[Christianity]Morality vs. Forgiveness

This was prompted by a JCC thread asking whether Christians who had repented, but done wrong before they died would be received into heaven, sparking debate about moral good vs. forgiveness in Christianity. Here is my take, taken from an incompleted post before this thread was locked:

It's a bit annoying how people ignore the basic tenets of Christianity. The point is, hell is what we all deserve, every one of us. Some of us are fortunate enough to escape that, because no matter how good we are later we can't change the fact that we have sinned.

Jesus died because works, no matter how good, cannot save us from sin. If I beat you up and kick you in the face and kill your daughter, I can feel sorry about it later and do right and donate to all the charities in the world, but in the end I've still kicked you, and your daughter is still dead. As mortals we have no power to undo our own sins. We need Jesus. All he requires is that we ask. If that means that people who refuse to ask but have done good works are denied over those who have done less good works but has asked for that power that no one deserves to wipe away those sins by the grace of God, that's how it goes.

 

One of the things that was being discussed in that thread was whether an atheist who lived a good moral life and strived to help and care for his neighbors would go straight to hell simply because he did not believe in God, and whether a Christian who was a devout worshipper of God but killed people, raped, stole, went to adult clubs and etc. would go to heaven simply because he was...well...um...a devout Christian.

Okay, obviously the latter isn't true. Anyone who has even a meager understanding of who a devout Christian is would know that he would NEVER do those things in the first place. I really, really question the validity of that example.

The only way I could possibly ever buy that is if the "devout Christian" had mental health problems.

Now the atheist, I said, would go to heaven because like it or not he is living according to God's law, and will be rewarded accordingly.

I think some people don't understand a concept of "Talking the talk AND walking the walk". For heaven's sake, you are NOT going to go to heaven just because you call yourself a Christian while running around stabbing people, while evil atheist guy will go straight to the blackest and foulest tier of Hell after devoting his life to helping the destitute in India. To say otherwise would mean that God is easy to fool, and who here that believes in God would have the arrogance to say that? No, you must live like a Christian too, not simply call yourself one.

 

The Bible states that we're all sinners and regardless, we're deserving of death, but resurrection comes from the faith that Christ's death on the cross atoned for your sins. As long as you believe, you will be saved. The Bible is quite clear on this. Works, no matter how good they are, won't get you eternal life, period. It's your faith that gets you eternal life and it's from that same faith from which good works come from.

 

DeJade_Vu posted on 4/30/05 9:00pm

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Now the atheist, I said, would go to heaven because like it or not he is living according to God's law, and will be rewarded accordingly.

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It isn't just obeying God's law that gets you into heaven.

John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever [i]believeth in him[/i] shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."

You can sugar coat it all you want with whatever logic you wish to employ, but the Scripture supercedes you - it is faith [b]and[/b] repentance that saves you. You need [i]both[/i]. Repentence without faith is meaningless, because to repent you must confess to God. Faith without repentence is meaningless because you still live like you do not believe in God and you do not confess your sins. We all will stray from God's law in one way or another. The point is to believe and to confess and change.

 

Jesus died because works, no matter how good, cannot save us from sin. If I beat you up and kick you in the face and kill your daughter, I can feel sorry about it later and do right and donate to all the charities in the world, but in the end I've still kicked you, and your daughter is still dead. As mortals we have no power to undo our own sins. We need Jesus. All he requires is that we ask. If that means that people who refuse to ask but have done good works are denied over those who have done less good works but has asked for that power that no one deserves to wipe away those sins by the grace of God, that's how it goes.

This is partly true, and partly false.

It is true that Jesus did die because no amount of works can save you. No matter what, we have all sinned, and are therefore unworthy. Because God cannot tolerate the least amount of sin, none of us can be saved by ourselves.

However, it is not true that "all he requires is that we ask" to be saved. We have to do our part, as well. We cannot be saved by our works, but we cannot be saved in our sins either. We are commanded to repent of our sins. It is only if we repent that we can be cleansed of our sins. Consider Acts 3:19:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

From this, it is clear that our forgiveness is contingent on our repentence.

Repentence is more than just asking Jesus to forgive us. It literally means for us to turn away from sin. Asking for forgiveness is one part of it, but so is feeling remorse for your sins, and making restitution (as much as possible), and also turning away from your sins or abandoning them.

It is not so much how perfectly we have lived our lives that is important. A person can live an almost perfect and good life, but if he does not repent, he cannot be saved. Similarly, a person can live a very imperfect life, but as long as he keeps trying to obey the commandments and repents as best he can when he sins, he will be saved. It is the process, and the intent of your heart that God will judge you by.

One of the things that was being discussed in that thread was whether an atheist who lived a good moral life and strived to help and care for his neighbors would go straight to hell simply because he did not believe in God, and whether a Christian who was a devout worshipper of God but killed people, raped, stole, went to adult clubs and etc. would go to heaven simply because he was...well...um...a devout Christian.

I think a lot of this confusion comes because people mischaracterize the nature of God. God isn't some vengefull, hateful person, just looking for an excuse to lock you away for eternity. He is a loving, kind father who wants the best for you. Once you realize that all of us are sinners, and none of us is worthy on our own to live with God, and accept that God does love us, the truth becomes far more clear.

We are all cut off from God, but He will bless us any way he can. It is not that God is looking for any way to punish us, but that He is looking for any possible reason to bless us, both in this life and for all eternity. God loves each of us, no matter how bad we are, and He still wants to bless us for all of the good that we do (since no one is 100% evil all the time).

It's not that the "devout Christian" who lies, cheats, steals, etc will be damned and completely cut off because God is punishing him. He is cutting himself off from God instead. God will still bless him as much as he possibly can for the good things that he does. The same applies for the atheist who lives a good life (or even one who lives a bad life). I would say the same thing even about those who we see as "pure evil" (i.e. Hitler, Saddam, etc), because God still loves them and wants to bless them.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Forgive my cynicism, but that's exactly why I cannot accept Christianity. That only the people who think the right way have a chance to be saved (and obviosuly, act through this throught pattern). That everyone is damned from birth, lest God intervenes. Maybe it's foolish of me to rely on my own sense of right and wrong in this case, but everything about that screams injustice to me.

I cannot accept that a man who strives to do good all his life is still screwed in the end, because he never recognised the existence of God. Everyone's a sinner? If by that you mean everyone's a screw-up, you bet. Some recognise this, and try to better themselves because of it. Some of us do, and don't care. Some never do. And we're all, apparently, still doomed without that one proviso. That's what gets me.

Because, in the end, it simply sounds (to me) like a religion trying to justify it's own existence. It just seems... wrong.

 

Forgive my cynicism, but that's exactly why I cannot accept Christianity. That only the people who think the right way have a chance to be saved (and obviosuly, act through this throught pattern). That everyone is damned from birth, lest God intervenes.

It is goofy, but to be fair a large number of christians don't believe that. I think I've read before that half of all christians believe everyone goes to heaven. It really depends on how you view the bible. Do you believe it's infallible? Well if you do than chances are you believe that only those that are saved go to heaven. But even there there are many passages that point to other means to get into heaven, including baptism and just doing good works.

But regardless I'm sure everyone knows how I feel about christianity so I won't butt in just to say that Kimball's views don't necessarily represent christianity as a whole.

So go on.

 

Cyprusg, you can't take from the totality of passages in the Bible that "just doing good works" is enough to go to Heaven. Several of the prophets are fairly explicit on that point. As for baptism, if you take out the substance of the repentance and recognition of God, all your doing is getting wet. Which, if that were true, would mean you could get into Heaven by taking a shower or getting caught in the rain. I don't think you legitimately argue that that was ever the intention of anyone who even remotely claimed to be Christian, as it would obviate the need for the whole religion.

SlackJawed, you may disagree with what qualifies as "thinking/acting right" but I don't see why you feel the general principle is so terrible. All it's saying is that "In order to get the rewards of those who do right, you must do right." Almost everything has some sort of parameters or requirements to it. For instance, you have to actually work if you expect to get a pay check from your employer. I don't think that system is "terrible."

The more important issue, is, as you said, that someone can strive all their life to do good, and still be damned. And that is indeed a difficult thing. But the distinction that I think needs to be drawn is between "striving" to do the right thing and actually doing the right thing for every single moment of your life. As you said, we're all screw-ups, so no ones going to be able to do that. But fundamentally, we can't really undo any of the mistakes we made. We can reverse their effects and mend wounded feelings etc, but we cannot ever undo the bad things we've done. So I would say it's not so "unreasonable" when you consider it that way.

 

Everyone is not damned from birth. It's our own decisions that makes us fall short of the glory of God.

 

I am really tired, but just a few questions...

First off, the idea that everyone has sinned does not seem to make sense. What about a newborn baby? Has he/she sinned? If not, then he/she does not need forgiveness. Also if not, then there must be some point where he/she does sin, and where is that point? If they have sinned, please explain how that works because it does not make much sense to me.

Also, the whole idea of forgiveness and 'we are not worthy' together just seems like God forcing a lie on us. We are not worthy to be in an eternal relationship with Him, yet He is imposing a lie on us such that we will be with Him. I am getting the message that it is better to be dishonest and happy than to be truthful.

And how exactly does God fix our sins? In the example up top, if God would bring the girl back to life or (as some people have said in other places), God would completely erase the sin, then there is nothing we need to be forgiven for; the sin is corrected and gone. So how exactly does God fix our sins?

Also, there are some sins that we can fix here on earth (unless the answer to how is seriously different from what I think). Lets say Bob steals something. But later he returns it, says he is sorry (and means it), pays for damages, etc. The sin has been fixed. We do have some power in that regard. (Yes, we cannot bring little girls back to life, so our power is not absolute).

 

Cyprusg, you can't take from the totality of passages in the Bible that "just doing good works" is enough to go to Heaven. Several of the prophets are fairly explicit on that point.

But it wouldn't matter if you felt the bible wasn't infallible, because you could pick and choose any passages you want.

For instance many people use this to back up the idea of salvation through works.

Matthew 25:34-45 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels..."

As for baptism, if you take out the substance of the repentance and recognition of God, all your doing is getting wet.

Yes, if you take any spiritual proponent out of baptism it's all about getting wet. Of course that's right, so what the hell are you talking about? The water is SYMBOLIC, the ritual is purely spiritual.

James 2:24: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."Which, if that were true, would mean you could get into Heaven by taking a shower or getting caught in the rain.

What in the world are you talking about? That passage has NOTHING to do with baptism. It's about christians professing faith but not backing it up through works.

I don't think you legitimately argue that that was ever the intention of anyone who even remotely claimed to be Christian, as it would obviate the need for the whole religion.

So now you're saying that passage is wrong? Or are you saying that's wrong only because you mistakingly believe that has something to do with baptism? I think you can take that passage two ways, one is that works WITH faith will get you into heaven, or that you can't truely be a person of faith if you don't walk the walk.

I know many fundamentalist christians, if not most, that would agree that it's through faith AND works that you get into heaven.

 

It is not so much how perfectly we have lived our lives that is important. A person can live an almost perfect and good life, but if he does not repent, he cannot be saved. Similarly, a person can live a very imperfect life, but as long as he keeps trying to obey the commandments and repents as best he can when he sins, he will be saved. It is the process, and the intent of your heart that God will judge you by.

And that, in a nutshell, is the Jewish view of this topic.

And how exactly does God fix our sins? In the example up top, if God would bring the girl back to life or (as some people have said in other places), God would completely erase the sin, then there is nothing we need to be forgiven for; the sin is corrected and gone. So how exactly does God fix our sins?

Also, there are some sins that we can fix here on earth (unless the answer to how is seriously different from what I think). Lets say Bob steals something. But later he returns it, says he is sorry (and means it), pays for damages, etc. The sin has been fixed. We do have some power in that regard. (Yes, we cannot bring little girls back to life, so our power is not absolute).

This is a very good point. We believe there are two kinds of sins: sins against God and sins against man. Obviously, only God can forgive sins against God, such as blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath, etc. On the other hand, God can only forgive our sins against man after we have apologized to and made right with the person we sinned against. Once we have repented, been served justice in an appropriate manner within context of the affront, and obtained human forgiveness, then we are worthy of God's forgiveness.

Now obviously we have no control over another man's heart, so that last part can be a little tricky. If we have done everything we can to repent, make right to the best of our ability, and tried to obtain a person's forgiveness and the other person refuses to forgive, then the other person is now sinning by holding a grudge, and the need to be forgiven is deflected upon him instead.

 

Christianity is just like Islam, and Judaism, and every other religion: What it preaches is much different than how the people live it. Christians get a bad reputation because they don't always practice what they preach. I don't know if religious fanatics (like abortion clinic bombers and Islamic terrorists) actually believe in their religion, or just use it as an excuse, but Christianity overall is a very good thing for the world, and I wish they'd stop getting such a bad reputation.

 

EnforcerSG posted on 5/1/05 12:44am

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I am really tired, but just a few questions...

First off, the idea that everyone has sinned does not seem to make sense. What about a newborn baby? Has he/she sinned? If not, then he/she does not need forgiveness.

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A newborn would not need forgiveness. In fact, I think all children are considered to be immune from hell based on something Jesus said in his lifetime, but again I'm not God.

 

Forgive my cynicism, but that's exactly why I cannot accept Christianity. That only the people who think the right way have a chance to be saved (and obviosuly, act through this throught pattern). That everyone is damned from birth, lest God intervenes.

and

First off, the idea that everyone has sinned does not seem to make sense. What about a newborn baby? Has he/she sinned? If not, then he/she does not need forgiveness. Also if not, then there must be some point where he/she does sin, and where is that point? If they have sinned, please explain how that works because it does not make much sense to me.

Only some parts of Christianity accept the idea of Original Sin, and that everyone is a sinner from birth. If that were the case, why would Christ hold little children up as an example in Matt 19:13-14:

Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Little children are innocent because they cannot sin.

In order to sin, you need to do two things. First you have to know God's will (i.e. understand right and wrong) and then you have to choose to do wrong. Because little children do not understand the difference between right and wrong, they cannot sin, even when they transgress God's law.

Sin is rebellion against God's will, not simple disobedience. To rebel, you have to both know what you are rebelling against and also work against it. Without both parts, you cannot sin.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Cyprusg, I'll comment to the broader issues and to everyone else's posts later, but first I want to clear up what appears to be a grave miscommunication between us two.

In the first place, I don't know who you might've been talking too, but I never quoted or referenced James at all. In fact, I didn't quote any scripture in my post.

As long as you recognize the spiritual vlaue of baptism (which you've shown a good understanding of) then we're in agreement. My issue was the way you had framed the issue, saying that there were other wys "like baptism or just doing good works" that could get you into Heaven. I just wanted to make sure that everyone was on the same page with regard to the fact that the baptism has to be earnest, and is not merely a physical proccess/ritual that acts as a no-questions-asked, get out of jail free card. But again, since we're all in agreement on that point, then my comments are just a reiteration of something we've all already agreed upon.

As for James, I think the answer is that if you are truly a person of faith, then that should guide or influence your behavior (ie produce "works"). So I tend to think of James' point as the latter of the two options you brought up. I don't think there's a precedent to say "you must do X amount of good works for admission into Heaven." Rather, I think that it's, as you said, "if you believe, you will be motivated to do (and will in fact do) X good works."

So to conclude and review, I absolutely believe in the divine inspiration of the entire book of James, and the infallibility that implies. I agree with earlier posters here that faith produces works. My earlier comments were only an attempt to affirm that baptism's value was spiritual, and that it couldn't be used to "cheat the system." I apologize if I confused anyone in the process. My comments should only be limited to that regard, and given the amount of confusion they've caused, should probably be even more limited.

 

You can sugar coat it all you want with whatever logic you wish to employ, but the Scripture supercedes you - it is faith and repentance that saves you. You need both. Repentence without faith is meaningless, because to repent you must confess to God. Faith without repentence is meaningless because you still live like you do not believe in God and you do not confess your sins. We all will stray from God's law in one way or another. The point is to believe and to confess and change.

Ah, I must be the choir!

*everyone stares at me, thinks hard, then finally gets it*

I know you can't "earn" heaven by doing good works (even if what I said did sound like that--I truly didn't mean it to) and that you need faith.

But still, an atheist who will not believe in God but still lives a very good life is not going to be shunned by God. It must be understood that there are different kinds of atheists. There are skeptics, humanists, doubtful philosophers, ant-Christians, etc. And there are people who simply don't trouble themselves about God because they never think or care about anything spiritual. I'm sure that unless that atheist is the type that literally hates God and wants to stay away from Him, he will be considered by God of whether or not he is deserving of eternal life. God is merciful and will not punish a person for doubt or ignorance.

We need Jesus. All he requires is that we ask. If that means that people who refuse to ask but have done good works are denied over those who have done less good works but has asked for that power that no one deserves to wipe away those sins by the grace of God, that's how it goes.

I'm not denying that that's true for Christians who are lucky enough to know Jesus Christ. But if you have to literally ask Jesus first in order to get your sins wiped away, then what about the Buddhists and Moslems and Hindus (and etc.) of this world that don't believe in him but still live a good life and live according to good principles and a desire to help others? God is not going to condemn them to hell. Popes have stated that non-Christians can go to heaven. Remember that the majority of non-Christians either know little or nothing about Jesus or truly honestly think that their religion is better (without having seriously considered Christianity, that is).

The Bible states that we're all sinners and regardless, we're deserving of death, but resurrection comes from the faith that Christ's death on the cross atoned for your sins. As long as you believe, you will be saved. The Bible is quite clear on this. Works, no matter how good they are, won't get you eternal life, period. It's your faith that gets you eternal life and it's from that same faith from which good works come from.

Yes, but you can't use your faith as an excuse for not bothering about doing right or wrong. That's a misconception many people have about Christianity today, and I think that there are a lot of Christians who also believe in this misconception and use it to their advantage.

 

To the original post:

Um, just curious, but um.........do you, umm actually believe that?

 

AmazingDM:
Yes. And if you're about to say something pointlessly atheistic without contributing, post it here.

DeJade_Vu posted on 5/1/05 6:12pm

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[i]You can sugar coat it all you want with whatever logic you wish to employ, but the Scripture supercedes you - it is faith and repentance that saves you. You need both. Repentence without faith is meaningless, because to repent you must confess to God. Faith without repentence is meaningless because you still live like you do not believe in God and you do not confess your sins. We all will stray from God's law in one way or another. The point is to believe and to confess and change. [/i]

Ah, I must be the choir! [face_wink]

*everyone stares at me, thinks hard, then finally gets it*

I know you can't "earn" heaven by doing good works (even if what I said did sound like that--I truly didn't mean it to) and that you need faith.

But still, an atheist who will not believe in God but still lives a very good life is not going to be shunned by God. It must be understood that there are different kinds of atheists. There are skeptics, humanists, doubtful philosophers, ant-Christians, etc. And there are people who simply don't trouble themselves about God because they never think or care about anything spiritual. I'm sure that unless that atheist is the type that literally hates God and wants to stay away from Him, he will be considered by God of whether or not he is deserving of eternal life. God is merciful and will not punish a person for doubt or ignorance.
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He will not punish a person for doubt? What part of "believeth in me" do you not understand? This is the Bible, not the Expanded Universe. You can't retcon it. It's that simple. Ignorance is one thing, if they haven't been preached the Bible, but doubt is quite another. An atheist who's been exposed to Christianity has no such excuse. It's funny, because if I'm preaching to the "choir" then the choir's reading a different Bible and has a different set of hymnals than those who base their beliefs off the way the Bible is, not the way they'd feel better about it being.

Find me a quote in the Bible that agrees with what you preach, and I'll take this back.

[blockquote][link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=DeJade_Vu][b]DeJade_Vu[/b][/link] [b]posted on 5/1/05 6:12pm[/b][hr]
[i] We need Jesus. All he requires is that we ask. If that means that people who refuse to ask but have done good works are denied over those who have done less good works but has asked for that power that no one deserves to wipe away those sins by the grace of God, that's how it goes. [/i]

I'm not denying that that's true for Christians who are lucky enough to know Jesus Christ. But if you have to literally ask Jesus first in order to get your sins wiped away, then what about the Buddhists and Moslems and Hindus (and etc.) of this world that don't believe in him but still live a good life and live according to good principles and a desire to help others? God is not going to condemn them to hell. Popes have stated that non-Christians can go to heaven. Remember that the majority of non-Christians either know little or nothing about Jesus or truly honestly think that their religion is better (without having seriously considered Christianity, that is). [hr][/blockquote]

I don't care what the Popes say, for years Catholics held them above the Bible, which is ridiculous. Popes disagree with each other, so we're not going to get into your Pope vs. my Pope. My "Pope" is God and his Word, and I think he trumps yours. Again you make the argument that people born after Christ can be saved without faith. And people who believe in other gods being saved? Again, I would love to see some scripture that supports this before I bother pulling out the "thou shalt have no other gods before me." I would love to see scripture that supports

 

First you have to know God's will (i.e. understand right and wrong) and then you have to choose to do wrong. Because little children do not understand the difference between right and wrong, they cannot sin, even when they transgress God's law.

Is there anything in the bible to back any of that up? So how are you coming to that conclusion? Would you consider owning a slave a sin? As we know during Jesus's time it was perfectly acceptable and Jesus essentially gave it his endorsement time and time again.

Wouldn't you consider it a sin to kill somebody for looking the wrong way? Or how about killing people because they worship a different God? Or how about raping female prisoners of war? Or how about the legal raping of women?

What I'm getting at is that even in the bible there aren't any clearly defined guidelines for right and wrong, I think even most fundamental christians would find many things in the bible that at the time were considered right and justified to be wrong and sinful. Even today from culture to culture there are very different ideas of right and wrong. So how are you coming up with this?

Jabba-wocky, yeah I screwed up. I don't know how that happened since it appears nobody else in this thread quoted scripture... I suck.

 

Two examples: the thief on the cross asked Yeshua to forgive him. The Messiah told him that he would be in the kingdom of heaven, despite the fact that the thief had no way of repenting as far as his actions go. He died a few hours of his confession.

The second one is the man who came to the Messiah asking what it would take to enter the kingdom of heaven. Yeshua told him that he should obey the commandments. He then gave a small list of them, and the rich man told Him that he had done them all since he was young, and had not strayed. Then the Messiah asked him to sell everything he had, give his money to the poor, and then follow the Messiah's lead. The rich man turned and sadly walked off (without eternal life).

Faith is the avenue through which atonement is provided, and it was all made possible through the Messiah's life and death. HOWEVER: faith without works is dead. Given the chance to repent of your sin, and to walk according to the Way, if one truly has the faith they will do this thing. It isn't walking the Way that saves, but that your faith causes you to do so, over time. Repentance, as KK pointed out, is the first step in all of it. But it is the faith that saves, because only the Messiah's death makes it possible for us to have eternal life.

 

Both are required of the Faith really.

You Need to forgive so God CAN Forgive you, You Need to show Mercy so God will show Mercy on You.

Morality, is needed to draw the line between whats for and against God.


To try to rip these two requirements apart from each other would be insane.

 

You Need to forgive so God CAN Forgive you, You Need to show Mercy so God will show Mercy on You

well, even if you don't forgive God will forgive you. There is not a little dance or trick we need to do for Gods forgivness.

He forgives those who trust in him. I fully trust God yet i hold grudges agaist kids i went to high school with and havn't seen for a good 8 or 9 years. ITs becuase of my own self glorification that i havn't

The beuty is, no matter how bad i go, God has blessed me and given through Grace has allowed me to understand that this life does not belong to me, it belongs to the lord.

 

Well, to clarify that last point.

You need to be forgiving people if you expect forgiveness. However, if you are truly committed to God, but struggle with forgiving people (as someone might struggle with lying or any number of other inapproprite behaviors) God in his grace can forgive you for that short-coming.

However, this is not to say that you can willfully decide that you have no intention of forgiving others and don't care what God has to say about. That is unacceptable.

It's the difference between trying to be obedient and failing vs just being rebellious.

 

i agree