Christmas sure is confusing!

So why do you think Christmas is such an innocent or unoffensive holiday? You're supposedly celebrating the birth of the Saviour, and if someone doesn't believe in that, don't you think it would bother them to have you teaching it to their children?

It is the belief of the majority. Yes I know the US is a Republic, but we do have democratic ties, we vote. In a country where people vote, save for the 2000 presidential elections, the majority wins, the majority gets their way. It is fair that way, and if someone doesnt believe that the majority shouldn't dominate, it makes you wonder where their belief of democracy is. They have the right to be heard, they have the right to do everything that the majority does. The majority shouldnt bend over backwards for the minority.

And as been said, most of the "government decorating" is done by volunteer groups, religious groups who also raise the money to do so, so your tax dollars comment really doesnt work here.

 

Jedi Xen: "In a country where people vote, save for the 2000 presidential elections, the majority wins, the majority gets their way."

Stop it! Stop it!!!! Aaaarrgghhh!!!

Actually, the 2000 elections are a great argument against majority rule and too much democracy.

But now back on-topic:

Merry Xmas! There, you happy now?

 

LOL. Equating Christianity with Satanism?!

Find yourself a Muslim and ask them how they feel about their child being asked to sing about the birth of Jesus Christ the Saviour.

Then find yourself a Hindu and ask them the same thing.

Then find yourself an atheist and ask them the same thing.

You'd be surprised how many people feel strongly against Christianity...


In a country where people vote, save for the 2000 presidential elections, the majority wins, the majority gets their way.

As a matter of fact, that's a pretty good example of how we are not a democracy. We've known for a long time that the majority vote doesn't necessarily determine the presidency. We've never changed it because we like to let the states throw all their weight behind one candidate.


It is fair that way, and if someone doesnt believe that the majority shouldn't dominate, it makes you wonder where their belief of democracy is.

The reason this country isn't a pure democracy is that in a democracy, it's a little too easy to trample on the rights of the minority.


The majority shouldnt bend over backwards for the minority.

And not organizing a school celebration is "bending over backwards"?


And as been said, most of the "government decorating" is done by volunteer groups, religious groups who also raise the money to do so, so your tax dollars comment really doesnt work here.

Fine. I'll just stick with the argument about schools.

Why should public schools do anything to celebrate Christmas? Isn't it the parent's job to handle what holidays their children will celebrate, and how?

 

Actually, Muslims regard Christ as a prophet.
Pretty highly-regarded I'd say.

I don't see many Muslims complaining anyway. It's usually some agnostic Jew who felt offended to utter the word "Jesus". Or it's some atheist from the ACLU or Barry Lynn and his lawyers for People for the Seperation of Church and State.


As a deist, I respect your beliefs and your wariness of theocracy and education, but there are many more important issues to worry about.

Public schools should only teach reading, writing, grammar, math, and science.

But, we don't get that do we? We get fuzzy-math, sex ed, touchy-feely environmental garbage, and stupid music classes with those stupid little pan-flutes or whatever they are.

 

Muslims celebrate Christmas, and dont really hate Christianity, they think Christians are "lost" so to speak. Christianity is the most tolerated religion in the middle east, apart from Islam of course.

 

Actually, Muslims regard Christ as a prophet.

They don't consider him the "Saviour", do they?

You don't think it bothers any Muslims that their children are being taught Christian doctrine?

Wouldn't you feel a little weird about a school teaching your children that Muhammad was a great prophet and that they should thank Allah for the great country he's given them?

I'm serious. Find yourself some devout Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists... and ask them how they feel about the blatant Christianity their children are exposed to in public schools.

 

"Find yourself some devout Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists... and ask them how they feel about the blatant Christianity their children are exposed to in public schools."

I don't know what country you go to public school in, but it's apparently not the U.S.

I live in the one of the most conservative states(Utah) and can tell you that you're living a dream if you think kids are over- exposed to Christianity in public schools.

And you're talking to a borderline secular-humanist here.

 

I agree with ShaneP, I live in the Bible Belt, and Christianity isn't forced down anyones throat.

We had a Bible Club, the members of the Bible Club raised their own money, usually by paying dues or cookie sales or something. The Bible club held a student led prayer in front of the flag pole every morning, very few cared. You had your usual baby whiner who thought by others praying, it some how violated their rights.

 

you're living a dream if you think kids are over- exposed to Christianity in public schools.

Well, for one thing, I think every Christmas program I was in included a nativity sing and Christmas songs about God and Jesus.

Not to mention what Dark Lady Mara said:

I, as a Jew, first heard of that section of the Christian canon from my (public) elementary school's holiday parties and pictures to color and lousy songs to listen to. Whether they're intended to or not, Christmas parties do pack a heavy wallop of indoctrination.

You know how much I know about Judaism? Almost nothing. What I do know I've learned from TV shows and books. You know why? Because you almost never learn about Jewish customs and holidays in school.

Yet Jewish children, Hindu children, and atheist children all learn about Christian holidays.

 

Wouldn't you feel a little weird about a school teaching your children that Muhammad was a great prophet and that they should thank Allah for the great country he's given them?


My history teacher did. I saw the muslims as conquerers and worthy of destruction. He said that's one way you could look at it. I don't exactly think a religion whose name means 'Surrender' is exactly peaceful. But that's another topic.


Christmas is christmas, get over it. I agree with whoever said they chose to live with us, we didn't choose to live with them. I hate minorities and I'AM a minority. I'm disabled, partially, or by law if you wish. And I get tired of the minority. I tell ya, the only two causes that were worth fighting for were women's rights and civil rights. Now there's no cause worth fighting so instead of looking like the 'bold' people that they try to be, they end up looking like fools and crybabies.

 

My history teacher did.

Hmm... did he teach you that he was an influential historical figure and that Muslims regard him as a great prophet, or did he teach you that Muhammad was a true prophet and you should praise Allah for sending him?

 

The first one. But he also said that he was a great prophet. Then again this guy said he could barely remember the 60's.

 

Hmm... did he teach you that he was an influential historical figure and that Muslims regard him as a great prophet, or did he teach you that Muhammad was a true prophet and you should praise Allah for sending him?

Sounds like your teachers scared you for life. You must have either went to school in the 50s or had teachers leftover from the 50s. I remember my teachers saying Christmas was about giving, and spending time with family. The pictures we colored had an old jolly fat man, wearing a red suit, and shook like bowl of jelly, living with a bunch of elves, and had 9 tiny reindeer, one of which had a radiactive nose. The only way I knew Christmas was a religious holiday was from my parents telling me.

Our parties consited of watching Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory, coloring pictures, eating candy and cake, and drinking soda. It was like a day long recess.

 

Nah, I'm fairly young. I like these people who are 'liberal' and oppose everything. That's not liberal. That's just stupid.

 

You must have either went to school in the 50s or had teachers leftover from the 50s.

I'm not that old... My teachers were probably born in the 50s.

Did your school ever have a Christmas pageant/play? Mine did. My sister even got to play Mary one year. (That one made the parents proud! ) There were always songs like "O Holy Night" and "Go Tell It on the Mountain" - which are expressly about the birth of Jesus Christ, the Saviour. That doesn't sound like blatant Christianity to you?

 

I did, we had santa claus, not Jesus. Kids now probably don't even know who he is.

 

Our Christmas play was mostly things of a mouse getting cheese for Christmas or something like that.

I only asked the question about the teachers from the 50's cause it seemed like most of my teachers at one point taught my parents. One we called Mousie was a nut, and was a sub in my High School, not only did she try to teach my French class Spainish, even after being corrected and she believed aliens were after her. My hometown has a law saying you can't drag a deadhorse behind your car, the reason, she used to own a horse, she tied to the bumper of her car to get it some exercise and killed the poor thing. This woman has no business near children of anyage, and she used to preach several things, kinda figured she went senial at her advanced age.

 

My sons Christmas concert does not have one religous song sung and parents are notified before hand and can request their child not participate. Jesus is never mentioned. I'm the room mom and organize the Christmas party...lots of Santa, trees and candy canes, exchanging presents and party food...and no Jesus will be mentioned. The kids love the parties during the year. It gives them a chance to take a break from a regualr school day, socialize in a party setting, listen to music and play games. Its a reward for their hard work the last few months.

Its not even call Christmas Break, but winter break.

 

For the record, Christmas is several holidays rolled up into one. The actual name comes from Christianity celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ (which, incidentally, more likely took place in the spring than in the winter). Santa is really an image of Saint Nicholas, who was a Christian that gave toys to poor girls and boys and was canonized a saint by the Christian church. That's were the origins of Christianity lie in the holiday of Christmas.

When the Roman Catholic Empire began conquering and spreading north, to Western Europe, it encountered many pagan tribes and peoples. So, much like Paul did with the Romans, the Church altered some of their teachings to help convert pagans to Christianity. That included bringing Christmas trees (which have/had meaning for pagans) into the Christmas story, and changing the celebration of Christ's birth from the spring/summer to winter, coinciding with the winter solstice. There are many sites out there (do a search on Yahoo! for "origins of Christmas") that detail these holidays; here are a few to check out:

WARNING!!!! Some of these sites discuss discrepancies in the Bible and dispute some commonly held Christian truths. Do not read if you may be offended!

The Origins of Christmas (Christian Churches of God website)

The Celtic Origins of Christmas

Origins of Christmas

So, I would submit that Christmas is no longer truly a religious holiday, but still a very secular one. The only god this country worships in this season is the money god: The Almighty Dollar.

Personally, I have no problem with people working or not working on Christmas. But should New Year's also be disputed, since it is a product of a Christian calendar? As many of you may already know, the Jewish people have a different calendar and celebrate their new year on a very different date, but we do force everyone to adhere to the Christian calendar (which incidentally, based on the date of Christ's birth, is off from 3 to 7 years). Are there any reports of people suing our government over that?

Ultimately, it comes down to freedom of religion. I don't think that public schools should be having any Christmas celebrations at all, but if you are a Muslim or Hindu that chooses to send your children to a private Catholic school (which does often happen) for it's superior education, don't complain about the religion that is taught there.

I went to a college in the Bible belt, and yes, we had a "winter break" which coincided with Christmas, but only once in the four years I was there did the Spring Break coincide with Easter. So, I didn't get to spend 3 of my Easters with my family! Now, my college (Elon University or Elon College as it used to be named) is no longer a religious college, but it was founded by the United Church of Christ and we have a UCC Chaplain. I was very surprised to find out that we didn't have spring break around Easter all the time. We also didn't have off for Martin Luther King's Birthday, so what does that tell you?

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: I added the warning and Yahoo search term suggestion for further reading. and spelling

 

first off...what is so bad about Christmas decorations? yes, your tax dollars may pay for them...but they also pay for abortions in a lot of places, as do the tax dollars of those who are against abortion. it's awful, but it happens
secondly, what is so bad about people celebrating the birth of Christ? freedom of religion. and in most schools (at least in my part of the world) God is NOT ALLOWED to be mentioned anymore in the christmas padgents
third, you have to look really hard to find any Christianity at christmas time. True, there are a lot of angels and mangers and such, but what about the death and resurection of Jesus? that never gets mentioned at chirstmas, not as much as santa in any case
and also, Christians are becomming the minority group in many places...what if Christian parents don't want their children to know about santa clause, but there's pictures of him up all over the school. should they be able to complain and get them taken down? that would be rather foolish, don't you agree?

 

yes, your tax dollars may pay for them...but they also pay for abortions in a lot of places, as do the tax dollars of those who are against abortion. it's awful, but it happens

Would you expect people not to complain if their tax dollars were spent on religious schools? Would you expect them just to say "it happens" and move on?

If your tax dollars are paying for abortions, and you feel that abortion is wrong or that it's a misuse of your tax money, by all means, speak up against it.


secondly, what is so bad about people celebrating the birth of Christ? freedom of religion.

There's nothing wrong with people celebrating the birth of Christ. There's a problem with schools and government celebrating the birth of Christ. The people have the freedom to choose their religion. The government cannot choose any.


third, you have to look really hard to find any Christianity at christmas time. True, there are a lot of angels and mangers and such, but what about the death and resurection of Jesus?

So you're saying that angels and mangers (the birthplace of Christ) don't have anything to do with Christianity?

That's like saying a Hindu celebration isn't really Hindu because yeah, they had some images of Ganesh and Vishnu, but they didn't say anything about Shiva!

A "Christmas" celebration with the nativity scenes and angels is undeniably Christian.


and also, Christians are becomming the minority group in many places...what if Christian parents don't want their children to know about santa clause, but there's pictures of him up all over the school. should they be able to complain and get them taken down?

Sure! I can't stand the commercialized farce that is Santa Claus. My children will never believe that some fat man in a suit climbs down the chimney with toys. They'll always know that their gifts are from Mommy, or Daddy, or some other member of the family.


that would be rather foolish, don't you agree?

Not really. It's insane that schools take so much time organizing a silly Christmas program that sings a little bit about each winter holiday and parades the kids around in goofy outfits, when they can't even teach our kids to read and write. Schools should be taking care of business, and leave the holiday planning to the parents.

 

This is getting ridiculous. I can assure you from my experience that Christianity is hardly looked upon favorably in the public schools.

Do you want to hear what happened to me in a Social Studies class in Junior High (yes, at a public school)? They were teaching us the Pillars of Islam. I do not recall the class ever teaching the beliefs of any other religion. If you are going to moan and groan over Christmas, then what do you think of a Social Studies class that practically teaches Islamic doctrine?

I can imagine if anyone would have been preaching about how there is no other name but Jesus' under heaven by which we must be saved, that there would a tremendously strident outcry. Somehow, it is okay to promote any religion but Christianity. The only time people seem to use the name of Jesus is when they are cursing.

Let people celebrate Christmas and keep your pouting to yourself. Do we have to bring up Hinduism, Islam, and every other religion under the sun in order for you to be satisfied?

 

Do we have to bring up Hinduism, Islam, and every other religion under the sun in order for you to be satisfied?

No! You don't have to mention any of them. Just leave the Christianity out as well.

 

So much whining in this country. I swear.

I'm a Jewish kid who also was in the typical Christmas parties the schools had every year, there were the plays, the gift exchanging, even the songs.

Did I care? No.

It's rubbish. I knew that Christmas was something of the majority and I didn't care. I still got cookies and milk and got gifts from my secret Santa.

I don't believe in Christ as the messiah, but it's a beautiful holiday and I didn't care. It wasn't going to scar me and not once in any of my schools nor do I know anyone whose teacher started preaching to them about Jesus Christ or the bible or anything of the sort. The big thing was Santa, a jolly fat guy who gives kids gifts.

The closest thing to Christ was probably the sining of "Holy Night" at the function. Big deal.

And for the most part, you will see Jewish decorations. Not as much as Christmas, but who cares.

Deal with it.

I still got to stay home during the Jewish holidays while everybody else went to school. So I can care less.

People make such big issues in this country.

5 more years, going to finish saving up my funds and then I'm moving to another country where people don't whine as much.

And it's not just Christmas, it's so many other things with this PC crap I can't stand.

And in no way, shape or form did this countries traditions turn me into a warped Jew boy. I'm just a Jew that can deal with things, not let it become such an issue and enjoy other people's holidays.

And yes, I dig Christmas. Not because of the Christ thing, but because it's a beautiful holiday. The decorations, lights, feeling, food and music.

Hell this year I'm going to my friends house for the holidays, where I will partake in greedily drinking to morning, eating some good turkey and of course, exchanging gifts.

Then I will proceed to greedily go back home and accept my Hanukkah gifts I wasn't around to pick up this week since I'm stuck here in Philly.

 

Would you expect people not to complain if their tax dollars were spent on religious schools? Would you expect them just to say "it happens" and move on?

Considering that the Supreme Court has ruled that you cannot discriminate against religious organizations simply because they are religious in nature, yes. Take a look at Bradfield v. Roberts (1899) for more information on that.

Kimball Kinnison