Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. sabarte Jedi Master

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    it occurs to me that moving Dark Rendezvous would mess up Whie's timeline, though. But that's fairly minor.
  2. BobaMatt TFN EU Staff

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    It doesn't mess it up, too much. It's just...he's older, when he's killed.
  3. Rilwen_Shadowflame Force Ghost

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    I'm very much irritated by the show messing with the EU.

    Wiping Jedi Trial stinks if it happens completely. I like that book. I don't want to lose it, or any of the others, just because Lucas and co are playing stupid games with continuity.

    Jaedus was bad. This is even worse.

    I'm very close to deciding 'stop this fandom, I want to get off'.



    Unless I invoke DisContinuity, as I did for the Legacy of the Force novels. Mentally declaring that they didn't happen, don't count, and ought to be forgotten as quickly as possible.

    ...If this little money-spinner show messes things up too far, I'm going back to Lord of the Rings, where the canon stays still when you look at it, and the books come first. [face_frustrated]
  4. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

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    Waaait a second...so it's ok to decide that certain books don't count, as long as you're not George Lucas? :p Relax; this isn't any worse than what the EU has already been through. So either Jedi Trial is shifted closer to the beginning of the war, or Anakin gets promoted to Jedi Knight twice. It's no big deal. The last of the old Goodwin newspaper strips used to show Luke being promoted to Commander and used to take place over the course of three years, leading into TESB. Now most of those same strips have been shifted all the way back into the six months after Yavin. Luke was promoted to Commander again in the ESB radio drama, so his earlier promotion had to be retconned. Doesn't mean that Classic Star Wars never happened. It's the same deal here.

    And didn't Tolkien himself go back and re-write continuity by changing part of The Hobbit to fit the story he wanted to tell in Lord of the Rings? These things happen all the time.

    TC
  5. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

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    Dec 12, 2003
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    Tolkien only stopped retconning his work because he died!

    Had he lived a few more years, "orcs were once elves" would have been retconned as well.
  6. Rilwen_Shadowflame Force Ghost

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    It also messes with my favourite Clone Wars novel, Dark Rendezvous, with that Sith Ventress thing.
    DisContinuity is different. It's not like the creator saying, "You know what? I don't care if the fans liked that, it no longer counts."
    It's the fans going "Ok, that was stupid, and as such we're going to personally say it never happened." It's on the personal level, not the official one.

    QuentinGeorge: Yeah, but now he's dead, and the retcons have stopped. That's the important bit. If it's been shuffled before I get to it, fine, but if it's presented one way to get fond of, then changed, I don't like that.
  7. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Personally speaking, if you're DSN fan, you're missing out on some really good material due to that position which brings me to the main point. Is the big problem with all this sort of activity the sense of dishonesty about it? SW EU was indeed, from 1991 onwards, sold as a continuity distinct from its rivals. B5 followed SW's example in its limited EU. Others like Trek and Buffy are upfront that what matters is the episodes/films, but it's interesting to note Trek's booki contnuity for the last 8 years has been quite well-done.

    Then the SEs came out, followed by the PT, but it's only hit fever pitch in the last couple of years where there have been changes made where there was a known prior version. The concern arises over the setting of precedents, if X goes, what is next? If Y is got rid of and I'm a fan of Y, why should I continue to invest in SW EU? I find myself in agreement with Keralys on this: It's a strange business move. Worse though is the sense that this is being done in an underhanded way, that LFL don't want to say upfront: Actually the only canon that matters is film & TV for fear of the backlash to such a statement, yet is what is happening any better?

    Re: The Vong

    Didn't really mind the Vong so much as the cultural indulgence afforded them and that in NJO it seemed to be wrong to kill lots of them, frankly you could have had this:

    Vong abusing a bunny rabbit with an Amphistaff! Jedi with a squad of soldiers engages the Vong, kills it and saves the bunny. Jedi is criticised for killing the Vong and not appreciating its cultural need to ravage the bunny!

    If you say the Vong were meant as an enemy that could pose a threat, yet also be killed and make for titanic battles of fearsome ferocity, OK, sounds cool.

    Similarly the style of NJO too often departed from the quick style of SW ie. the Lars burnt to a crisp skeleton is briefly shown, Luke's hand is slashed off quick. An NJO-style ESB would have a slo-mo saber move with a blood spurt a la Kill Bill! Not that Kill Bill ain't cool but it isn't Star Wars: Kill Bill!
  8. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Hmmm. [face_thinking]

    So, on my 22nd viewing of the trailer (obsessed, I am), I realised how... silly it seems that they've got Obi-Wan negotiating with Jabba.

    Obi-Wan lives on Tattooine for nearly twenty years. Whilst I can buy Obi-Wan remaining on the downlow when no-one knows who he is, I have trouble believing that Jabba wouldn't have eventually found out about a Jedi Knight with whom he'd had dealings with that was living on his turf.

    Curious.

    Of course, there's always this wonderful line from the Radio Drama to fall back on:

    "I suppose I don't very much look the part [of a Jedi Knight] just now do I? Well, truth to tell, that's partially by design... but I was one, nonetheless."

    Maybe Obi-Wan accelerated his aging process? Or got a nose job? :p

    Obi-Wan: Of course, I'm not Obi-Wan, Mr Thug-of-Jabba. Your file there says that Obi-Wan's fifty-seven! Do I look fifty-seven to you? I'm obviously well into my eighties!
  9. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    Hiding like a coward? "note very jedi like." [face_laugh]

    Tattooine is a big sand box...I seriously doubt Jabba took a census...if "somebody didn't want to be found"...they wouldn't...and Jabba isn't a Tyrannical dictator...so long as Obi-wan didn't have the impluse to do "justice" on the Hutt's operation...no one is going to know.
  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Well, he hangs around the local watering holes, places packed with Jabba's minions.

    True, not all of those minions would be aware of who he was but... actually, the whole thing is a bit silly. In Dark Lord, Obi-Wan is sitting in a cantina watching a newsvid. Wasn't Obi-Wan a one of the most recognisable heroes of the Clone Wars? Hasn't he been on the news a whole bunch of times?

    It's... kinda like a celebrity hiding in plain sight. Weird. Though I suppose there are force powers for that. See: Kreia.
  11. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    ObiWan cuts off a guy's arm in ANH over a shove and a spilt drink! No one seems surprised, no attacks him for it either - now why should that be? Unless ObiWan may not be known by name, but he is known as a guy you do not give any aggro to and why? Well, see that guy who's minus a limb....

    Jabba might know, but he's a pragmatist, if ObiWan isn't acting against his interests why should he give a toss? Sure there may be an Imperial bounty, one more trouble than its worth.
  12. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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    But doesn't it look like Jabba and the Jedi are actually in league with each other, here?
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Well, the PT certainly mucked that one up.:p
  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    What Jedi? There are no more Jedi! Leaving each other alone isn't exactly being allies or in league, they've both simply got more important things to do than kill each other.
  15. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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  16. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Ah, thought you were referring to the later period.

    In regard to the CW era, we have the precedent of Mace leaving the Bounty Hunter Guild alone, so long as they don't do Jedi. Similarly Jabba and Gardulla were allowed to fight it out. I'd conclude it's a matter of power limitations, they can't fight Dooku and the Separatists plus the Hutts.
  17. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Point, Watto. This could be a plan of Sidious' that backfires and results in a Jedi/Hutt alliance, or at least Jedi/Hutt peace. Maybe Jabba feels he "owes" Kenobi one?

    "Well, your friend saved my kid and you're a hilarious drunk, so I say we forget about that Imperial Bounty on your head."

    Indeed. [face_thinking]

    I'm still not sure why "Jedi in hermit mode" became "Standard Jedi Dress", though it appears to have been the case from RotJ (what with Old!Anakin appearing in Obi-Wan's spare outfit).

    Of course, before the PT I thought the "Jedi Order" was a loose organisation of like-minded individuals who shared a creed. I didn't think they would be so... tied to government of the Republic. I figured that they just protected Peace and Order in a... journeyman Knight kinda way. You had a few Watchmen here and there but no-one was really "in charge". They "did what they felt was right, of course".

    Oh well.
  18. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 12, 2002
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    That's pretty much how things were in TOTJ, but the Jedi of the KOTOR games and comics are much more PT-like. Out of universe, that obviously reflects the influence of the PT, but in-universe, it suggests a period of centralization between the GSW and the Mandalorian Wars, probably cemented at Exis.
  19. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    Feb 13, 2001
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    You know, in regards to this whole "celebrity" thing.

    I hold desperately to the idea that this is a REALLY REALLY big universe...and that unlike our world, which has gotten so small that if a D-rate understudy for a stage production in Peoria sneezed, there would be a write up on it online for the world to see in 45 minutes.

    There IS a lot of information going all over the place...but there is also a lot of places it doesn't go...there are worlds that don't have access...worlds that don't want access...worlds that simply have been ignored by the flow of "civilization" as we consider it.

    And as "texting comlinks" and other very earthly modern contrivances find a parallel in the GFFA, I hope the authors take a moment to recall that this is a galaxy that spans light-years of void and trillions of souls who aren't glued to holonet updates or the latest tech crazes or lining up at a holo-cinema on every planet that's known.

    There used to be a ruggedness to the galaxy...a wild sense of things...a frontier aspect that technology does necessarily negate, and that I don't believe plot has totally redacted.

    i do believe in a galaxy where trillions have seen Obi-wan Kenobi's face, there are trillions more who don't know him from an insane hermit who may have spent his whole life wandering on Tatooine.

    I believe the universe is big enough that someone could cross your path...and then live around the corner for 20 years, and you have no clue.

    I believe that in some remote places...if a man doesn't keep his face in the light, you don't pick at him to show it...cause you are probably shading yours too.

    I believe that there is a "fringe"...and Tatooine, even at the height of Imperial Power, Hutt Power, Republic Power, Jedi Power...was encapsulated in that "fringe".

    It is the planet that is farthest from...someone tells you to get lost...I can think of few better places.

    I feel dirty now, because I have just given a defense for every writer to use tatooine again...and I hate that more then anything...it goes against the "big universe" premise...but, it can't really be helped.

    Support a galaxy that is bigger then our world!
  20. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

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    And your favorite Clone Wars novel (well, mine too, actually) messes with my other favorite Star Wars novel, Heir to the Empire. (Wayland? C'mon...) So we need a retcon--how is this situation any different?

    It's not the creator saying "I don't care if the fans liked that, it no longer counts." It's the creator saying "Let's not be bound by that in telling the story the way I want to tell it." It doesn't mean the story doesn't count any more. We just need a retcon, like all the other times stories have been contradicted.

    I hate to say this, but this process of contradict-fix-contradict-dismiss-reincorporate has been going on for as long as there's been an EU. Anybody remember the original Jabba the Hut? Which bounty hunter did Han run into on Ord Mantell? Who stole the Death Star plans? Who stole the second Death Star plans? When was Thrawn promoted to Grand Admiral? Did Sate Pestage die, or retire to Byss? Was Darth Vader on the ground, trapped on the Executor, or onboard a regular Star Destroyer during the evacuation of Yavin? If Luke's married, how come they never mentioned it in YJK? Or for that matter, which came first, Nelvaan or Tythe?

    How is this any worse than all the stuff that's had to be fixed before now?

    They don't want to say that upfront because they're not throwing any of the EU out. My guess is that they want to quietly fix any continuity problems caused by the series, but they can't do that until after the movie is actually released. They didn't come right out and say that all the stories with married Jedi were Infinities once AOTC was released, for example, but we did get a slew of quiet retcons for nearly every case.

    I hear ya. If LOTF was in the quick style of Star Wars, it'd be over in three books. ;)

    Actually, thanks to the EU, we know that Obi-Wan not only knew at least one of the creatures in the Mos Eisley cantina (Solomahal) in his former life as a Jedi, he actually served under him in the Clone Wars. As usual, the EU creates a problem before the films even think about it. :p As for anyone re
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Maybe it's not but that we're simply more aware of it now, thus what was permissible 10 years back isn't now. Equally the EU has developed greatly and is far more unwieldy than it was, the question then becomes: Is coherence really everything? Does everything have to match up and line up? The view that it does is reflected in the TOTJ Jedi adopting a no attachment rule, but was this needed? Could the EU handle different versions of the Jedi Order at different eras? I'd like to think so.
  22. sabarte Jedi Master

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    Eh. The US alone has seven towns called Wayland. It's not like planets have to have unique names.
  23. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    Which is hysterical considering the scheme of nearly every species except Twi'lek.

    If these species have more attentive senses to pick up the differences amongst themselves...and they can't pick out human physique, pigment, body hair...I sense something else involved.
  24. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    To be fair, they intentionally kept that vague so as not to spoil the proposal in the forthcoming HOT duology, thoguh it had already been determined by the time YJK was being written.
  25. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

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    Yes, but that would be...a retcon! You can solve anything with a retcon. Contradiction signals need for a retcon, not a need to throw the old source (or the new one!) out.

    TC