Clocks in Star Wars

Concering distance and the speed of ships:

Clearly, the hyper drive function of jumping to hyperspace would be separate from normal, cruising for wookies, propulsion - we should separate these two ideas when we talk about how fast a ship is. On one hand, we are talking about the speed with which one navigates a vast ocean and on the other, we?re talking the horse power one has to plow through the ether - as distances grow larger, the more important trajectory (plotting the course) becomes in relation to velocity.

I agree with Jangoisadrunk when he says the whole "lightspeed" concept is wrong. Furthermore, it's officialy goofy to suggest that a hyperspace multiplier , as described in earlier posts, has nothing to do with lightspeed. The only constant in the universe with which to measure speed is the speed of light - you quote George Lucas, we?ll quote Albert Einstein. Our humble galaxy is an estimated 25,000 light years across people - your crappy .5 hyperspace multiplier won?t cut it. Princess Leah would have been a fossil by the time the Falcon caught up to her. The quantum definition of hyperspace, as jangoisadrunk pointed out, is the only (and might I add elegant) solution to the inconsistencies and paradoxes that weedoomed alludes to. Fold space, eliminate the distance and time of intra/intergalactic travel, save the princess.

What if hyper drive multipliers were what processed the task of folding space? What if ?fast ship? uses the word ?fast? as it is used the phrase ?fast computer??

 

There was also that thing with the NJO where there was supposedly a big hyperspace disturbance thing where you can't get outside of the galaxy...

Also, if the Rebel Fleet was parked that far away from any inhabited system, where would they get food, fuel, and supplies?

 

Bigp90 is a man of both means and intellect. He has both answered the question AND provided an apt description of the ins and outs of hyperspace in a dogless universe.

Good show.

I would posit to bigp90, however that Albert Einstein, while brilliant and trailblazing in his own right... Had never heard of the Force before. The father of the Atomic Bomb passed away sadly before Lucas brought the world of Star Wars upon us.

What might he have said about midiclorians and holocrons RE the theory of relativity? How might a new force that binds the universe together have affected his findings? Truth be told, we will never EVER know.

Which, friends, is a goddamned shame.

 

Dark Lady Mara,

I see your point. But this discussion is of space and time in the Star Wars universe, not merely clocks. As an audience member, I'm not very concerned with those terrestrial stick-in-the-muds that never leave their planets. The characters that concern most of us are those who cross the Galaxy like they are crossing the street. This is where the Star Wars narrative becomes murky. It seems to me that all of the main Star Wars characters would end up being of vastly varied and different ages because of space travel and the theory of general relativity.

For example, when Anakin leaves Tatooine as a child and then returns as a young man, it seems more consistent with general relativity that all those who he left behind on Tatooine (e.g. his mother) would have died long ago even if he only aged 10-15 years.

So why should Anakin care what time the clock on the wall says when space travel has rendered him and the people and things he loves existentially ******? ;-)

I realize this is a fictional universe, but this discussion is attempting to rationalize fictional rules that Lucas has dreamed up. I prefer to not dwell too much on these technical issues and simply enjoy the ride.

BTW: what is a "dogless universe"?

 

There were problems with that, mainly that the galaxy was visibly rotating. For us to be so far out and be able to see the rotation means it was rotating at an absurd rate.
It's now "canon" that it's the Rishi Maze. I'm not a fan of it either, but that's what it is.


When you say it is now "canon" are you referring to the EU? I will not suffer some sci-fi author's crack pot explanation for something unless it fits with GL's intentions. Although, I guess, if they were in the ultra-extreme double outer-rim, then I could see how that would work. The Rishi Maze would be to them as the Moon is to us. They get far enough away from the deep core, maybe closer to the Rishi Maze than Courascant, and it shows up as a "heavenly body." That's actually a cool idea.

Einstein's Theory of Relativity has no place in the GFFA. It?s just a theory, and the definition of a theory is that it is not a proven fact. It could still be proven wrong; although, I agree with the idea that traveling at the speed of light is not possible because of mass, space, and time changes. I think we can all agree that a quantum model for hyperspace is more appropriate in the GFFA. We all need to tell George that.

 

Einstien is alive and well in the GFFA.

You can take the concept of wormholes. Travel from one end to the other and no time dilation takes place. It would be traveling like we see in SW. In most models of wormholes the space in the tunnel, or the space the tunnel goes through, is called hyperspace.

The power requirments are unfortunately rather large(but not infinite).

 

When you fold space-time and enter hyperspace, you are definately travelling through a wormhole. The concept of wormholes is quantum in nature, is it not? They would go hand in hand with the rest of hyperspace travel in the GFFA. In fact, in ANH you can clearly see the Falcon travelling through such a hole on it's way to Alderaan.

Incidentally, this is the only interesting thread that is open right now on the JC. Lets keep up the good work!

 

You can take the concept of wormholes. Travel from one end to the other and no time dilation takes place. It would be traveling like we see in SW. In most models of wormholes the space in the tunnel, or the space the tunnel goes through, is called hyperspace.

Is that really the "canon" explanation for how hyperdrive is supposed to work? I know Star Trek uses that as an explanation for warp drives. Most of the GFFA-related technical information I've come across has seemed pretty sketchy, though.

I'm also bothered by the fact that Star Wars implies different ships can travel at different speeds while in hyperspace. If this travel were achieved by dropping out of spacetime at one point and popping back in at another, I'd think travel would take the same amount of time regardless.

 

Lixard52, it is in fact a goddamned shame that Einstein had not lived long enough to meet George Lucas. You had better believe there would have been many a late night discussions at the Skywalker Ranch between those two - jeez I'd how I'd like to be a fly on THAT wall!

Relativity as a theory most certainly has it's place in the GFFA. Black Holes (ever hear of em?) were predicted by Einstein's General Relativity in 1916 - we can't just pick the parts of the theory that we like and leave the ones that are inconvenient for our fragile fantasies. Instead, we should endeavor to buttress our worlds with science and a bit of imagination in order to reignite the GFFA in our imaginations as when we first bared witness to the glories of part IV - a long, long time ago.

While it is true that theories are not "proven facts", "not being a proven fact" is NOT the definition of "a theory". Theories are sets of statement or principles that describe or explain a phenomena. Good theories are ones that have been tested through time and are able to make consistent predictions about natural phenomenon. Damn good ones, like the General and Special Theories of Relativity make profound impacts on our understanding of the nature of the universe. The theory may be inadequate in some ways and can't descibe everything, but to say "it could still be proven wrong." - son, you had better recognize... By the way, do we need to have a conversation about evolution?

Lixard52, I see your posit and raise you a postulate - Einstein was aware of The Force and hinted at it's existence. There is his quote, "The only real valuable thing is intuition." Think about what that really means - more valuable that rational thought? Is this the world's most famous scientist or a sage? I can almost hear him slurring in his silly German accent, "yuse da force."

I like to imagine that Albert is a radiant translucent specter, like Yoda, Obi Wan, and Darth Vader at the Ewok jamboree at the end of VI, who smiles at us approvingly everytime we mention relativity in this forum. Does anyone else do that?

 

May I ask again, what is a "dogless universe"?

Thanks

 

Beth, I was just using wormholes as an example. They tend to fit in with what we see in the films, but hyperdrives in GFFA are not supposed to be wormholes as far as I've ever read.

Hyperspace almost seems like quantum tunneling, but in that there is no ftl exchange of information, hence no real ftl.

M-Theory provides another possibility. In a few years the Large Hadron Collider goes online and one of its many experiments will be the detection of the indication of microscopic blackholes. In order for micro-holes to exist there must be extra dimensions. It is a possible explanation as to why gravity is the week force in that it is spread out among the extra dimensions where as the other forces are not.

Hyperdrive would be something akin to slipping in between these dimensions for travel, but wether or not a real world application for ftl travel is possible is anyone's guess.

 

A Lucas/Einstein meeting is a meeting so slick and sleek that light itself would be evaded by such a conversation and a black hole would be created on the site of such an introduction.

It's a little known fact that Lucas asked around Hollywood for Albert Einstein's contact information during the casting of Episode II as he was interesting in casting him as Bale Alderan. Upon discovering news of his death, GL was despondent and was forced to uncomfortable cast the wily and non-recalcitrant Jimmy Smits in the role.

... A mark left on the saga that will not soon fade.

 

i've never heard this navi-computer explanation of the kessel run business. the other EU explanation i've heard is much more convincing:
the kessel run involves smuggling stuff between several different space ships, all moving away from each other. So, a faster ship would be able to get to all the ships while covering less distance... hence 12 parsecs. i hope i explained that correctly. has no one else ever heard of that?

andy

 

the kessel run involves smuggling stuff between several different space ships, all moving away from each other. So, a faster ship would be able to get to all the ships while covering less distance... hence 12 parsecs. i hope i explained that correctly. has no one else ever heard of that?

I've never heard that. The explanation I recall is that the Kessel Run involves going by the Maw Cluster, which is a cluster of black holes. By claiming the 12 parsecs of distance, he went closer to the Maw than anyone else had before.

That's according to the Han Solo Trilogy. Han took a series of small hyperspace jumps or some such.

*shrug* It's EU, so take it or leave it as you see fit.

 

As has been said the parsec measures distance, not time.
Lightyear is distance not time as well.

They will put in a parsec hand as soon as they add the mile hand.

-Seldon

 

Both of those EU explanations for the use of the Parsec as a way of quantifying the Falcon's performance make sense. Passing close to the Maw cluster, and smuggling from moving ships. Smuggling from moving ships sounds like a more olympian way to measure a ships overall performance (and it sounds like a word problem from high school algerbra; if a train leaves cleveland at noon traveling 70 miles per hour...) but it also pretty strongly implies that the kessel run is a way of measuring the performance of smuggling ships only. Is this the case? is any data available on the performance of other ships on the kessel run? if so are they smuggling ships?

I am also a little troubled by the following conundrum... If time-space is being folded or punctured as has been posited by the quantum theorists, which distance is being measured on the kessel run, The Apparent Distance traveled or the Actual Distance traveled? Let me differentiate the two concepts;
1. Planet X is 30 parsecs from Planet Z,
2. The Apparent Distance is 30 parsecs.
3. If the falcon is able to locate wormholes, fold space/time, whatever it does, it's odometer will read something less than 30 parsecs on a trip from X to Y.
4. Whatever the Falcons odometer reads, is the Actual Distance.

So is 12 Parsecs the apparent or actual distance traveled by the falcon on the kessel run? If it is the Actual Distance, then that lends creedence to the theory that the performance of the ship is inexorably bound to the strength of the ships navi-computer, assuming that the locating of wormholes is part of the ships navi-computers functionality.

 

I have an idea...

The Falcon does, indeed, travel through wormholes. This is true for all ships. The differences lie in the power of the navicomputers. A hyperdrive both folds space-time and opens a wormhole to travel through the fold. The more powerful a ship's navicomputer is, then the tighter it can make the fold. This shortens the distance of the wormhole. Mass shadows, however, interfere with this folding. This would affect the distance one must travel through the wormhole (we should call the wormhole "hyperspace"). Imagine that warped space-time is tin foil folded up around a golf ball. The golf ball represents the "mass shadow" that can't be traveled through. The Falcon's navicomputer can plot a course closer to the golf ball than most other ships, thereby shortening the distance to only 12 parsecs.

I think this incorporates most of the major idea that are being batted around this thread. If not, say so and we can work out a "unified hyperspace model" for the GFFA.

 

My theory is :

12 parsecs is the effective distance.

effective distance = onboard time X the speed of light.


it is possible to reduce the onboard time between two destinations by traversing wormholes.

The distance can be further reduced by clever use of the distribution of matter in space , that is of stars.

Matter in space can be used to open up wormholes more effectively or in rapid succession as opposed to travelling betweeen two points separated by only a vacuum and no intervening matter.

Reducing onboard time and thus effective distance depends on -

the ships's technical capabilities and engine efficiency + the navi computer 's performance to plot the optimum route + the pilot's skill and prescence of mind.

 

I guess that the concept that parsecs are a space unit is agreed, therefore no, the clock should not have that hand.

On the other hand, on the Star Wars (Ep. IV ANH) novel, the phrase is "made the kessel run in 12 standard time units"... actually the author (Alan Dean Foster) comments on this by saying that at the time Lucas didn´t have time to go into such details while now he probably has a physics counselor or somebody expert enough to supervise such things

 

The golf ball represents the "mass shadow" that can't be traveled through. The Falcon's navicomputer can plot a course closer to the golf ball than most other ships, thereby shortening the distance to only 12 parsecs.

Pretty much that's the way I see it from the EU explanation.

On the other hand, on the Star Wars (Ep. IV ANH) novel, the phrase is "made the kessel run in 12 standard time units"... actually the author (Alan Dean Foster) comments on this by saying that at the time Lucas didn´t have time to go into such details while now he probably has a physics counselor or somebody expert enough to supervise such things

There are a few inconsistencies between the movie and the novelization, though, aren't there? Not that I can remember what they are at the moment...

 

The differences lie in the power of the navicomputers. A hyperdrive both folds space-time and opens a wormhole to travel through the fold. The more powerful a ship's navicomputer is, then the tighter it can make the fold.

I guess I have a little difficulty with this.

It's hard for me to conceive of a navi-computer bending space-time. That seems more like mysticism than science. Space is physical, computers process information, yeah? If a navi-computer could manipulate physical space, I don't think it would be called a navi-computer. being able to manipulate space-time is a pretty huge secondary feature of the navi-computers identity and name. Is it possible that rather than creating wormholes the navi-computer is just able to locate more of them? and choose better wormholes that will result in shorter distances between locations in space time?

Thanks for the golfball comparison, Jangoisadrunk. that was helpful in conceptualizing the wormhole.

 

It's a ship's hyperdrive that bends space-time and opens/finds wormholes. It is not a mystical concept at all, unless you consider quantum physics mystical. The navi-computer plots a path in realspace to fold that is most devoid of mass shadows. A powerful navi-computer, like the Falcon's, would be able to fold space-time much tighter, as it is less affected by said mass shadows, thereby shortening the distace of the wormhole necessary to traverse hyperspace for that particular trip. I could conceptualize it better with a picture I think, but I hope that helps.

 

We are really firing on all cylinders here - it?s great.

lbvmatt used the term ?actual distance? and R2d1000 has used the term ?effective distance? and I think they both saying the same thing: distance = time traveling * speed of light. (thank you r2d1000 for first posting that formula). We CAN NOT extricate the concept of time from the concept of distance - period. Insisting on treating them as two separate concepts when describing travel in the time-space continuum is incorrect and only leads to more confusion. Space is an multi-dimensional looking glass comrades?

Reducing onboard time and thus effective distance depends on - the ships's technical capabilities and engine efficiency + the navi computer 's performance to plot the optimum route + the pilot's skill and prescence of mind.

I would agree, but would only add that hyper drive multipliers (thank you ds615) probably have a lot to do with ?technical capabilities? in that they probably help fold space-time. VaderLaMent correctly pointed out that ?The power requirements [for folding space-time] are unfortunately rather large(but not infinite)?. Therefore, I would suggest that hyper drive multipliers fold space-time where there is already a great deal of energy and mater already folding space-time - like the Maw cluster. Hyper drive multipliers are not ?opening wormholes? or ?creating hyperspace? but creating more hyperspace where it already exists.

So, I propose the that the following makes for the fastest spacecraft (crafts that reduce the most time and distance): Most engine thrust - raw horsepower (for lack of a better term) to get you to your destination or to points where hyperspace exists (like the Maw cluster). Best navi computers - plots shortest distance between points. Most powerful hyper drive multiplier - exploits existing hyperspace by multiplying it?s effect. Most knowledgeable pilot - a being that grasps the complexities of traveling through a multi-dimensional universe - highly evolved with Jedi like consciousness.

p.s. I have not spent much time thinking about this in earnest so if there are any elder stateswomen or men out there who can help guide us here - i would be very greatful. Are we reinventing the wheel? Please don't give us a simple quote from EU text but give analysis of our arguments. There is room for critical thinking in the GFFA is there not?

 

I don't consider Quantum Physics to be mystical, but I can't claim to be an expert on the subj.

I think i'm following the quantum explanation, but the one detail that gets me is the computer or the hyperdrive folding space. I just can't get my head around that, so my intuition causes me to challenge its validity. I'm so used to the idea of the ship moving through space... The idea that the ship somehow moves the space just hurts my brain... Is that really the way it works? Sorry if i'm asking the same questions again but i just can't escape the feeling that there is a piece of the equation that is missing.

BigP90's theory that the hyperspace exists in certain locations due to things like black holes makes a ton of sense to me. the ability to expoit hyperspace rather than create blends more completely the newtonian and quantum models.

 

I agree with lbv matt on this one. Bigp has done a lot to bring the whole hyperspace theory into view for me. I just wish there was some sort of parity between the EU and cannon mindsets. One would imagine that somone might have ironed out these descrepancies long ago. Instead we have these two giants of Star Wars myth champing at the bit to put out warring theories... leaving the rest of us to cry in our beer.