point in the thread to date. I have to admit I haven't taken time to piece through it in detail before. But if you'll excuse me for embarrassing myself, I'll think aloud about the approach I'd take. It seems easiest to fix the timeline where we have single leaders. So Moses's tenure should be easy to establish, knowing that he left Midian at age 80. Likewise, we can lock in the length of time that Joshua led. On the other end, Solomon's reign was uncontested, so we have at least those four years. Where I think we could run into trouble is how people count the oft-flirted but never quite realized civil war between Benjamin and Judah at the beginning of David's reign. The Judges are another major point of difficulty, and I saw you mentioned that there are probably major and minor ones. That seems reasonable. Have you considered the possibility of, erm, co-Judgeships? Especially for those who only had one major noted event (eg Deborah) it is perhaps the case that the end of their stated time overlaps with the next one serving? Have you been able to work out much so far?

    It's certainly one of the most intriguing historical periods. I think there's a lot going in the late David/Saul interactions especially. Really lets you dig into these issues of the multiple implications of God's will, and our own duties in that regard.
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    As Darth Guy said, the only evolution is, in your words, "microevolution." It just keeps adding up, and when you believe that life has been around for billions of years, you can understand how there can be such diversity. The view that the Earth is 6000 years old was not a universal belief among early Christians or Jews, and Jesus never spoke about that kind of subject. It's a theory created by a Christian priest. It is possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution, and the big bang. Believing in a young Earth is not one of the commandments Jesus gave us. Jesus often spoke in parables... if God inspired the books of the Old Testament, how can you be sure that God wasn't speaking in parables for some of those stories too?
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  23. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    Young Earth Creationism finds its roots in the works of Bishop Urshur, in particular his hit single "U Remind Me", wherein he analyzes kinship trees put forth in the bible together with "how fine u r, gurl" to come to the conclusion that moment of Creation occurred on the night before Sunday, October 23, 4004 BCE.

    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Aug 4, 2013
  24. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    You know you've won an argument with a Christian when they resort to barely veiled threats of hell and how sorry they feel for you for not sharing their own world view.
  25. Rogue_Ten Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2002
    star 7
    as reluctant as i am to declare anyone a "winner" itt, that's probably true
    Last edited by Rogue_Ten, Aug 4, 2013