Christmas sure is confusing!

Christmas is a federal holiday in the United States and in recent years there has been quite a bit of debate surrounding December 25th.

Led by the ACLU, protestors have begun to selectively and methodically investigate the governments involvement in celebrating Christmas and in many cases have taken legal action to supress state participation.

What are your feelings on the subject of Christmas and the government? Should they be kept completely seperate and if so, shouldn't the holiday be removed from the federal calendar? Or do you feel that along with being a religious holiday, Christmas is a secular holiday as well, celebrating Jesus Christ as an influencial man whose values inspired the founding fathers of our nation?

 

Christmas is also a time for people to spend with their families. I think people who whine and cry, and decide to take legal action is just wanting to draw attention to themselves. What they claim they do for the rights of all people is nothing more than trampling the rights of someone else.

Being a Federal Employee I do NOT get Christmas off, I am one of the few who work that day. You dont see me moping around, swearing my rights have been violated. People should just be glad they have the day off, and enjoy their family, if not then they can come work for me on Christmas and let me have the day off.

 

Christmas already has been secularized largely.

Santa Claus is looked at by many kids as the main figure, not The Christ.

 

As far as Christmas being a federal holiday - if the government decides that there will be a set number of holidays where all government employees have a day's relief from work, that's fine. If it chooses days that correspond with commonly celebrated holidays when the employees are most likely to want to spend time with their families, I really don't have a problem with that, either.

However, if the government starts organizing Christmas celebrations, it starts to get a little hairy.

Should my tax money be spent on a Christmas tree to be put up on public property? I don't really see the need. Individuals will decorate their houses for the holiday; why does the government need to do so as well? Wouldn't the money be better spent maintaining the roads that people will be traveling to visit family, or any of a number of things for which the government should actually be responsible?

Should my child's school spend time practicing a Christmas pageant? Again, what's the need? If our children can't even learn to read and write, I don't think we should be wasting tax money and valuable time on learning the words to "O Holy Night." If you feel that your child should have the opportunity to participate in a Christmas pageant, I'm sure that a local church would be glad to organize and host one.

Basically, I don't have a problem with the government letting its employees off on a particular holiday. It's when the government actually starts participating in and organizing the holiday celebrations that we have a problem.

 

I work in the VA hospital, and the hospital does decorate for holidays, every holiday from Christmas to Halloween. We SHOULD decorate accordingly, it does wonders for morale of the patients when they sit around a tree with their grandchildren, or a volunteer and tell their stories. The hospital decorates on the outside too, again it does good for patient morale.

Womberty It isnt too bad to see a tree in front of the White House lit up at Christmas, we live in America the wealthiest nation on earth, not Afghanistan. Putting some lights on federal property makes the government look a little human, and wont cause it to go bankrupt.

As for school parties, so what? DO you know how hard it is to keep a kids attention the day before winter break? They are too concerned about the long time off and what Santa will bring them, try teaching ABC's then. Im sure some of our board members who are teachers will tell you this, let em have a day to socialize and have fun. Afterall the rest of their lives will be spent being grown up not having parties.

 

"It's when the government actually starts participating in and organizing the holiday celebrations that we have a problem."

I think that this drives to the heart of the debate. The government of the United States has participated in the celebration of Christmas since it's birth. Until recently, there was no issue taken with governmental bodies actively participating in the holiday.

I guess it all boils down to the seperation of church and state. Does this mandate explicitly call for absolute disassociation on the part of the government or does it merely identify the sentiment that forced religion, such as was imposed upon the founders of America, should not be tolerated?

I for one feel that Christianity is and always has been at the core of the United States. While I would never advocate the imposition of religious beliefs upon another, I do feel that the government of the United States has the same right to openly celebrate Christmas as they do Martin Luther King, Jr. Day or Abraham Lincoln's birthday. Citizenship comes with many benefits and costs, and ultimately it is voluntary.

 

But I never see a menorah in front of the White House, or a statue of Ganesh or Buddha...

Why the Christmas tree? Why is it so important to you to see the government participating in Christmas?

Yes, it's a big holiday in our nation. Yes, it's celebrated by the majority of people in our nation. But they don't need the government's help.


As for school parties, so what? DO you know how hard it is to keep a kids attention the day before winter break?

Well, let's suppose you live in a part of the country with a large Indian population. They might not be a majority, but suppose they comprise a significant percentage of the school's students. Do they get a Diwali party? Or how about Navratri? They'll be distracted for a whole week! Should we stop teaching them and just let them run rampant because they're excited about the coming evening's celebrations?

 

I do feel that the government of the United States has the same right to openly celebrate Christmas as they do Martin Luther King, Jr. Day or Abraham Lincoln's birthday.

Funny thing about that - I don't remember ever seeing a public park decked out for Martin Luther King, Jr. day.


Citizenship comes with many benefits and costs, and ultimately it is voluntary.

I hope you're not suggesting people leave if they don't celebrate Christmas.

As a citizen, I should get the same treatment as every other citizen, shouldn't I? So why should the government give special recognition for one person's holidays and not for another's?

 

Because the government we speak of was founded with these beliefs. Why should we change them now to please others? It's not just Christmas anymore, we can no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance with being scrutinized! What is next, removing "In God We Trust" from our notes? These are part of American culture, no question.

 

What is next, removing "In God We Trust" from our notes?

Well, considering it wasn't added until at least 1850, I wouldn't try to claim our country was "founded" with that belief.


These are part of American culture, no question.

The purpose of the government is to protect the rights of the people, not to promote their culture.

 

But I never see a menorah in front of the White House, or a statue of Ganesh or Buddha...

I beg to differ.

The government (and especially the President) makes very real attempts to show respect for the holidays of all of the major religions in the United States, not just the Christian ones. (Besides, it's a great photo op. What politician can pass that up?)

Kimball Kinnison

 

Okay, strike menorah.

Where's my Ganesh?

 

Uh, I feel really stupid asking this, but what's a Ganesh?

 

Well, let's suppose you live in a part of the country with a large Indian population. They might not be a majority, but suppose they comprise a significant percentage of the school's students. Do they get a Diwali party? Or how about Navratri? They'll be distracted for a whole week! Should we stop teaching them and just let them run rampant because they're excited about the coming evening's celebrations?

Nobody said that people will learn about Christ being born in a manger, or his cruxifiction or anything. Whats wrong at the end of the day letting them eat cake, drink soda, talk amongst themselves?

Why should the majority of a country bow down and kiss every minorities ass? They chose to live amongst us not visaversa. You would be outraged if I went to India and demanded they have a Christmas party or celebrate Christmas, and they shouldnt have to since Christianity is in a slim minority there. If its about respect other people, then why in the hell wont they respect me and the overwhelming majority of the people. Its like a Frenchman coming over here saying he is offended by the fourth of july. Should we stop celebrating the Fourth for him, or what if a group of foreigners agreed and made up a small minority? Should we stop because they dont like it. There is a saying, a very old saying, "if you dont like what you see turn your damn head." It fits nicely.

 

Ganesh is a Hindu god - the one with the head of an elephant. You might remember him from the episode of The Simpsons where Apu is getting married and Homer dresses as Ganesh to prevent the wedding.

Tum Ganesh nahi ho! Ganesh bedunga nahi hai!

 

"I for one feel that Christianity is and always has been at the core of the United States."

I don't want to veer off-topic but what are you implying in this statement? Watch your step.

And your pledge statement doesn't hold because the "under god" portion was added later.

 

The purpose of the government is to protect the rights of the people, not to promote their culture.

Our government has a motto "This government of the people, by the people, and for the people" Exactly what part of that motto do you fail to comprehend? Would you prefer the government become so estranged from the people it represents that it looses sight of what it is, becoming a monarchy, and aristocracy? I prefer not.

 

Nobody said that people will learn about Christ being born in a manger

Riiight... "Christmas" has nothing to do with Christ. (Well, okay, it doesn't seem to anymore, but still...)


You would be outraged if I went to India and demanded they have a Christmas party or celebrate Christmas

Actually, they do celebrate Christmas, but that's not the point.


If its about respect other people, then why in the hell wont they respect me and the overwhelming majority of the people.

Because a key part of our government is the respect for the rights of the minority.


Our government has a motto "This government of the people, by the people, and for the people" Exactly what part of that motto do you fail to comprehend?

That little phrase was actually part of Lincoln's Gettysburg address. But still - what part of that do you take to mean that the people should use the government for their religious celebrations?


Would you prefer the government become so estranged from the people it represents that it looses sight of what it is, becoming a monarchy, and aristocracy?

As long as the government does what it's supposed to do - protecting my rights and freedoms - I don't see it becoming estranged. A government doesn't have to share your religion or your holidays to be effective at protecting your rights. I would prefer to have my government do its job and stop wasting time with the extra fluff. We don't need the government to make us feel good about Christmas; we have each other.

 

Nobody said that people will learn about Christ being born in a manger, or his cruxifiction or anything.

You may be interested to know that I, as a Jew, first heard of that section of the Christian canon from my (public) elementary school's holiday parties and pictures to color and lousy songs to listen to. Whether they're intended to or not, Christmas parties do pack a heavy wallop of indoctrination.

 

That little phrase was actually part of Lincoln's Gettysburg address. But still - what part of that do you take to mean that the people should use the government for their religious celebrations?

What is meant by that is the government is the people, chosen from amongst the people to represent the people. A large number of senators, and all American presidents have had Christian beliefs. Should they not be allowed to worship? How does it look when our president only attends Christian churches, does that mean he endorses Christianity? The men and women of the government are allowed to have their holidays and since most are Christians, they celebrate Christmas.

The majority should not play down to the minority. People have the right to celebrate Christmas openly, and pubically. And if 99% of government workers celebrate Christmas, then the 1% that doesnt shouldnt boo-hoo about it. (not acutal stats, just something at random)

 

Okay, strike menorah.

Where's my Ganesh?

I should point out that the National Menorah is donated by a Jewish organization. The National Christmas Tree is also donated to the White House by a private group. If there is not a "National Ganesh", maybe it's because no one has tried to donate one? The government doesn't just decide "We're going to celebrate this religious holiday." It is usually approached by a group from the specific religion and provides support for their celebration (such as facilities, speakers, etc.).

I could point out that there are more members of my Church than there are Jews in the US, yet I don't see any "National Pioneer Day" celebrations to celebrate one of our few, unique holidays. It really isn't celebrated at all outside of Utah (where it is a state holiday).

Kimball Kinnison

 

Christmas is the most commercialized, secularized "spiritual" holiday around. If you're an agnostic you can still celebrate it. Geesh.

If I was a pagan, I'd feel closer to the fall harvest on All-Hollow's Eve.

Christmas has been secularized. Ever heard of Santa? What the heck does a tree with lights and Egg-Nog have to do with Christ?

Christmas has plenty of secular areas to celebrate. I know, because I was raised with some of them.

 

A large number of senators, and all American presidents have had Christian beliefs. Should they not be allowed to worship?

Sure! They can all go to the churches of which they are members and worship. They should not, as senators and presidents, be using their political offices and governmental powers to organize worship, however.

Can the president say, "I believe in God"? Sure.

Can the president say, "This country believes in God"? No.

 

People please! Christmas is the most commercialized, secularized "spiritual" holiday around. If you're an agnostic you can still celebrate it! Geesh.

I don't think most people have a problem with the idea of a holiday where people exchange gifts with friends and family.

The problem is that their tax dollars are being spent on Christmas decorations, and their children are asked to participate in pageants that usually include references to the birth of Christ.

You probably wouldn't want your child raised as a Satanist, even if that was the religion of the majority of people in the country. If you were asked to help your child with a devil costume for a play where they would sing the praises of Lucifer and darkness, wouldn't it bother you just a little bit? Wouldn't you be upset that your child was expected to just go along with this religion that is so different from yours? Wouldn't it feel just a bit like indoctrination?

So why do you think Christmas is such an innocent or unoffensive holiday? You're supposedly celebrating the birth of the Saviour, and if someone doesn't believe in that, don't you think it would bother them to have you teaching it to their children?

 

LOL. Equating Christianity with Satanism?!

BTW, there's no such thing as genuine devil-worship. But that's a different topic.


The eevvill school teachers are forcing your children to celebrate the evil Santa. Hey, he even wears red and if you switch letters of his name around it spells: [face_shocked]


I don't like my tax money spent on affirmitave action programs or Title 9 either. Buuut....