Christianity - For Those Who Don't Understand

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by V8ER_H8ER, Aug 27, 2002.

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  1. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Peace to you,
    I was surfing around and this thread caught my eye. I read all 3 pages,a LOT fo stuff to go through.
    First the Book of Revelation (not revelations) was written by John, it's the Revelation of jesus Christ as given to John. It's prophecy is what is to come. It's a warning to the belivers to guard their hearts, minds and spririts from the subtle tricks of the enemy that'd bring them astray (Great falling away of the elect) It warns the non-beliver of whats to come.
    Revelation is metephorical, in places, but also literal speaks of the present (then it was future) and the future to come, but still hope is at the end of the book.

    I can give examples of the literal and metiphorical places if you want.
    Above it all HE's in control, but he does give us humans a free will and being who He is Jesus won't violate our wills.


    Thanks for bring thsi subject up, :D

    Jauhzmynn
  2. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    That is what the law did. It proteceted the Jews with its many regulations such as the dietary and hygeine regulations.

    But there were myriad laws and regulations on things that are still important that have nothing to do with 'protection' and everything to do with righteous living: justice, relationships with and to others, compassion for animals, etc. The vast majority of the laws in the Pentateuch are actually still very much influencial on modern civilization.

    My question is: what are the Christian ideas that could influence how the hygiene regulations could be any less 'logical' today? And how were the laws of kashrut 'protecting' anyone then, yet not considered necessary today?

  3. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Humm, well Born again christians may not HAVE to follow kosher laws, unless they want too. It's not a requirement. Paul said Jewish belivers who praciced Kosher laws weren't wrong, he also said Gentiles who got saved weren't wrong in NOT following Kosher laws. He did say they shouldn't eat food sacraficed to idols though. Jesus didn't abolish the Law but fulfilled it. The Bible says the law is a school master, it shows us what's sin and how to live properly.

    I found out I was accidently following kosher laws w/o realising it. :D

    I don't eat pork much, not cuz i'm following kosher, cuz I don't really like it, same w/ BBque ribs. I hate having to pick it out of my teeth :D
    I'd tried to many BAD recipes, I gave it up.

    Peace to you guys and ladies.:D

    Jauhzmynn
  4. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    In one of the Gospels, I do remember Jesus saying that that which goes into the mouth and out of the body doesn't destroy the soul. It's that which comes out of your heart that destroys the soul, your sin--not food that you merely put in your mouth and disgested.
  5. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Humm, well Born again christians may not HAVE to follow kosher laws, unless they want too. It's not a requirement. Paul said Jewish belivers who praciced Kosher laws weren't wrong, he also said Gentiles who got saved weren't wrong in NOT following Kosher laws.

    Anyone can keep kosher if they want, but only Jews are or were ever required to. In both pre- and post-Jesus days there is no command for non-Jews to follow kashrut. The only law for gentiles that regards eating at all is actually a law commanding compassion for animals, not a dietary restriction. It is one of the seven Noahide laws, a negative law that commands that one ?not eat a limb taken from an animal that still lives?.

    In one of the Gospels, I do remember Jesus saying that that which goes into the mouth and out of the body doesn't destroy the soul. It's that which comes out of your heart that destroys the soul, your sin--not food that you merely put in your mouth and disgested.

    I remember that statement, and totally agree. I don?t think the laws of kashrut were intended to be followed in order to achieve salvation (save the soul). This was a statement that clearly highlights the ideas Jesus had about following the letter of the law to the point of forgetting WHY Jews were following the letter of the law, to the detriment of having compassion for humanity. To this day, it is not considered a sin to break kashrut if it is done in order to survive. For instance, if a Jew is starving, and all there is to eat is pork, by all means he should eat the pork rather than die. Many Jews in the ghettos during the Holocaust survived to live another day by eating horsemeat, also off-limits by the laws of kashrut.

    Still, in both responses I?ve received so far (and thanks Jauhzmynn and WormieSaber) I?ve heard nothing that says there is some Christian interpretation of the OT that says such laws as kashrut were intended to protect the Jews from something?but what is the something? I wanted some verification that is isn?t just an often individual attempt to find some humanly understandable logic in illogical rules. Trust me, Jews have been doing that for millenia, and guess what?.. there really isn?t any. :)

    But there are PLENTY of rabbinical ?eurekas?! :D
  6. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Well, in my church we have a health code that we call the Word of Wisdom. Much like Kosher, it proscribes us from consuming certain things while encouraging us to eat other things.

    The Word of Wisdom teaches us not to use coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco or harmful drugs. Why do we obey it? Is it because coffee and tea have caffeine? Is it because alcohol, tobacco and other drugs can be addictive? If you ask some members of the Church, the answer to those questions is "yes".

    However, the real reason we obey the Word of Wisdom is because God told us to and we want to be obedient. He has never said exactly why (again, much like the Kosher laws), only that we should obey.

    Kimball Kinnison
  7. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    Let's hear a big "hooray!" for blind obedience!
  8. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Let's hear a big "hooray!" for blind obedience!

    I never said it was blind obedience. All I did is point out that while many people provide various justifications and interpretations why we obey the Word of Wisdom, the real reason is that we were asked to.

    Personally, I obey it more than anything for a few other reasons:

    1) Caffeine has a reverse effect on me, putting me to sleep.
    2) Alcohol is what killed my grandfather and nearly killed my father (before he joined the Church). Also, I have had several friends killed by drunk driving.
    3) I am mildly allergic to tobacco smoke (giving me migranes in moderate to high concentrations).
    4) I have seen the effects of harmful drugs first-hand and want nothing to do with them.

    The Word of Wisdom was given in 1839, before anyone really knew about the harmful effects of any of these substances (with the possible exception of alcohol). It has been shown that obeying it really does make you healthier. I fail to see how that implies that it is "blind obedience".

    Kimball Kinnison
  9. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    No, those rules make sense, I hold myself to some of them(I don't drink or smoke tobacco), but the idea I got from your post was that even if it didn't make sense, you'd do it, which seems like blind obedience to me.
  10. Jauhzmynn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Humm well I don't drink alcohol cuz i don't like theeffects or it's taste. Don't do drugs I'd seen my brother's mind and body ruined by them, but I didn't like the way marajana smelled. It made me sick. Nasty stuff all of it.

    Caffineated products, well I go like to drink coffe but I don't drink a lot of it, maybe 1 or 2 cupa week IF that, usually in the morning if I do. Sodas I rarly drink, too sweet.
    Smoking-forget it, Messes everything up. :(
    Even messes the person's body chemistry and mind up. Both my parents smoked, My dad had 2 heart attacks before he got the message to stop it.


    Only "thing" I want to influnce me is GOd himself and I know He's not going to screw it up.


    Peace be yours
    Jauhzmynn

  11. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    No, those rules make sense, I hold myself to some of them(I don't drink or smoke tobacco), but the idea I got from your post was that even if it didn't make sense, you'd do it, which seems like blind obedience to me.

    Is it blind obedience for a person to trust someone who knows more than they do? If I explain to you how a web server works, and you don't understand, is it blind obedience? No. It is trust.

    Blind obedience would be obeying without any question whatsoever. What I was referring to is how we have never been given the reason, only told to trust that it is right. You know what? It has been pretty much proven right.

    Kimball Kinnison
  12. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    However, the real reason we obey the Word of Wisdom is because God told us to and we want to be obedient. He has never said exactly why (again, much like the Kosher laws), only that we should obey.

    Exactly. Although we are supposed to keep kosher "because God said so", that doesn't stop us from trying to figure out why - which is in effect questioning God.

    "To be holy as God is holy" is such a weird statement, which makes us have to figure out what is 'holy'? The idea is that holy = distinct and separate, as opposed to profane = common and everyday. Eating is often a social as opposed to a solo activity, and eating foods different from the norm among non-Jews makes socializing over shared meals more difficult, (I can vouch for this) therefore helping keep the Jews 'separate' and ultimately less likely to be influenced by people of other religions who have no such restrictions.

    There are many other ideas about why certain animals are off limits to eat, but the above idea is the most pragmatic one I know of. But is it the real answer? We won't know until we can ask God in person. :)

    EDIT: I just realized I have somewhat answered my own previous question: And how were the laws of kashrut 'protecting' anyone then, yet not considered necessary today?

    It was the idea that keeping kosher is not considered necessary today that stumped me. I was at first thinking in terms of the common yet misguided assumption that kashrut was for 'health reasons' and since we are 'smarter' now, they're unnecessary. This is not the protection needed then or now. The 'protection' needed is still to prevent influence which can lead to intermarriage, which leads to loss of Jews and ultimately their progeny through assimilation.

    So, yes, within this context of interpretation, kashrut is still necessary for 'protection' of the Jewish people and their religion.
  13. V8ER_H8ER Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 1998
    star 4
    Kimball_Kinnison, I take it you are a LDS? If I remember the WoW is a LDS document. Sorry, I haven't read the ever popular Morman thread yet.
  14. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    I don't see any harm in following the Word of Wisdom. If you believe it is good for you, then do it. I drink coffee every morning and I'd probably be half asleep at work if I didn't.
  15. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    My motto is "a cup a day keeps the sleepys away".

    I'm glad coffee is kosher. Well, except during Passover,... but the laws are a whole nother ball of wax that week. :p
  16. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Kimball_Kinnison, I take it you are a LDS? If I remember the WoW is a LDS document. Sorry, I haven't read the ever popular Morman thread yet.

    Yes, I am LDS, but the same principle applies in all branches of Christianity (and other religions). We aren't always given the reason behind a commandment, but we are asked to trust that God does know what He's doing.

    Kimball Kinnison
  17. _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 4



    Has anyone else noticed the title of this thread reads somthing along the lines of;


    Christianity - For Those Who Don't Understand

    is as to

    Astro Physics - For Those Who are Comatose




    Read the threads title slowwwly. :D


  18. _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 4
    "LDS"?! Say it ain't so.

    Not you Kimball? Leave the drugs alone.



    (Remember this is National Be Tolerant of Idiots Day. :D)


    If this has been Kimball on drugs, imagine him after detox. Whoa! ;)
  19. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    "LDS"?! Say it ain't so.

    Not you Kimball? Leave the drugs alone.

    (Remember this is National Be Tolerant of Idiots Day. )

    If this has been Kimball on drugs, imagine him after detox. Whoa!


    Ha, Ha. That's LDS, not LSD. I've never used drugs in my life. When I said that I had seen their effects first-hand, it is because I have watched friends destroy their lives through drug use. One friend was killed in a drive-by shooting because he was mistaken for someone who owed money for drugs. I, personally, will never touch the vile things.

    The only drug I use is chocolate. ;)

    Kimball Kinnison
  20. Beren Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 1998
    star 2
    Interesting topic. I take the study of the Bible, both Torah and the New Testament very seriously, not so much from a spirital standpoint anymore, but more for the historical aspects found within. I also love mythology, and thought some of you might be interested in some of the observations I have made over they years. Please forgive the spelling and grammar mistakes in advance.

    If anyone is interested I was raised a Southern Baptist, but am considered by many of my Christain friends to be a flaming heretic on the way to that great brimstone pit now. I personally consider myself halfway between an agnostic and a skeptic with a Christain humantarian flavor. Like Hegel, I am not concerned with the veracity of the Bible. Stories hold truth regardless of whether they happened or not, like the parables of Jesus. I don't give a damn about the afterlife either, all that matters to me is how we live this life, and it seems to me that Jesus gave us some very good advice about that as well.

    Anyway, on the debate about angels and Lucifer and the afterlife for that matter, it is important to remember that from Abraham to the Babylonian incursion and Dispersion of the Tribes of Israel, there was not much emphasis on the afterlife, angels, or celestial wars. In fact the term angel did not even make its appearence in the Torah until after the Babylonian captivity of the Israelites. Although current Old Testaments now use the word Angel of the Lord to describe the interaction of God and the covenent of Abraham, the orginal translations described the 'angels' as visitors and as glowing men in robes of shining light. I know not much of a distinction between that an angel, but from a linguistic standpoint it is important. And no where was Abraham promised life after death, his legacy would be his line of decendants. Abraham took solace in the fact that his line would be as numerous as the stars, not that he would one day walk through the pearly gates. Yes we had the serpent and we had Satan, but as already pointed out, Satan was a member of God's Heavenly court. Hebrew folktales say that Satan was created because man was lazy and only through trial and tribulation would man achieve his potential...thus the origin of cosmic evil and maybe natural evil too if you will, to compliment Adam's fall.

    What all this gets at, is that Israel did not develop the orders and cosmic alignment of angels until after being dominated by the Babylonians. What becomes intresting to me is that suddenly Hebrew folklore develops this massive cosmic war in Heaven, the orders of lesser and greater angels and demons and in detail they mimic the Babylonian system, which in turn was based on Sumerian astrological tradition. True the system Israel developed was different in flavor, retaining key concepts like Jehovah being the one true God, and all the other figures being lesser beings on the cosmic scale, but it is very similar to other systems. It is also at this time that Noah's tale starts to crop up, and everyone knows that the Sumerians had their own Noah in Gilgamesh...

    It is important to note that while I may believe that these stories were dervived from other sources and cultures in the ancient world, that that makes them somehow invalid and therefore of little use. I do not. In fact while many teach the Old Testament as just Jewish history to get us to Jesus, I find the stories of pride and fall and the nature of man in general to be as important as the New Testament and are important from the standpoint that they reveal the mistakes of our ancestors and hold truths we should learn in order not to continue to make the same mistakes in the future.

    One side note that should be of interest to Star Wars fans is that there is one Hebrew folktale that describes a different version of Abram rescuing Sarai from the Bandit Kings as they begin there journey from Sumner. In this version, Abram is distraught at the loss of his wife and falling down to the ground in lamentation is suddenly interupted by a man cloaked to hide his features.
  21. DarthPhelps Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2002
    star 5
    Master-Aries wrote (in another thread):

    If one is true to the belief it is not necessary to recruit others unless one is insecure within ones self.

    I believe, based on what I've read in the Senate thus far, that the philosophy of 'saving' is a wholly Christian one, so I thought that perhaps this question belonged here.

    It isn't that Christians feel that we need larger numbers to validate ourselves. Nor do we think that Jesus is merely the head of a way-cool club and we need to get more members to join, because it gives us a discount on Tuesday lunches. Basically, Christians believe that we live in a state of not having a right connection with God, thanks to sin. Not to go into the philosophy of crucifiction, Jesus' death allows those who have accepted Him to become 'saved' from an eternity of this separation from God.

    One of the main teachings of Jesus is to 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Aside from this, Jesus commanded that His people "spread the good news" of this salvation. So the reason for trying to 'recruit' people isn't a selfish or insecure one. It is an act of obedience, as well as (and mostly) a desire to have as many of our brothers and sisters to join in with the fellowship. The prodigal son parable is like this, and if one were to retell the tale to cover this subject, it would be like the father telling his son who stayed at home to go forth and find his wayward siblings and bring them home where they will be loved, and a celebration held in their honor.
    :)

    That's my take on it, anyway. I've never studied theology. I'm just one of your run-of-the-mill Christians.

    Edit: use of the term 'club' is not related to the previous post. that's pure coincidence. it is born of the usage of the term 'recruit' from the post I'm responding to.
  22. WormieSaber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2000
    star 5
    In terms of Christian salvation being a bribe, I don't think the intent of the Christian doctrine was "you do this for me and then I will give this to you".... It is very explicit about salavation... it's a free gift. You don't have to earn your salvation. Christ paid the price for you when he died up on the cross for you. Becoming a Christian (spritually-wise, I mean) is a priviledge, a gift and a transformation. There is also a hint in the idea that it is a calling; you are chosen. Once you believe and have been born-again (baptized by the Holy Spirit) you will be a new person under God, and that will automatically change your spirit, and perception on life, and it will enhance you...the deeds that you do in this world will change, you will no longer have the old desires that you used to have...basically, who you are changes. Jesus also spoke of pruning; in other words, he helps you grow into the type of person that he wants you to become throughout your life. He pruns a person like a gardener would a tree (trim the branches). In some regards, it is almost as if you have become a slave to God and your life is no longer your own...for you cahnge and you grow constantly as God sees fit. In fact, Paul mentioned in Ephesians somewhere that Christians are slaves of Christ. And it is nothing that we do by ourselves, but literally. It's all very interesting, and I think I have described it right....
  23. Beren Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 1998
    star 2
    While Jesus commanded us to go forth and spread the word...I always thought that at its heart it was a commandment to go out and teach the people of comapassion and the 'right' way to live among one another is this imperfect world. The 'right' way being the Golden Rule. Thus bringing Christ's kingdom to fruition. Today, the message seems to consist of only getting people to declare Christ as savior...yes I know this is a generalization and many Christian groups do so much more, but I can't help but feel in my soul that we have supplemented the original message of Jesus with exclusivity. See when I read the New Testament, I don't see Jesus concerned with the afterlife as much as teaching people how to live together in this life regardless of race, creed, or status. Saving people from the death of law with the spirit of compassion and understanding. Bringing moderation to the table so to speak. The argument of the noble savage who leads the life of the Golden rule, but fails to take Jesus as savior and thus being condemed to hell, is a reoccuring theme here with me.

    But today we have bypassed this argument becasue there are no noble savages, no good men, we are all branded with Adam's sin and are cut off as you mentioned. As for the issue of being cut off from God because of sin...Well I understand the idea, but what good is this life for then? See I can't accept that this life is of no more value than a test to see if we accept Jesus as savior and thus get into Heaven...This life has to have meaning on its own terms without the afterlife rearing its ugly head. Why mention the rewards of the afterlife at all if the true joy of being a Christian is serving Christ and God. Fear of seperation from family and friends who are not saved seems shallow in my mind because it implies that living by example is not enough and you must 'preach' your faith in order to get the 'word' through to some. Regardless of the flavor, all Christianity uses fear to some degree to enhance the importance of the 'word'. The question I have asked myself since I was 8 years old sitting in Sunday School is why if we are suppossed to serve God out of love, do we dwell in the shadow of fear?
  24. Beren Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 1998
    star 2
    Always found this quote fascinating:

    ?A God who could make good children as easily as bad yet preferred to make
    bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy
    one; who made them prize their bitter lives, yet stintingly cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives,
    yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths
    justice and invented Hell ? mouths mercy and invented Hell
    mouth golden rules, and forgiveness multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell;
    who mouths morals to others and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all;
    who created Man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for Man?s acts upon Man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs,upon himself;
    And finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor slave to Worship him.

    Mark Twain ? ?The Mysterious Stranger?
  25. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Simply put he (Mark Twain) didn't understand the concept of free will.
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