Clone War = Civil War?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by MoronDude, Mar 14, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    What is "Cloak of Deception"? I've never heard of it. And yes, if Palpatine and Queen Amidala were proponents of the tax/tax reform, that would certainly explain why the Trade Federation chose to pick on Naboo. Of course, Darth Sidious would urge them on because the more the Trade Fed guys did, the more of a sympathy vote Palpatine would get. Although that assumes that the tax/tax reform movement was a populist movement which Palpatine used to make himself more popular. Especially since Chancellor Valorum's power had apparently been eroded by charges of corruption and kowtowing to the special interest groups. If Valorum was a relatively weak chancellor who didn't stand up to the special interest groups who were oppressing people, that would explain a lot about his fall.

    If the Trade Fed guys were risking losing their trade franchise because of Naboo spearheading the reform, that's a hell of a reason for them to go along with Sidious's suggestions. Of course the beauty of Palpatine positioning himself as a reformer (while simultaneously playing the other side as Darth Sidiuos) is that he can make all kinds of reforming laws, which have the side-effect of increasing the Chancellor's power and putting the bureaucracy under his control. And then one day the whole galaxy is in his hands, and everybody's confused because he's one of hte good guys, he's not supposed to take advantage of his power.
  2. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    This is a great thread! :)

    'Cloak of Deception' is a book that was released last year, which tells the story that leads up to TPM. This guy had access not only to Lucas and the inside scoop on the TPM plot, but he also read the AotC script...

    Reading 'Cloak of Deception' is very interesting and it definitely sheds light on TPM that would have been difficult to do in a film. But I think the story that precedes the film's plot goes something like this---

    The TF are plagued by pirats who rob their shipments and destroy their ships, especially in the Outer Regions - far from the watchful eye of the Republic and the Jedi. Cloak actually starts with one such attack, which is really (guess what...) one that is paid for by a certain Senator Palpatine. That's all mighty secret at that time, of course. The TF complain about their increasing losses to the Senate and the Chancellor and ask permission to create a stronger defense for themselves (ie Battle Droids and tanks, etc), something Valorum is not too happy to agree to. The ever helpful Palpatine suggests that they can put on some extra taxation of the trade routes to get something back, and then allow the TF to build a droid army. There's some seemingly good reasoning done by Palpy in Valorum's office as well, but I can't remember the details. It seems like a give and take.

    And when it was discovered that the latest attack on a TF transport (carrying a very valuable metal, I think) was actually a bought operation - what do you think Palpatine did? He planted leads that suggested Valorum's family firm was involved, which is pretty much the basis for those accusations of corruption that plagues Valorum in TPM...maaan, this Palpatine guy is creepy...

    So yes, Palpatine does suggest the taxation - which is why you can see that utter look of betrayal on Valorum's face when Amidala asks for a vote of no confidence. He's been set up, and he knows it. In TPM it is fairly obvious what Palpatine needed that taxation for, and of course Sidious has gotten the TF into protesting the taxes with a blockade of (Palpatine's home world) Naboo.

    The grand scheme is there and by the end of the movie Palpatine is Chancellor. This guy doesn't just play both sides. He plays all sides on all fields again and again and again. It's truly disturbing. And I can really see why some people find it hard to get the real plot of it by watching TPM. Thus I really recommend reading 'Cloak of Deception'. A very good and very scary book...
  3. MoronDude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 6
    I love the way Palpatine runs everything! It's so great. He's the little termite that brings down the house. What is interesting is that he was so proud of himself and so corrupted by the Dark Side, that when RotJ rolls around, he thinks he is still playing the same game, but because of his pride and corruption, he underestimates Luke and the Rebellion. We are seeing Palpatine in his prime now... when he becomes Emperor, his bark is worse than his bite, or should I say his face is freaker than his plans.
  4. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Indeed! I consider Cloak to be the only book that is canon. It's just the only one that really shows more of the story, and it seems required.
  5. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Thanks so much for the summary. I'm still a little teensy bit confused, though.

    <<So yes, Palpatine does suggest the taxation - which is why you can see that utter look of betrayal on Valorum's face when Amidala asks for a vote of no confidence. He's been set up, and he knows it. In TPM it is fairly obvious what Palpatine needed that taxation for, and of course Sidious has gotten the TF into protesting the taxes with a blockade of (Palpatine's home world) Naboo. >>

    What did Palpatine need the taxation for? And were these taxes levied by the Republic on the Trade Federation? And did the TF have a monopoly on transporting goods from system to system?

    Palpatine really is a master manipulator. I already thought so, but the details you've mentioned only make it more obvious. You know the scariest part? Good people will probably be thrilled that he's in power, because he seems so honourable and principled.
  6. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    So i suppose palps didnt PUBLICLY say he was FOR the trade taxing, just in secret with valorum.
  7. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Ooh, good point Prune. And of course, when Chancellor Valorum has been fired, he's been totally discredited. Nobody's going to believe his sour grapes about his successor.
  8. General_Lando Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    Ok from what I get The taxation of trade routes meant that the Trade federation was going to have to up their costs and thus pass them on the the outer core planets that depend on them. I think that Naboo might have said now way to this new tarriff imposed by the TF possibly and the Trade federation then decided to blockade Naboo to seek revenge
  9. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    That's absolutely right! The Outer Regions would get the biggest trouble because of this. There's something about that as well in 'Cloak' but I don't remember the details. This is all a bit hard to learn by heart, really.

    Now, the reason Palpatine talked Valorum into pushing for taxation (something Valorum wasn't really too keen on) was that this taxation would be a great tool when Palpatine, or Sidious, wanted to get the TF to play ball and set up the blockade. That blockade and the whole Naboo situation is the final piece of the puzzle that tumbles Valorum and paves the way for Palpatine as Supreme Chancellor. He needed the TF as the "bad guy" to make this all happen, and thus he pushed for things that would make the TF as desperate as possible. The TF were already in economical trouble and the increased taxes made it worse, something which was bound to hurt the Outer Regions eventually. And there you have it - the web that weaves Palpatine's road to domination of the Republic.

    At the same time, Palpatine is working the Senate - both through bribes and more serious bonds of loyalty - so that he secures enough votes for his run as Chancellor, should the situation arise. It's a grand scheme, and especially creepy after you've seen the Clone War trailer...
  10. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    I thought that the TF was being taxed. "Now now, your highness, in time the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view"
  11. Miles Lodson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 3
    Absolutely fantastic thread.

    I must read Cloak of Deception.

  12. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    If you like following the politics in Star Wars, then Cloak is a very cool book.
  13. Miles Lodson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 1998
    star 3
    I will say one thing: I appreciate that Lucas is not "preaching" or alienating half of his fan base with the politics of the prequels. Rather he seems to be saying what people on both sides of the aisle can agree with: we have to be vigilant about our elected officials and especially skeptical about those who appear to play both sides.
  14. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Emperor_Dan;

    The TF must pay a higher tax for their use of the intergalactic trade routes in return for being allowed to create their droid army. This means they will have to increase their prices, especially to outlying systems like Naboo I would think. In turn this might open the field to potential rivals and a myriad of other troubles. I don't remember exactly how it works, but the book will tell you! :)
  15. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    The Republic is ... more like the European Union than anything else, with its far-flung member states, maintenance of individual state sovereignty, and myriad cultural/linguistic divisions.

    To further this analogy, there was also some talk a while ago about creating a EuroArmy, with each member donating some of their forces towards it. I'm not an expert, so if someone knows more about it than me - feel free to correct :)
  16. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
  17. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Wait, so why is Naboo being affected more than, say Corellia? What does the distance have to do with it? If anything, the Naboo should be taxed, not the TF.

    EDIT: Yeah, I've read Cloak, but in the opening crawl it says "The taxation of outlying systems is under dispute".
  18. Lord_Erly Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2001
    star 1
    I wouldn't know, but maybe the idea is that transportation to outlying systems is more expensive.
    So if the taxation is the same, prices will be a lot higher and nobody would be able to afford those taxed goods in the (often poor) systems far from the core.
    That would explain why the Trade Federation is opposing the taxation of traderoutes.
  19. Raincitygirl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 1
    Okay, I'm confused once again. Perhaps I'll have to bite the bullet and buy this "Cloak of Deception" that everybody's talking about.

    KaaShamau, thanks for posting the link. I think the Republic really does share some characteristics with the European Union. For one thing, the European Parliament (the Senate) has relatively little power in comparison with the European Commission (the unelected bureaucrats). Also, promotion in the Commission is not merit-based, but based on your country of origin (i.e. if Italy got the last promotion, then it's France's turn, even if the Danish candidate is best qualified).

    If the Republic's bureaucracy is already corrupt, Palpatine can ostensibly reform it, while actually just transferring the allegiance of the bureaucrats to him personally. That's how Stalin rose to power. He was basically the government's head of personnel, so he made sure to promote people who owed allegiance to him. Pretty soon Stalin's political opponents were isolated within the hierarchy, and he was able to push them aside.
  20. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, I think everybody should read 'Cloak of Deception'. I'll only mess it up by trying to piece it together here. Heck people, it's complicated! But the crawl says that the "taxation of trade routes to outlying systems is in dispute" - which means that the Republic has started to demand money from the TF for using the Republican trade routes. There's something about those trade routes as well in this fantastic book! Anyway, Sidious - who's already worked the TF for about a year when TPM kicks off - convinces the TF that they are being treated unfairly and that a blockade (with the threat of invasion) of a defenseless planet will make the Senate see the problem and do something about it. Of course, Sidious (Palpatine) knows that the Senate won't be able to do anything, and that the conflict will only escalate until he can talk the TF into actually invading Naboo - something the TF is not very keen to do at all.

    Naboo aren't taxed, but ultimately it will be more expensive for the TF to transport goods into the Outer Regions than in the core. I picture the longer you want to bring the merchandise, the more expensive it gets. Not only does this make the TF unhappy and put the trade of the galaxy in a difficult and uneven situation, but think about the other possible implications of this; might this be the first Palpatine-constructed ploy that creates unrest in the Republic, actually sowing the seeds for the separatist-movement that wants to break several star systems loose from the Republic in the new movie? Hmmmm, at least it's possible.

    All I can say is - read 'Cloak of Deception'! It's as close to canon as any SW book will ever get.
  21. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    I'm confused.

    The riots in Kabal started after two months of going without food shipments. Increased Republic taxation of the Sharlissian Trade Corridor made the route cost-prohibitive for Trade Federation food delivery. The Kabal central government attempted to regain control, declaring martial law on Shoribus, but the riots continued. The Kabal Central Citadel sustained firebombing damage, and the Kabalian leader, Premiere Jan Dovu is believed among the dead.


    Is it known to the Republic that the Trade Federation is PART of the separtists? And if the TF was taxed because they were allowed to have an army, and now no one knows they have it at this point, why are they still being taxed?
  22. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    I have a question, what happened in the American civil war? I don't know anything about it, only what Wild Wild West taught me... :p
  23. Gorion Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 1
    In fact a war in which a part of a country tries to break free from the country is a war of secession.

  24. Emperor_Dan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 1999
    star 4
    Basically the South didn't agree with certain policies of the government, and there was a big cultural difference anyways, so the Southern States split off and formed the Confederacy.

    The North didn't like this, and there was a Civil War.
  25. Darthalex543 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Morondude has a point.(I've always wanted to say that :D )but I think its more like WW2 or even Desert Storm (times a billion) I think the best compairacant is WW2 ecspecially with the Jedi Holocaust
    BTW if your reading up on clone campaigns the new civs are the republic and the confederacy even more civil war imagery
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.