Discussions Clarifying the Progression of Sith History

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Orman Tagge, Jul 5, 2014.

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  1. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    Ok, so despite many millions of hours spent on Wookieepedia, I have been completely unable to figure out exactly how the Sith order progressed, and where certain Sith fit in. I have attempted to fill in a timeline, but there are discrepancies I was hoping to have helped filled out.

    First Sith Empire: The Sith species is united by the Sith King Adas

    First Great Schism: Dark siders called the Legions of Lettow emerge and are destroyed by the Jedi. Ultimately, not important to the formation of the Sith. Discrepancy: How does this fit in with the events of Dawn of the Jedi? It is clear the Je'daii from that comic had darksiders and such, but they dealt with them internally. Is the Jedi order still effectively the Je'daii during the events of the First Schism? If not, how/when did that transition happen? Not a big deal, but unclear.

    Second Great Schism/Hundred Year Darkness: Dark Jedi emerge (again), fight the proper Jedi, and are eventually exiled, ending up on Korriban. There, they become leaders of the First Sith Empire.

    Great Hyperspace War: Naga Sadow, after manipulating a convoluted string of events that are really, really silly, leads an attack against the Republic. He is defeated, and the Republic carries out a genocidal rampage against the Sith which causes a group of them to flee under the leadership of Lord Vitiate. He facilitates the building of a new Sith Empire. Minor Discrepancy: The Timeline videos that give the information used here that isn't in Tales of the Jedi (about Vitiate and the genocide) depict many of the exiled Sith as being human. Which is weird. I could see that by the time of TOR breeding could have made some essentially pure humans, but not directly after the Great Hyperspace War! Also, what's the deal with the Sith species in general? Sith Lords of the Sith species in TOR are clearly not Kissai or Massassi, even the ones who are supposed to be genetically pure. Is this just an artistic mistake? In the SW Saga RPG, stats aren't even given for a non-Kissai or Massassi species of Sith. I'm just not clear as to what the Sith species actually entails.

    The Third Great Schism falls in here somewhere, and according to Wookieepedia: "The Jedi later attributed the causes of the Great Sith War and the Jedi Civil War to be the Third Great Schism" (Paraphrased a bit there). But wait, what? The Great Sith War was a direct result of 1) Freedon Nadd's spirit being all evil 2) The Krath being formed and then seducing Ulic Qel-Droma 3) Exar Kun being the worst Jedi ever. And then the Jedi Civil War was caused by Vitiate's meddling. So what the heck was the Third Great Schism?

    Great Sith War: Here we have Exar Kun leading the Mandalorians and the Krath against the Republic. He is defeated, but lives on in the Force to kick ass. This event is separate from most of the Sith's history.

    Jedi Civil War: Revan and Malak are turned to the Dark side by Vitiate, yes? And they return to the Republic and go to war with the Star Forge as their main weapon, and eventually KOTOR happens and Revan ends the war himself.

    Dark War/Sith Civil War? I'm not sure what happens here. Infighting among the Sith Lords, and the Jedi order is basically wiped out? Correct? But then those Sith Lords are defeated and the Jedi order is resurgent? Meanwhile, Revan is fighting the Sith Emperor on Dromund Kaas and manipulating him right?

    Great War: Sith Emperor returns! Woe and destruction! Revan manipulates him into signing the Treaty of Coruscant, and we all go play SWTOR.

    Here's where the confusion starts. First of all, how the heck does the Sith Empire fall? I literally have no idea. Anyone? Does Vitiate even die?

    But moving beyond that, my original understanding was that upon the Empire's collapse the Sith Lords break apart and start feuding, and that's what's going on during Knight Errant. Eventually, Kaan unites those feuding Sith, they all die, and Bane makes everything wonderfully simple. But...on Wookieepedia, there is discussion of a "New Sith Empire," which is formed during a Fourth Great Schism. During this, the admittedly niftily named Phanius becomes Darth Ruin and forms the New Sith Empire. So before Kaan, Phanius actually united all the remnants of Vitiate's Sith Empire? Or did Vitiate's Empire completely die out, and the Fourth Great Schism created a whole new order of Sith, becoming the Sith we see in Knight Errant, and then eventually being united again by Kaan? The problem children here are really Knight Errant, which gives us a view of the Sith that's very out of context, and then this Fourth Great Schism/Phanius, which seems to have nothing to do with anything.

    There is also the issue of "oddball" Sith who are unassociated with any of the Sith organizations. The ones that come to mind are Darth Andeddu, Darth Desolus, and Darth Phobos. I'm also not too sure about Freedon Nadd. He is described as being a fallen Jedi who went to the old Sith Empire, but he is also described as being Naga Sadow's apprentice on Yavin, after finding the disgraced Sith Lord. However, the old Sith Empire did not exist long after Sadow's defeat because of the genocide! Either Nadd went there in a very, very brief window of time between Sadow's defeat and the genocide, or he actually went to Vitiate's Sith Empire before going to Yavin to become Sadow's apprentice.

    I could really use some help figuring this all out. If you want to help, please do :) also, if this would be more appropriate for the Literature forum, mods, feel free to move it. This is basically Star Wars history at it's geekiest, and I didn't know where it belongs.

    Finally, if you actually made it through all of that, thanks for reading! Hope to hear your thoughts!

    EDIT: This came out a bit wonky because I wrote it all on my ipad. I pray my thoughts remain comprehensible.
    Last edited by Orman Tagge, Jul 5, 2014
    aalagartassle and Iron_lord like this.
  2. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    ...two weeks later: at the very least, do we know how the Sith Empire of TOR fell?
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    TOR has not told us yet. ;)
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jul 23, 2014
  4. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I much preferred when the First Great Schism led to the formation of the Sith. In my personal canon, they still do.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  5. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    WOOHOO A REPLY!!!

    I agree. Having the First Great Schism be some weird, totally separate order of Darksiders (Legions of Lettow) was just unnecessary. I'm all for one schism fewer.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  6. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Furthermore, the First Schism not being the origin of the Sith ruins the Jedi-Sith rivalry. When the Sith came from the first schism, they were The Joker to the Jedi's Batman. Changing them to the second schism destroys that concept.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  7. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    Ideally, to me, I would've preferred if the origin of the Sith had nothing to do with the Jedi at all.
  8. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Why is that?
  9. Orman Tagge Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2014
    star 3
    I think it lessens the impact of the Sith. It makes them derivative of the Jedi, rather than antithetical to them.
  10. jedi_samuel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2014
    I think they were antithetical, in any case. It's just that the jedi... well... rustled their jimmies...
    Last edited by jedi_samuel, Aug 24, 2014
  11. BUZZINHARD Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2014
    I have only read the novels and not the comics nor played the games but wasnt the rakatan one of the first considered imperial army/darkside users that somehow wasn't discovered by really anyone because of distance and lack of hyperdrives until the starforge?
  12. Meyerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 2
    In three lines I can sum up the repetitive history of the Sith:

    Sith make a bid to rule the galaxy, get defeated, secretly go into hiding and rebuild.
    Jedi: "Sith are gone for good. No need to bother with them again."
    Repeat.
  13. DarthIshyZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2005
    star 3
    Probably gonna catch hell for this, but... You forgot something. The Lost Tribe of the Sith. I, personally, loved that series. It was written to provide backstory for the now-non-canon Abeloth battle. I really liked how that developed. Sort of a stranded on a desert island type of story.
  14. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    And this is why I'm glad to say goodbye to the EU.

    Anyway, what if KOTOR made the Star Forge a pre - Dark Jedi creation of the Sith species and had Ziost in place of Lehon?
  15. Meyerm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2014
    star 2
    I love the EU and refuse to accept it's decanonization. As for the Star Forge being Sith and not Rakatan, that would be a interesting idea, just not Ziost. If it was Ziost, it probably would have been uncovered by the republic and the jedi long before it was. Probably hide it somewhere in an otherwise strategically unimportant system.
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