Clone War = Civil War?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by MoronDude, Mar 14, 2002.

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  1. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    Okay, I like looking at the Star Wars movies and relating them to real things. While the OT was called "a galactic Civil War" It was more like the American Revolutionary War. Overthrowing the oppressive monarchy and such.

    Something struck me during the "Clone War" trailer. Something Palpatine said.

    "...to counter the increasing threat of the seperatists."

    Does that sound eerily like the American Civil War? Does a part of the galaxy want to break off from the republic? Or do they want to take over the republic? Are they using clones to fight for them because they don't have soldiers of their own? Does this speculation count as spoilerish even if I don't know and am not spoiled? Will I get an answer to these questions before May 16th? Do I want an answer to these questions, or will answers spoil me beyond belief? Am I starting to sound like one of those annoying narrators at the end of old radio dramas? Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion... :D
  2. Sithman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 1999
    star 7
    Actually, the Civil War is in EpIV - VI. The Rebels vs. the Empire. :)
  3. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    *rubs his temples, annoyed* Y'know, Sithman, we rarely agree. But could you at least try and read my post and give me an ounce of credit insted of reading the name and making up your mind right then of what you are going to respond? "Never judge a thread by it's creator or it's name" Words to live by from MoronDude
  4. Obi-Wan69 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 1999
    star 4
    LOL

    ...and we're supposed to take these things seriously from the guy who calls himself MoronDude?

    :p
  5. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    What?!? A moron can't have an occasional brilliant insight?
  6. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    I understand what your saying and clearly Sithman is the idiot!

    I think I see your point and a point you may have. Yes I have decided that I agree with you.
  7. Obi-Wan69 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 1999
    star 4
    Hey, watch the flaming there, pal.
  8. jedichickenofdoom Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    There's always someone in every organization who wants to seperate. Didnt some whacky Texas organization bring up the Republic of Texas thing about four years ago, and those Michigan Militia want to have their own version of Canada up there...

    It wouldnt be too a leap to guess that someone in the Republic wants to seperate. ANH is more like the civil war in a sense except the Rebels are the good guys of course. I think the theme he was going for though was somewhat anti-Nixon 60s.

    Just my 02
  9. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    It's not really clearly cut on this. There is a Separist union, which seems to be made up of the Trade Federation, and some other organizations. On the surface, they seem to have legitimate reasons, the taxation as witnessed in TPM, the ongoing corruption of the Senate, but they're most likely under the influence of Palpatine anyway. (Just like TPM, he's playing both sides again). So, neither side is good, but the Jedi are good intented people.
  10. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    If neither side is good, does that mean that the rebelion is a completely seperate entity?

  11. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Possibly. But they're both serving the same purpose on the outside. Both rebelling against the Republic/Empire (which is pretty much the same at thsi point).

    I remember you brought up something about the TF tanks having the rebellion's logo on it. Got those pics still? And bigger versions this time :)

    EDIT: 1000th post. Hmmmm..
  12. Dahranni Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Yes, it is very similar to the Civil War. Rumors abound that Episode 3 will be even more like the Civil War with the clone troops and the Jedi fighting the Mandalore Super Commandoes on the homeworld of the Mandalore. Jango Fett was a Mandalore, so his copies fighting the Mandalore Super Commandoes, is like fighting family.
  13. Lord_Erly Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2001
    star 1
    I think Dude has a point, even if he calls himself a moron, that he might be (who knows?). ;)

    I conjure that the Clone War resembles a Civil War. All this talk about seperatists sure points at it.

    There's just something that doesn't seem to add up. (Or perhaps I just got that wrong.)
    In the Clone War Trailer someone says that "they" are using Jango Fett to raise a clone army. I am under the assumption that "they" is refering to the seperatist movement. (Is that right?)

    Now, if the Trade Fed is part of the Seperatists, why would they use clones? They already have a droid army.
    So doesn't that mean that the "good side" ('Old' Republic - Palpatine's faction) is raising an army by cloning?

    And btw:
    wtg Emperor_Dan
    :) :)
    :) :)
  14. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    Id say its more of a secretive Jedi Holocaust by Palpatine.
  15. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    I think Prune8face may have hit the nail with the hammer. A jedi holocaust sounds pretty correct to me.
  16. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Yup, they exterminated the Jedi.

    Just to be pedantic, re: the earlier debate over the Rebellion (in the original trilogy), the Rebel Alliance vs. the Empire wasn't really a civil war. A civil war implies that both parties have a fair bit of power.

    In the American Civil War the North and the South each controlled vast territories (approximately half the country) and each side maintained a form of government in the territory they controlled. The same can be seen in the Spanish Civil War and the English Civil War.

    The Rebel Alliance is more like an underground resistance movement. They don't collect taxes, or draft soldiers based on their governmental authority, or control a large chunk of territory. They're constantly on the run from the Imperial forces.

    But yeah, the AOTC trailers do make it look like the Republic is headed for a textbook civil war. Should be interesting.
  17. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    I'm glad some people took the time to consider my point.

    I don't think well be seeing the Jedi holocaust until Episode 3, and even then, I think it will be more implied than illustrated.

    I'm talking about how the "Seperatists" are carving out their own part of the galaxy, because of some reason or another. They are fighting for power and property, alot like the Confederate states were in the American Civil War. Whether it is as what it seems, or its just a ruse to give Palpatine more power is irrevelent. All I'm saying is that there is some definate parollels to the Civil War going on in AotC.
  18. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    <<I don't think well be seeing the Jedi holocaust until Episode 3, and even then, I think it will be more implied than illustrated. >>

    Even if it happens offscreen, it'll still be quite effective. I mean, if in the beginning of Ep3 you have several thousand odd Jedi in the galaxy, and by ANH it's down to Obi-Wan and Yoda, you *know* they didn't all just die of old age.

    I think Palpatine would be unable to exterminate the Jedi unless he had Anakin fully on board. Yeah, Palpatine's a powerful Sith, but Anakin's part of the Jedi Order. He knows where the secret hiding places are, most likely. He's trained with them, he can get inside their heads in a way that Palpatine can't.

    And that's where I'm having trouble with imagining the segueway from Anakin to Vader. I mean, I know from TPM that he and the Council didn't get off on the right foot, and I know from the AOTC trailers that he's pissed off at Obi-Wan and the Council holding him back. But in order for his resentment to kick into a gear high enough to warrant him hunting down and killing his old colleagues, he's going to have to feel *very* betrayed. I keep wondering if the final push which makes his turn to the Dark Side complete has something to do with Padme. Maybe Palpatine has her killed and makes it look like the murderer was a Jedi. I mean, as long as Padme's alive, she's a connection to the man Vader used to be. She's a risk to Palpatine, just as Luke is a risk to him in ROTJ.

    <<I'm talking about how the "Seperatists" are carving out their own part of the galaxy, because of some reason or another. They are fighting for power and property, alot like the Confederate states were in the American Civil War.>>

    I'm not American, so I'm not an expert on your Civil War, but from my limited knowledge of it, yup, there are obvious parallels. The republic is obviously a federal system rather than a unitary (centralized) system. The Republic is a very loosely federal system, with no standing army, and a strong level of independence at the level of the individual planet/state. It's more like the European Union than anything else, with its far-flung member states, maintenance of individual state sovereignty, and myriad cultural/linguistic divisions. Although, interestingly enough, the EU is more homogenous in an administrative sense than the USA. There is far less standardization in the laws of, say, California and Utah than there is in the laws of Ireland and Greece.

    And like the Republic, the EU's bureaucracy is plagued by inefficiency, remoteness from real people, and corruption. In both cases, the federal system only works if all the member states are reasonably invested in wanting it to work. If their state interests don't coincide with the interests of the EU itself or its other member states they can lobby to change the rules, or they can leave.

    Which is pretty much what the Southern states did prior to the Civil War. In a history course I discovered to my astonishment that the North's fight against slavery was less than entirely disinterested. As a child, I always thought the North was fighting heroically to free the slaves in the South. Then I discovered that it had a lot more to do with economics than ideology. As a manufacturing power, they needed the raw materials the South provided, and when the Confederate states seceded, they had to pay taxes to import those raw materials. Not to mention the fact that if the Confederacy successfully broke away and established itself as viable outside the USA, somebody else might decide to secede on other grounds.

    I imagine the politics in AOTC will be similar to that. TPM never really made it clear which side was which. Presumably the Trade Federation guys were against taxes. If they're traders, any new taxes would decrease their markup on the goods they transport. Did Naboo introduce taxes on imports as a way to stimulate their domestic industry (as a form of import substitution)? Or did the Republic impose the taxes to finance an expansion? If so, why take it out on Naboo, which GL didn't mention a
  19. Miles Lodson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 3
    Great post raincitygirl.

    I too have often wondered WHY the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo and WHICH side of the tax debate they were on.

    One clue is Palpatine's statement in the Senate (paraphrase): "this all started right here with the taxation of trade routes"

    Now this is subject to at least two interpretations:

    1) The Trade Federation was blockading Naboo to ENFORE the tax.

    Thus meaning that Naboo refused to pay it. This is not unprecedented. Trade groups all over the US support new taxes (such as on gasoline) to finance new government transportation projects. Traders also support taxes to harm their competitors. In any case, businesses can pass on the cost of taxes to consumers, who ultimately bear most of the burden.

    2) The Trade Federation was blocaking Naboo to PROTEST the tax.

    This is also certainly plausible, but why choose Naboo? Of course, Palpatine would wnat them to blockade Naboo to create sympathy for his election vote, but why would the Federation stand to gain from blockading Naboo?

    I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
  20. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    I always asumed that the TF were being taxed, and that blockading Naboo was some sort of protest? (Cloak of Deception details more on why they chose Naboo - to get revenge on Palpatine who had suggested the tax.)

    Dan, I don't have those pictures anymore, but there are some similar ones in TFNs multimedia.

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/multimedia/archive/Images/Episode_1/Vehicles/Trade_Federation_AAT/tankinmag.jpg] [image=http://www.theforce.net/multimedia/archive/Images/Episode_1/Vehicles/Trade_Federation_AAT/tank_symbol.jpg]

    I'll try and get bigger ones if you still want.
  21. Miles Lodson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 3
    Kaa...if that's true about Cloak of Deception, then it conflicts with TPM...Palpatine very clearly speaks against the tax in the Senate scene.
  22. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    I'm sure the book has Palpatine suggesting the tax, then have his alter ego Sidious coax the Neimodians to take revenge on his home planet.

    Maybe I'm mistaken, it's a complicated book. :p
  23. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    I have a feeling that in AOTC some planets will be pro-Free Trade and others will be wanting tariffs. The questions becomes, which group feels so restricted and frustrated...

    Now, somebody tell me that EP1's trade dispute was a crappy way to start the saga. Making a mountain out of a mowhill pays off for palps, and were meant to see its evolution.

    BTW, it may just be me, but I feel like Ive been spoiled. Wow. If so, please edit, if its speculation, carry on.
  24. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Spoiled by me? Eeek! I'm as spoiler free as a newborn kitten, so anything I wrote in my long-winded post was entirely speculative.

    Oh, and you're absolutely right. The taxation of trade routes was not at all a bad way to begin the saga. The problem I have is that the presentation of it was confusing, and we never figured out a lot of important details. Hopefully AOTC will clear up some of our confusion. Hopefully.

    Reply to Miles Lodson:

    <<I too have often wondered WHY the Trade Federation blockaded Naboo and WHICH side of the tax debate they were on. One clue is Palpatine's statement in the Senate (paraphrase): "this all started right here with the taxation of trade routes" >>

    That certainly sounds as though Palpatine is blaming the Senate for allowing the situation to happen.

    <<1) The Trade Federation was blockading Naboo to ENFORCE the tax. Thus meaning that Naboo refused to pay it. This is not unprecedented. Trade groups all over the US support new taxes (such as on gasoline) to finance new government transportation projects. Traders also support taxes to harm their competitors. In any case, businesses can pass on the cost of taxes to consumers, who ultimately bear most of the burden. >>

    Yup, exactly. It would be helpful if we knew what Naboo's economy was based on, and its status relative to other systems in the Republic. My guess would be that Naboo is in the "plucky little Belgium" position, where it's a small, relatively weak, peaceful state dependent on larger and more powerful states to safeguard its neutrality.

    <<2) The Trade Federation was blocaking Naboo to PROTEST the tax.

    This is also certainly plausible, but why choose Naboo? Of course, Palpatine would wnat them to blockade Naboo to create sympathy for his election vote, but why would the Federation stand to gain from blockading Naboo? >>

    TPM included specific mention of Trade Federation having a trade franchise. Now, that suggests a possible monopoly. It's not unknown for governments to contract out certain of their duties to private enterprise, even tax collecting. The Romans did it. They gave locals in their territories an exclusive franchise to collect taxes. They had to deliver a set amount to Rome, but they also got a cut for themselves. These were incredibly lucrative contracts, but the tax collectors were hated by the people because of course they squeezed blood from a stone.

    We see similar things with the privatization of prisons and other public goods. As opposed to a government monopoly, the government gives the contract to a private, profit-making corporation. The private company has a monopoly, and can charge what they want.

    Say Naboo was leading a campaign to cut the Trade Federation out of public goods like tax collection on the grounds that they were abusing their monopoly. Palpatine would support it in the Senate (knowing it would show him as a populist reformer) while simultaneously urging the Trade Federation to strike back (in his Darth Sidious guise).

    It would be rather like the British government taking India over from the East India Company in the 19th century, after allegations of misrule, not to mention the British public's discomfort with allowing a private corporation to be in the business of governing. In fact, the government had supported the East India Company (which basically did the govt's dirty work in India), but the govt exploited public sentiment against the Company to make it seem as if their switch to direct rule in India was the humanitarian, principled thing to do as opposed to an act of imperialism.

    <<I would be interested in your thoughts on this. >>

    Well, to sum up, my thoughts are that it's damn complicated, and Lucas had better make some things more clear in AOTC. Because otherwise it's all groundless speculation.
  25. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    "In the Clone War Trailer someone says that "they" are using Jango Fett to raise a clone army. I am under the assumption that "they" is refering to the seperatist movement. (Is that right?) "

    Probably not. This probably refers to the people who are making the clones.

    As for the rest, it is stated in Cloak of Deception that Palpatine was one of the propponents of the taxation. The Neimoidians got back at him by blockading his own planet (a suggestion by Darth Sidious). This is the best explanation thus far, I think.
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