PT Clone Army / Sifo-Dyas / a man called Tyrannus - is the mystery resolved in the movies?

I recently read an article about audiences today looking for plot twists in movies where there aren't any.

It briefly mentioned the Clone Army / Sifo-Dyas / and a man called Tyrannus as an example of an actual plot twist that was set up but left dangling in the prequels.

Leading up to Revenge of the Sith I thought this would be expanded on. However looking back on it, I feel like this plot thread is resolved at the end of Attack of the Clones when Darth Sidious reveals Count Dooku is Lord Tyrannus. And while we don't learn who Sifo-Dyas was, we know the Sith are behind the creation of the Clone Army. And that's really all we needed to know.

What do people on here think? Is this resolved enough in the movies or did more need to be said in Revenge of the Sith?

 

Yes, what the audience needs to know is already in the movies. The clues are all there.

- Kamino was deleted from the Jedi Archives (only a Jedi could have done that).
- A Jedi ordered an army of clones for the Republic (supposedly the Jedi called Sifo-Dyas, but he was apparently killed before the time when the order was placed).
- The clone template, Jango Fett, was hired by a man called Tyranus (not Sifo-Dyas? What gives?)
- Dooku, a former Jedi (which had once access to the Jedi Archives and could use the identity of a dead Jedi) is revealed to be Darth Tyranus, the person who hired Jango Fett. Therefore tying him to the creation of the clone army.
- Bottom line, the clone army was ordered by the Sith.

 

While The Clone Wars clear this whole situation up, the movies tell us all we need to know. Obi-Wan's confusion over Sifo-Dyas, a man he seemed to know who had died years earlier, tells the audience that something is amiss with this whole clone army order. We know Palpatine and Dooku are behind it, but the inclusion of a long dead jedi just makes it all the more sketchy. In the movie, Sifo-Dyas is just there to muddy the waters and make the whole thing stink.

There is also the matter of Sifo-Dyas sounding like Sidious, which could have been intentional on George's part, as a wink to the audience to clue them in on the whole thing. But since Sifo-Dyas is a real person, according to Obi-Wan in AotC and TCW, I don't think that is the in-universe case.

 

Enough?

Sure but the first plan I think was for ROTS to have the hunt for Dooku and he was killed by Anakin later in the movie. These transformed to Obi-Wan going after Grievous but at one point Obi-Wan finds out Palpatine is Sidious or Dooku is Tyranus but it's too late.

Lucas was wary about giving too much away for the general viewer who might not have seen the Clonetroopers turning on the Jedi.

Obviously for fans it's easy to figure out that was the case.

 

Originally, Sifo-Diyas was going to be called Sido-Diyas. It was originally intended for Sidious to have ordered the army, and the Kaminoans just got his name a bit wrong.

 

The only thing that's left ambiguous is if the Jedi know that Dooku is Tyranus or not. In the films they don't appear to, unlike in TCW. That's a thing I didn't really like in the show.

 

I think that the audience can put the pieces together and arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do wit the army, he was dead or killed by Dooku so that Dooku could pose as him and order the army. Dooku hired Jango and he deleted the Kamino file before he left.

Why the army was ordered in the name of a dead Jedi makes some sense. The senate and Jedi order will become aware of the army at some point and having it be seemingly ordered by a Jedi makes it a little easier to swallow.
The Sith don't want the Jedi/Senate to look too closely at this army.
And possibly the Kamino people would ask less questions if a Jedi placed the order.

However, there are still problems.
1) Who do the Jedi think ordered the army?
If we take what Obi-Wan says as true then the Jedi KNOW that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army and it was instead ordered under a false name. Which makes it very suspicious.
The Jedi also know enough to at least consider the possibility that Dooku ordered it.
Jango works for Dooku, Dooku is a Jedi so he could have deleted the Kamino file and posed as Sifo-Dyas.
This would them even more suspicious.
But this issue is not resolved at all and the Jedi seem not to have a care in the world about the clones in RotS and when the clones turn on them, the Jedi are taken totally by surprise. In short, the Jedi comes of as morons.

2) Various EU muddied the waters by saying that Obi-Wan was wrong, Sifo-Dyas didn't die before the order and he was, perhaps, involved in some way for some reason. Other EU seemed to confirm what the movie said and had Sifo-Dyad die before or during TPM, so more than ten years ago.

In closing, the lack of follow up is from the Jedi's pow. The Jedi are handed an army under very fishy circumstances and they seemingly know that it was ordered under a false name.
Yet they do nothing about it. They never try to find out who really ordered the army, what the Jango/Dooku connection could mean and they look rather dumb.
So while the audience has enough to get an idea, the Jedi are left with a mystery they seemingly ignore.

I have argued about this many times in the past and I was told either of some EU source, which doesn't matter to me. If RotS was made with the intent that the audience should know that Sifio-Dyas really did order the army, then we have a plot hole.
Or told, to use my imagination and make up what happened between AotC and RotS.
The problem is that when I do that and use what the Jedi know in the film, I arrive at the conclusion that the Jedi is aware that the army was ordered under a false name, probably by Dooku and they should not trust it.
Which makes them look like retards in RotS.

The problem is also that this was changed during reshoots, as others said, originally it was Sido-Dyas and the Jedi knew there was no such Jedi. They suspected some warmonger in the senate as being behind this.
Then it was changed, a lot of other lines were cut and RotS was supposed to deal with the issue but didn't.

End result, a bit of a mess.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I always wondered who the heck paid for the army... (I mean we have to be talking huge dollars)..

And who provided all the gear, built all the ships, landing craft, walkers, etc... I mean were the Kaminoans really supposed to be behind all of that? That seems kind of crazy

 

In Darth Plagueis, Plagueis is a major figure in the Banking Clan, and plans to uses Banking Clan resources to fund the army. Newcanon hasn't yet said who paid for it all as I recall.

For the newcanon, regarding who first contacted the Kaminoans and made the arrangements, the Story Group seem to have finally settled on "Sifo-Dyas placed the initial order" - with the Databank, Ultimate Star Wars, and Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know all taking the same approach.

Ultimate Star Wars (p69):

Timeline
Manipulated by Count Dooku, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas commissions the Kaminoan cloners to grow an army for the Republic.

The Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas

SIFO-DYAS

A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.

Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know

(p20)

Q: Who asks for this huge army to be made?
A: Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi High Council member who senses a looming galactic war and tasks the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic. When the Sith learn of this, they murder Sifo-Dyas so they can control the clones' creation.

(p58)

Dooku completes his fall from the light side when he eliminates his friend, Sifo-Dyas, under orders from Darth Sidious. With Sifo-Dyas gone, the Sith take control of the Jedi's clone army.​

​

 

Dooku is an aristocrat. It's not much of a stretch to assume that he funded (even if partially) the army.

The Kaminoans were building an army, not just clones. So yes, the order included the whole package. They probably outsourced all of that.

 

Yeah so if they outsourced it how would no one notice? I guess the galaxy is a big place... but building an entire fleet of Acclamators? Seems that would be noticed.

I do realize I'm nitpicking... just stuff I've always kind of wondered about

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas

on funding (no idea if this is canon)
"Consequently, Tyranus and his Sith Master, Darth Sidious, funded Sifo-Dyas's army of clone troopers and manipulated the Jedi Order into taking command of the army when the Clone Wars erupted"

 

Kamino is beyond the Outer Rim, so are many other worlds. That's far from the Republic. The only concern is that the Republic discovers it. Besides, Dex did say that they do keep to themselves, so one could assume they are very discreet.

 

The company providing the warships and some of the vehicles, however, was Rothana Heavy Engineering:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rothana_Heavy_Engineering

- a subsidiary of Kuat Drive Yards, which was based in the Core Worlds:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kuat

So a certain amount of coverup was needed. In the EU, Rothana was an extremely high security location, which was how all that construction could be kept secret.

 

That is how the films present it, not sure how people can't figure it out. Shame TCW had to try to muck it up with their alterative story that contradicts the films. Seems like alot of the changes TCW did are torwards angry internet nerd complaints about the PT.

 

TCW didn't change that story. It merely showed what actually happened to Sifo-Dyas.

 

Apparently, he didn't really watch "The Lost One", otherwise he would understand that.

 

I've definitely played enough SW computer games to be very familiar with Kuat and Rothana

 

Yup - but those are the canon Wookieepedia pages - so we know that this is the case in both the canonverse and the Legendsverse.

 

The biggest flaw of ROTS is its failure to resolve this particular plotline. As I've often argued, AOTC sets up this subplot beautifully, and ROTS just drops the ball.

The Jedi are forced to use the Clones, because not only is it being dictated by Palpatine that they do -- they literally have no other choice. They can't unilaterally fight a war for the Republic, and it's obvious by the end of the second act of Clones that the CIS are preparing for war. So it's either doom the Republic and face your own extinction or use a highly suspicious army that at least gives you a fighting chance. The mistake by Lucas is that he didn't establish that any inquiries were made between films. I've grudgingly been forced to formulate my own theories as to why that is to shore up what I feel is shoddy storytelling on the part of Lucas, but it's quite possible the Jedi are too preoccupied with the War to properly investigate the matter. By the end of AOTC it's clear the Jedi were highly impressed by the Clones skills in battle, and it's possible a type of cognitive dissonance set in. In reality, Lucas wanted ROTS to be tighter film thats primary focus was on Anakin's downfall, so the Syfo-DIas plotline went unresolved. It's a pity, because it retroactively hurts AOTC.

 

I think that's part of the problem Lucas ran into when he decided to make Anakin a kid in the first movie... he just kind of ran out of time for some things

Looking back he probably should have either started Anakin off as a late teen/adult OR made 4 movies instead

 

This was what I have thought for a while. We did not get Anakin/OB1 as friends in TPM since he was so young to start.

 

It's all resolved for the audience by the end of AOTC. Many fans just read more into it, perhaps as a result of what we desired to see, rather than what was.

Kenobi is told the clones were ordered by Jedi Master Sifo Dyas.

Kenobi is told by Mace that the jedi council did not approve the order.

The clones template,Jango Fett, was there on Kamino.

Jango tells Kenobi he was hired by a man named Tyranus on the moons of Bogden.

Kenobi follows Jango to Geonosis.

There he meets Dooku, the jedi who previously left the jedi order.

At the end of the film, we are told by Sidious that Count Dooku is, in fact, the Tyranus that hired Jango as the clone template. He was also said earlier to have left the jedi order. Someone erased Kamino, the location of the secret clone order, from the jedi archives.

So Dooku is Tyranus and hired Jango for the clone template and is also a former jedi who would have had access to the jedi archives and could have erased Kamino to cover the clone locale up.

Mystery solved.

 

That's not the issue.

"The telling of this story of Anakin going into the Jedi Temple and the other Jedi getting killed through the Order 66 of the clones is just done as one of those kind of inevitable pay offs in terms of getting rid of everybody, the Emperor is getting rid of all his enemies, but there’s a certain inevitability of it all and a sadness to it. I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyranus is the one that started the clones so if your paying attention its very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

So what happened was it was too obvious originally.

LAMA SU: "Please tell your Master Sido-Dyas that we have every confidence his order will be met on time and in full. He is well, I hope?"

OBI-WAN: "I’m sorry Master – ?"

LAMA SU: "Jedi Master Sido-Dyas. He’s still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?"

OBI-WAN: "Oh, yes. Sido-Dyas."

LAMA SU: "You must be anxious to inspect the units for yourself."

OBI-WAN: "That’s why I’m here."


OBI-WAN: "…I’ve never heard of a Jedi called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?"

MACE: "No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you."

OBI-WAN: "I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we’re looking for."

YODA: " Who he is working for… discover that, you must."

OBI-WAN: " I will, Master, and I will also find out more about this clone army… May The Force…"

MACE: " A clone army! Ordered by someone in the Senate perhaps… Someone’s out to start a war."

YODA: "Inform the chancellor of this, we must."

MACE: "Who do you think this impostor Sido-Dyas could be?"


OBI-WAN: "Ever make your way as far into the interior as Coruscant?"

JANGO: "Once or twice."

OBI-WAN: "Recently?"

JANGO: "Possibly… "

OBI-WAN: "Then you must know Master Sido-Dyas?"

JANGO: "Boba, close the door. Master who?"

OBI-WAN: "Sido-Dyas. Isn’t he the Jedi who hired you for this job?"

JANGO FETT: "Never heard of him. I was recuited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."

OBI-WAN: "No? I thought…"

TAUN WE: "Sido-Dyas told us to expect him. And he showed up just when your Jedi Master said he would. We have kept the Jedi’s involvement a secret until your arrival, just as your Master requested."

OBI-WAN: "Curious…"

But Lucas realized that he should change it and he did. He did say it would be explained in ROTS, but he didn't really intend for it to be an elaborate explanation. He wanted the audience to figure it out during Order 66.

 

I'd agree that the whole Sifo-Dyas thing was pretty straightforward for the audience to deduce in AotC already, and I've never thought there was that much "mystery" there. TCW adds some more twists and turns to the narrative, but the stories still line up.