Christianity - For Those Who Don't Understand

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by V8ER_H8ER, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    No, not at all.

    Literal times are very mistaken in my view. Why have exact times like 7 years or 1000 years? That doesn't make sense. Symbolism is heavy in Revelation, and I believe it speaks almost entirely about events that have already come to pass.
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    And yet you must understand that many Christians believe it speaks of times that are still to come...
  3. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Sure :). It's the majority viewpoint in Christianity.
  4. V8ER_H8ER Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 1998
    star 4
    Hmmm, I'm curious about the idea that it already happend...

    The writter of Revelation, we know for a fact, was an apostle. He wrote it about 2000 years ago. From that time until now when was 3/4 of the world destroyed? Or how about Jesus judging the nations of the world? The Anti-Christ has come already? A new heaven and a new earth have been created? All these things happen in the book of Revelation. I think that this is why most Christians agree with the idea that these times described have yet to come.
  5. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    It has been awhile since I've discussed this stuff, so I'm way out of practice. I'll just say that there are many scholars who hold to the belief that Revelation has mostly already happened, and is symbolic for prior events.
  6. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    I always thought it was John who wrote the book of Revelation. At least, that's what I remember reading.
  7. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yes, it was John, commonly believed to be the Apostle John.
  8. Jedi_Master_Isaiah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 2
    There are many ways to interpret the symbolism of Revelation.

    Some say it symbolizes how the Roman Empire persecuted Christians. Nero started this, and he might be the beast.

    Others say that it symbolizes future events. There have been many antichrists. Nero, Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, and many other evil monsters have been antichrists.

    The antichrist in Revelation is said by some to be the very incarnation of Satan. While God was born a human as a baby, Satan is believed to he planning to bring back to life an assassinated leader who is famous and admired. After this apparent shot wound is healed, the world will think he has risen from the dead. But Satan will become a satanic trinity, and he shall rule the world. He shall force all humans to wear a mark of some kind. He shall kill Christians and many others in a genocide. God shall send devestating plagues upon the world. When Jesus returns, He shall destroy Satan forever.

    I am convinced that no one but God knows what Revelation truly means. I don't know what the book really means, and am open all theories. Whatever the case, the whole point of the Second Coming is that Jesus will defeat Satan.
  9. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    Christianity is both simple and complicated, hard and easy, in my mind...

    It can be boiled down to the core, which is Christ, the Son of God, taking on the punishment for our sin so that we could have a direct connection to God without ritual, rule or 'religion' (what a thought - Jesus died to abolish religion) and so that we, imperfect and unholy, could spend eternity with a holy God, our Creator.

    That is really all any human needs to know - the more complex bits of the theology can be explained (and for anyone interested in that, I'd reccomend Mere Christianity by CS Lewis, he deals out how it is, no strings/denomination/'religion' attached)... but it all comes up to a point where we can't, with our limited human minds, explain any further. Because honestly, if we could fathom every motive and reason behind God and the universe, what kind of God would He be? Pretty pathetic, if mere human intellect can match He who created it.

    That's how I see things, anyway.
  10. Lianna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    Jesus did not die to abolish religion nor did he die so that man could serve God without ritual or rule. Other than dying for our sins, the Bible says that Jesus died to fulfill the law and that the law was a tutor leading up to the Christ. In ancient times, a tutor was someone who would walk beside a student and protect him as he went to school. That is what the law did. It proteceted the Jews with its many regulations such as the dietary and hygeine regulations. The law also forshadowed Christ with its sacrifices. Jesus fufilled the Law, he did not abolish it. :)

    Further, Jesus sent us God's Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as some feel more comfortable calling it. Under the direction of this Holy Spirit the Apostles of old established an organization of Christians whose main goal was the spreading of the Gospel of Christ. It was a real organization with leadership and rules. Jesus established the foundation of a religion, the Christian relgion.

    Many are turned off by this notion as they look at the divisions among the many Christian relgions today. It is important to remember that it was man, not God that divided the Christian congregation by teaching thier own thoughts and not that of God's. If you read the Bible you will find that this was beginning to happen even while the Bible was being written. Paul said the when he left, ravenous wolved would come in and not treat the congregation well.

    Jesus himself prophesied about this "Apostacy" when he spoke of the parable of the "Wheat and The Weeds." In that parable it was said that the wheat and the weeds were allowed to grow together so that it would be easy to discern the wheat from the weeds. When this time came, the weeds would be rooted out. Well the "wheat" symbolizes true Christians and the "weeds" symbolizes false Christians. These two would be allowed to grow together until God's appointed time so that the difference between the true christians and the false would be manifest. At God's appointed time, the false would be weeded out.

    The time of growing together would begin with the death of the Apostles, who were holding back the apostacy, and would continue until those, who by thier actions showed themselves to be True Christians and who endeavored to worship God with Spirit and Truth manifest themselves and then the True Christian congregation would be restored.
  11. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    I thought Revelations was written to scare people.
  12. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I thought Revelations was written to scare people.

    There is nothing scary in Revelation. Just confirmation.
  13. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    Lianna, I meant ritual in the sense of the Old Covenant. The Holy Veil was torn when Jesus was resurrected, was it not? That was the purpose of the New Covenant, we now have a direct connection to God because of Jesus, we no longer have to go through a priest, etc...

    I did not mean at all that Christ abolished the Law, he fulfilled it and the prophecies, as you said.
  14. phantom31415 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 1
    There are 3 main interpretations of Revelation. (As far as I know)

    1. Metaphorical: Presents a metaphorical picture of something. The details aren't meant as fact.

    2. Historical: Describes the history of the church.

    3. Literal: Describes the end times.

    I lean towards the literal side. However, I don't think specifics can be predicted well by us. I think that revelation was intended for the people who will actually live in those times, and will make full literal sense only to them. We can only see the general idea clearly.

    However, I think that the other 2 views may both be true in a way. Many Bible passages have several layers of meaning. It is easily possible that all three views are correct.
  15. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    Christianity is both simple and complicated, hard and easy, in my mind...

    That's a good way of putting it. I agree, sometimes when I think it's simple there is always something else that will make it complicated. I do believe though that christianity is simple in fact that we have one man who is the cornerstone of our faith: Christ. The Bible is filled with such rich knowledge, and interpretations of thought. I think it's a life-long process, understanding the Christian text known as the Bible.
  16. TheWraith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Me think you should learn more about forgiveness from the Bible, Wormie...

    I think we should do away with the vast amount of religious threads in this board. Am I mistaken, or is this a Star Wars message forum? Those of you want to talk religion or christianity, go to a board that caters for that, I agree with KnightWriter.
  17. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I think we should do away with the vast amount of religious threads in this board. Am I mistaken, or is this a Star Wars message forum? Those of you want to talk religion or christianity, go to a board that caters for that, I agree with KnightWriter.

    [tangent]I always find the comments about this being a "Star Wars forum" being a reason not to have other discussions funny. The Senate Floor was created to provide a place for serious, non-Star Wars discussions (hence the no Star Wars rule here). I've never seen these boards as a Star Wars forum, but rather a place for Star Wars lovers to get together to talk.

    I am a member of several other organizations. Take IEEE, for example. It is focused on electrical engineering, but when I get together with my friends from IEEE, we have all manner of discussions (renging from books to movies to woodworking, etc.). Occasionally, we even mention engineering.[/tangent]

    Kimball Kinnison
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    There is nothing at all wrong with religious threads here. It's just that there shouldn't be too many of them, and the same goes for any other subject.

    The Senate is a place for discussion of religious, political and related subjects. The JC has a broader range than just Star Wars discussion.
  19. JediStryker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2000
    star 4
  20. Force of Nature Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 3
    I'm hoping some of the Baptists who've posted here can help me with something about their beliefs that I'm not sure I understand correctly. I've read that they disapprove of infant baptism and it seems they believe a person should only be baptised when s/he is already a believer. I've also read that baptism is regarded as symbolic. What I've not been able to find spelled out is, what happens to a person who dies before s/he is old enough to be baptised. Could someone help me on this, please?
  21. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I'm hoping some of the Baptists who've posted here can help me with something about their beliefs that I'm not sure I understand correctly. I've read that they disapprove of infant baptism and it seems they believe a person should only be baptised when s/he is already a believer. I've also read that baptism is regarded as symbolic. What I've not been able to find spelled out is, what happens to a person who dies before s/he is old enough to be baptised. Could someone help me on this, please?


    I shall try. Baptists dedicate our children at an early age instead of baptizing them. The purpose for this is that we believe you should come to Christ of your own accord and accept him as your savior. By having your parent's baptize you at an early age, they are saying that you are going to be raised a Christian, but that choice was not yours. Baptists do accept the Baptism of a child in other denominations (we aren't the evil people some make us out to be) but believe that it must be a choice made by oneself, and not made by another.


    I was born into a Lutheran faith and was "Christened" (synonomous with baptized, although in the Baptist denomination it has different connotations) two months after my birth. When I joined the Baptist church, I was baptized in a public display of my faith in Christ.


    As far as baptism being symbolic, it is just that, a public display that you have accepted Christ, done after you have come to know Him.

    Therefore, if you have accepted Christ and not been Baptized, you cannot be a member of the Baptist church. I had a problem with this as I thought being baptized when younger was enough. After much praying I realized that what had been done for me in my youth was a public display of my parent's intending me to be raised in Christ, and the baptism I had as an adult was the completion of my parent's goal.


    As far as people dying prior to Baptism, if they have accepted Christ they are saved, if not, I personally believe if it is a child they are accepted into Heaven. This may differ from my fellow Baptists, and they may be able to shed more light on the subject.
  22. Force of Nature Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 3
    Thanks, Maveric.

    I was particularly thinking about children because I remember being taught that, because of original sin, the only way to be sure they would go to heaven was for them to be baptised. I've been trying to find out a bit more about this and your personal belief seems to be fairly widely shared, that those who die before the age of accountability are saved. Sounds logical to me.
  23. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    What you are saying sounds more like a Lutheran belief than a Baptist one. Lutherans push for baptism so early because they believe that once a child is born, they are doomed to Hell without baptism.
  24. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I was particularly thinking about children because I remember being taught that, because of original sin, the only way to be sure they would go to heaven was for them to be baptised.

    As far as I know, Baptists believe that accepting Christ is what saves you, and baptism is just a public proclamation of your faith. If you're not baptised, you still go to heaven, because accepting Christ is the key thing.


    I personally believe if it is a child they are accepted into Heaven. This may differ from my fellow Baptists, and they may be able to shed more light on the subject.

    I was taught that there was an "age of reckoning", when a child becomes able to understand their plight (born a sinner) and can become a believer. Most believe that a child who dies before that point is taken into heaven, because they never had a chance to choose whether or not to believe. However, there is nothing in the Bible to back this up.
  25. Talon_Karrde_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 4
    Wombery - You make good points and I agree with you. Unfortunately, like you said the Bible doesn't actually say anything about the "age of reckoning", though I do believe that God in his mercy will save those too young to understand.


    D-'-,-'-,'-,-- Karrde
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