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Clarification...Quotes...EU

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BobaMatt, May 11, 2006.

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  1. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Can someone please give me links, quotes, and the like about Lucas' most recent stance on the EU? My friend is on this kick about it being a parallel universe, which I think is silly because, first of all, it's all fiction, and second of all it's not what LFL seems to be doing. There is not a Star Wars universe and a Star Wars EU Universe...anyway, please, some help here.
     
  2. Ataro_Soresu

    Ataro_Soresu Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 17, 2006
  3. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 3, 2002
    Lucas did make an off hand comment about the EU being an alternate universe to the one he created, but he wasn't being literal. What he meant was that the EU wasn't his creation. There's a good quote at the front of Splinter of the Mind's Eye in a foreword from Lucas where he basically states that he set the ball rolling which has allowed authors like Allan Dean Foster to play in his universe. I can see this developing into another canon debate if we're not careful, but if your friend wants to believe that the EU is a parallel universe then fine, but that's not the official line from LFL.
     
  4. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Actually, he never said "alternate" -- he said "parallel" which is entirely different.

    Here's the official party line on canon:

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=5851486
     
  5. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004





    The recent division in Canon maintained that only the movies and Lucas?s statements/notes were Canon and that everything else either fell into an ?Official? or ?Infinities? classification.

    The new Canon recognizes all things, and establishes a definite hierarchy. Leland Chee?s statements as to LFL, ergo Lucas?s, policy on Canon are all you need to prove it.

     
  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Thanks. Didn't mean to bait. Anyway, my stance in the argument was that Lucas wasn't being literal, which his actions regarding the EU and the official statements/stances of his companies would seem to support. He doesn't agree.

    Don't want this to become a flame war. Thanks.
     
  7. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004
    It would be easy to prove him wrong.

    Inform him that LFL maintains a Canon policy, show him Leland Chee's quotes, and let him know you can accept his concession on the point. [face_peace]

     
  8. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    The funny thing is, he would only accept a statement from Lucas, as he didn't see anything from Leland Chee or LFL or any of George Lucas' incorporation/support/direction of the EU as "canon." lol

    Way I see it, the movies stand alone, but the EU is structured and managed such that it creates one big continuity. Until there's an alternate continuity for the first "universe," it doesn't make sense to separate them.
     
  9. Jedi_Matt

    Jedi_Matt Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 11, 2002
    just poke him with a stick until he gives in :p
     
  10. Ataro_Soresu

    Ataro_Soresu Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 17, 2006
    Baiting? I don't even fish anymore. All I did was suggest that Lucas might have something to say about the overall quality of your friend's neurological makeup.

    I promise to refrain from making any more presumptous statements about Lucas's knowledge of neurology ever again.
     
  11. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Well looking at his portayal of Anakin's fall you might be able to present a contention that Lucas ascribes to Social Learning Theories and sudden psychotic breaks in his work, establishing some level of Lucas-ified pyschomonology.
     
  12. Ataro_Soresu

    Ataro_Soresu Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 17, 2006
    That sounds like a good direction for this thread. The Psychology of Star Wars....

    A lot of good possibilities there. The psychology of Anakin's fall I think is one a lot of people would be interested in.

    I'm no psych major, but I like the way you think. Social Learning Theory has a lot to say about the fall of the Chosen One. Hopefully you can explain it better than me. As I understand it, the theory holds that criminal behavior is "learned" from the deviant's environment. When factors in the environment (including people) reinforce the behavior, the behavior becomes more acceptable to the subject.

    Por a very simple examplo, Anakin's behavior of killing in cold blood...in the form of the Sand People and later, Dooku...was reinforced by Palpatine. There ended up being no negative consequences for this behavior. He confesses his Tusken sin to two people, but instead of acknowledging his mistake and giving credence to his guilt, they make excuses for him. Padme says, "To be angry is to be human," and tells him he expects too much of himself. Palpatine justifies it as well. Despite Anakin's knowledge on principle that killing in anger is wrong, everyone in his little world holds his hand and makes it okay for him.

    When Anakin slays Dooku, no one on the Council...not even Obi-Wan asks how it happened, or talk to him to see how he feels about an obviously traumatic situation. So he again avoids consequences. Again...behavior reinforced.

    Obviously, we can't deny Anakin's role in making his own decisions...but it's an interesting theory.

    I think even more fascinating than getting into Anakin's head would be Palpatine's. What kind of circumstances give rise to such a razor-sharp mind, a bloodthirsty megalomania, and a pure sociopathy?
     
  13. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Anakin's guilt was always more interesting to me from a psychological standpoint. Like any very religious person who constantly falls short, he self flagellates and hews even tighter to the precepts of his faith and training precisely because he can't live up to them. He's always reaching. The Sith allow him to break free and follow his impulses, test the limits of his power, impose his will, all without consequence.
     
  14. Mark686

    Mark686 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2001
    I think we give Lucas too much power. Hes the creator and i admire him and thank him, but seriously, hes contradicted himself too many times through the years for us to go scrambling to make sense of things everytime he opens his mouth. Episode 3 really proved to me how much he doesnt care about the EU. He is totally fine with doing or saying whatever he wants and leaving the burden on us to explain things...and ive heard him actually say this (purple lightsabers). If hes gonna make all the authors not conflict with his stuff or eachother, he should be bound by the same rules.
    The parallel universe comment really upsets me, weather he meant it or not. It shows what he thinks of EU, its not really Star Wars. Well it is to me, and its certainly better than the weak scripts hes been pumping out for the past 10 years. He does do some great D.E.R.* though.


    *Digital Eyelash Rendering

     
  15. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004
    ?We give Lucas too much power??
    heh......[face_shame_on_you] [face_coffee] [face_shhh] That ain't Coffe, methinks I smell teh KOOL AIDE

    All of these old incongruencies in Lucas?s statements about Canon may well have led to the New Canon Policy which has been handed down by LFL. Quite frankly, I love the new policy for various reasons, one of which you may not ave noticed.

    The New Canon Policy maintains that all Star Wars material is Canon, the creation of the Canon hierarchy establishes a clear distinction between ?truth? and misconception when it comes to Lucas?s work. Despite some S-Canon or N-Canon, likely the infinities material and the old Star Wars scripts with Starkiller and the Bendu Knights, everything else is Canon.

    In other words Lucas authorized LFL to canonize all Expanded Universe material.

    He may joke about parallel universes, however his explicit Canon policy is that there is one Star Wars Universe, and nearly every piece of EU material is included.


    Lucas may be a little wishy-washy when it comes to EU material and extrapolating on characters and plot lines from BFC or NJO or even Battlegrounds, but I would not expect him to be capable of detailing everything.

    George Lucas is just one author in the entire Canon Universe.

    He just happens to be the first author, with lots of money.




    ....and don't dis digital eyelash rendering, had Lucas doen that for Dooku ROTS would have smashed the box office [face_dancing]
     
  16. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 1, 2004
    I shall make a poor pass at Rotter?s Predictive Formula and attempt to express, in at lest general terms, the Behavior Potential of Anakin Skywalker falling to the Dark Side.

    Long, arduous, and likely to be rendered asunder by a psychology major?

    BP =f(E & RV)

    Rotter?s formula holds that Behavior Potential is a function of Expectancy and Reinforcement Value.
    If E & RV are both high, there is a greater likelihood of a particular behavior being demonstrated.

    Let us analyze Anakin?s first cold-blooded massacre, the Sand People.
    In a fit of revenge Anakin slaughtered an entire tribe of essentially innocent nomads along with the perpetrators his mother?s assault and death.

    In his rage Anakin rationalized his behavior.
    Revenge would satiate his emotional need to compensate for his feeling of guilt in the death of his Mother.
    For a moment he expects his behavior to have a massive positive outcome on his feelings, which explains why he decides to massacre the entire group. Anakin?s expectations tell him the more Tuskens he kills the less guilt he will carry and the more capable he will be in rationalizing that he avenged his mother.

    We should point out in this case that Anakin?s expectancy is massively irrational.
    Such a display is a very poignant indicator that young Skywalker is suffering from some form of pathology already.
    This level of maladaptive behavior is simply psychotic.

    Anakin was unstable, to say the least.

    Some past experience or rationalization in Anakin?s life had given him reason to expect a large positive reinforcement value from this behavior.

    What is likely is that Anakin chose this behavior because of Palpatine and the Jedi.
    The reason that he was not on Tatooine with his mother lies in the Chosen One prophecy and the intervention of the Jedi. Anakin was supposedly destined to be powerful, ergo he needs to be taken away from his family and trained.

    From the onset it would appear training as a Jedi produced negative punishment, he lost something that gave him joy, access to his mother. This is at the core of Anakin?s rebelliousness. It also decreases the Behavior Potential of trusting the Jedi Order on a whole.

    Palpatine?s constant litany about Anakin?s great abilities, which call into question his relationship with the Jedi, furthers that thought process. In effect Palpatine may be lowering the expectancy that following Jedi teachings will produced a desired reward.

    His Potential for Pathological behavior had been slowly increasing throughout AOTC, low expectancies of the Jedi fueled by separation from his mother, Palpatine?s manipulation, and the constant refusal of the Jedi to help protect Padme until after a second attempt on her life lowered them even further.

    The death of his mother forced Anakin to choose a Behavior.
    The Potential of following the path of a Jedi was overcome by the greater expectancy of reward that rage presented.

    What is interesting is that the pathological behavior might have been stopped right here. This is the part where we begin to consider Padme as complicit in the fall.

    The Reinforcement Value of Anakin?s slaughter was very high; it had to be in order to convince him that his choice was right. However, he realized after the fact that he might have been wrong.

    When he speaks to Padme he is expecting massive punishment for his actions.
    In his mind the possibility that she would reject him as a monster and report his actions shifted his entire psyche. The payoff seemed no longer worth it, thus he moved to abandon the idea and make amends. Remorse was lowering the reinforcement value of the massacre.

    The reinforcement value of the massacre must be completely destroyed or else the potential to repeat the behavior will remain. Only Padme can lower that value.
     
  17. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004
    Padme doesn?t care!

    She feels sorry for Anakin, she feels he may be exaggerating what happened, and she moves to comfort him.
    The Value of the Reinforcement is maintained, and the potential to repeat the action still exists.
    It is perhaps increased further if Anakin thinks he has engaged Padme as a result of the precedent actions following the slaughter.

    The Clone Wars play a major role in the evolution of Anakin?s pathology.
    Throughout the conflict we see the behavior potential of following Jedi teachings diminish.
    Anakin has chosen to expect very low reinforcement from following the code. Palpatine?s constant praise for his abilities also serves to heighten the expectancy that reinforcement will come when Anakin brings his full might against opponents.

    Throughout the Clone Wars Padawan Skywalker does exactly this.
    He follows Palpatine?s advice and nudging, and unleashes his power in fusillades against the Confederacy.

    The results?
    The Hero with no Fear is made a Jedi Knight.

    Anakin receives praise, self-satisfaction, and recognition by acting along Palpatine?s advice.
    He now expects very little reinforcement from following the Jedi way, and he has massive expectancies for reinforcement for Palpatine?s way.

    Cue, Count Dooku

    The Jedi way holds that taking Dooku prisoner, accepting his surrender, and placing him on trial will provide great rewards. Palpatine?s way presents great rewards through brute force, and execution.

    Anakin has a low expectancy of high reinforcement from the Jedi view.
    There is a high expectancy of high reinforcement from Palpatine?s view however.

    The interesting thing is that Anakin might be experiencing a shift in his expectancy continuum. Although he has followed Palpatine?s advice throughout the war, the Jedi order has provided a great deal of positive reinforcement.

    Anakin?s expectancy for reward with the Jedi is increasing. Therefore, instead of flashing into a rage as he did with the Tuskens, he fights with himself for a moment.

    Palpatine decides the moment.
    Anakin craves the respect and congratulation of Palpatine that type of praise is perhaps the second highest reward he can think of. Only Padme would exceed it, and even Kenobi would be hard pressed to challenge it.

    For a moment Anakin?s expectancies were in contest, both paths would seem to lead equally to likely reward.

    Introducing Palpatine into the equation is what shifted the balance.
    Though the expectancy might not have been that great, the reinforcement value would be massive.


    What I find interesting is that Palpatine helped establish a situation where he could control stimuli being sent to Anakin. Constantly feeding Anakin rewards and praise for his rawer displays of force was definitely influencing his thoughts.

    Anakin opted to tell Palpatine of his massacre on Tatooine, why?
    Could it be possible that he was searching for some kind of reinforcement to further heighten the value?


    At this point Palpatine has established and taken advantage of Anakin?s pathological expectancy & reinforcement system.

    The Council appointment debacle, his lack of Mastery, his inability to reach into the Jedi Archives to save Padme, and the growing dislike of his closeness to Palpatine help put the Jedi into a familiar light for Anakin.

    Once again he sees the people who took his family away, and who would force him to chose which family to keep.

    Yet, even after all of this Palpatine could not compete with Anakin?s love of Padme.

    Only when Palpatine made it clear he was the sole individual in the galaxy capable of saving her, was the change established.

    Preserving Palpatine would represent a nearly total expectation of a nearly infinite award (padme).


    Palpatine manipulated events to increase Anakin?s expectancy of receiving potential reinforcement from him.



    Overall, I think I like the way Lucas orchestrated Anakin?s fall.


     
  18. Mark686

    Mark686 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Aug 30, 2001
    Good analysis.
     
  19. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004
  20. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Absolutely amazing job, but you left a few things out that are somewhat tangential but equally important.

    Anakin punishes himself. He continues to act in the ways that have become instinctual and logical to him, but his deep conflict with himself is what drives him ever further towards a search for poitive reinforcement. He's in deep self-loathing throughout his entire Jedi training, because in addition to all his sublimated negative feelings towards the Order, he also feels awful for not being able to be what everyone wants him to be. Anakin's conflict is between the praises and the displeasure of the powerful people he is supposed to become - the deep seated dogma, the ancient history, the strong traditions that he feels he is betraying - and the quiet indulgence of people that don't understand - or disapprove of, in Palpy's case - the Jedi's suppression of emotion. Padme continues to tell Anakin that he's only human, that ambition is normal, that passion is normal, when Anakin realizes that those things are bad for a Jedi and kicks his own ass for indulging.
     
  21. IceHawk-181

    IceHawk-181 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 1, 2004
    Anakin's self-deception and self-punishment are interesting.

    I was trying to figure out if he was more towards an Internal or External Locus of Control, and kept coming to a ~50/50 result.

    The impact of his own psyhe is hard to gauge.
     
  22. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Anakin has an Internal Locus of Control. He sees his opinions as correct, his way of doing things absolute. When he feels strongly about something, he acts. He defies what he's taught and marries, and wishes to leave the Order. He immediately blames himself for his mother's death, and sees it as his responsibility to not let Padme die. Despite his tendency to lash out, he internalizes and self punishes for what he sees as his own failings.

    "I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more, and I know I shouldn't."

    This is reflected in Palpatine's method of turning him. He never tries to control Anakin, never offers him excuses and scapegoats. He appeals to Anakin's vanity, reinforcing those decisions he makes and lessening the guilt for those things he does wrong, not by blaming them on external loci of control, but by telling him that he's not wrong to begin with.

    The interesting thing about Anakin's Internal Locus of Control is that Anakin has a clear destiny and can see the future, which provides us with a delicious conflict. How can he expect to live his own life and fulfill the destiny the galaxy and the Force have set for him? How can he possibly continue to believe he has any power when all of his prescient dreams come true no matter what he does? Perhaps Obi-Wan's speech to Anakin while he lay burning on the lava shore of Mustafar was telling. "You were the Chosen One. You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them; bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness." Anakin's response? "I hate you!" Joining the Sith seemed to be a way for Anakin to take the reigns away from destiny, a final act of rebellion, a casting off of the burden laid on his shoulders.

    He is never able to fully self deceive. While he lashes out and tries to pin blame on other people, his self loathing grows and grows and paradoxically drives him further and further into the dark side. All he is able to do is rationalize and move on.
     
  23. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    Just to *briefly* touch back on the EU thing that the thread started with (though the psychology stuff is fascinating), my general viewpoint is that the films are the ?game? and everything else are the ?mods?.

    You can find good mods, you can find bad mods ? you can find mods that enhance the game and you can find mods that detract huge chunks from it and don?t understand the spirit in which it was created.

    And from these mods I pick and choose which get installed and ignore those which don?t. Any references to bad mods within good ones are ignored. They don't exist in an 'alternate space' to the game, they just plugin and enhance it.

    Now, George Lucas coded and wrote the game, and keeps the one installed on *his* computer unmodded, but he has no problem with other people creating mods for it - providing that they run them by him first.

    Ta da. I love gaming analogies.
     
  24. Zarm_Rkeeg

    Zarm_Rkeeg Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 9, 2003

    Nice analogy, but you might want to rethink the beginning of that... Maybe 'George Lucas coded and wrote the game, and only he releases the official expansions and patches... on a near-weekly basis...' ;)
     
  25. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    That's be the way it actually works. Ulicus was talking about the way he likes to think about it. "Personal canon," and all that.
     
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