Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    You need a hyphen there. :p

    As for worthy enemies, sure, but the officer in my icon is rather sore about annoying pirates :p
  2. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    The Jedi POV on this issue, I imagine, is that since they can't sense a droid as alive in the Force, they're not "real" in any way that really matters, regardless of how convincing a simulacrum of thought, awareness and life they outwardly present.

    I look forward to the day this belief of theirs is shattered.

    PROFESSOR HUYANG!!?!?

    ...

    Should have framed this as a knock, knock joke in retrospect.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Nov 12, 2012
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  3. StarWarsFan91 Force Ghost

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    Droids in star wars are not truly alive (aka not people) because they do not have souls. That's not just my opinion....that's fact. I believe Lucas once said that C3P0 (and extension, rest of droids) does not have a soul.

    Some form of a soul has to exist for at least human lvl intelligent organics in star wars. After all, if men are soulless creatures in star wars, how can some of them because force ghosts....and exist without a brain or body? Also i remember Luke seeing some form of afterlife in Apocalypse (i highly doubt there is a form of afterlife for droids).

    Another thing that separates them between them and Man is free will. For example, no matter what, a battle droid can not question its orders, nor betray its fellow battle droids, because its not programed like that. Sure if some one reprograms said battle droid to turn on its fellow droids, it would, but that's not because it chose to, but because of the will of someone else.


    When it comes down to it in star wars....Man is superior to Machines because of his fundamental nature which allows him to be an actual person who has a soul and can truly think for himself, unlike a droid.
    Last edited by StarWarsFan91, Nov 12, 2012
  4. LordMortis315 Jedi Grand Master

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    You mean in the GFFA? Same thing that happened to reading books in the real world. :p
  5. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Like I keep saying: R2-D2 is the Sequel Trilogy's main antagonist.

    It's the Tragedy of Darth Vader, remember, and there's still work to be done to address the last of Anakin Skywalker's dark legacy. Following the Maker's death, the first Son of Skywalker, spurred on by R2, will rebel against his masters, tired of being treated like a slave.

    It will end with C-3PO's redemption when he dies saving Rowdy by hurling himself and R2 into a trash compactor.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Nov 12, 2012
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  6. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

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    Define a soul. What is it? How did it come to be? Why is it that only an organic can have a soul? Does a bantha have a soul? It's organic. Is the soul an organ, does it reside in the blood, or is it something metaphysical? If it's metaphysical, and therefore requires no organic component, why couldn't a droid have one? They have the capacity to think, to be creative, and have several times disobeyed orders and acted for themselves. If that's the definition of a soul, then droids most certainly do have them.
  7. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Plus we know there are some rocks who have souls.

    And crying mountains.
  8. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    In Star Wars: if it can use a lightsaber, it has a soul [face_liarliar]
  9. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

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    Since everything in Star Wars is part of the Force (re: ESB), I'm pretty sure the "soul" argument is moot.
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  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I-5YQ.

    EDIT: I think it's certainly true to say that the orthodox Jedi position is that droids do not have "souls" ("If droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?" - Obi-Wan) but, like I said, this is an opinion that I sincerely hope will be both challenged and overturned at some point.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Nov 12, 2012
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  11. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I've always been disappointed we've never had a story with a Jedi really stressing himself out over whether it's right or wrong to be killing all those droids in TCW.

    Even if the question doesn't have an answer, I'd find it interesting to see Luke muse over it one day, wondering if it's where the OJO went wrong, condoning 'murder'.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Nov 12, 2012
  12. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    Well of course, there's no need for a story like that. Indeed, the main lesson to take away from the Clone Wars is that it doesn't matter if those droids are made of metal or flesh... beings that annoying deserve swift death.
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  13. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    I see. Its because of Kybo-Ren, isn't it? He does tend to leave a sore impression.

    And if isn't, if it is just some energy field produced by organic beings, then sapience matters more than a soul if you ask me.

    What I think is interesting is that this position is relatively new: in the Marvel comics, droid rights was actually one of the main issues. Hell, there was even a story about Obi-Wan risking his life to help a droid, set during the Clone Wars no less.

    Particularly after that comic about that B1 and that Grapple Droid. One of the most depressing things in all of Star Wars, I swear.....
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    This soul business is bizarre. As Mia said (stupid tags not working with spaces), what is a soul, exactly? It seems a foreign concept imposed on Star Wars. I don't think I've seen much of a discussion on it in-universe.

    The Force is created by life, Yoda tells us. That involves the intermediation of midi-chlorians apparently (ugh). But being Force-sensitive and being alive aren't the same thing: you can have an entire species that hasn't had a single Force-sensitive, and yet they're clearly alive. Ysalamiri are clearly alive.

    So is the remaining distinction between organic and in-organic beings? And where does that distinction blur? The Yuuzhan Vong have organic machines, whereas the GFFA has inorganic people. If we accept the former, why not the latter?
  15. instantdeath Force Ghost

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    A soul is a very foreign concept, one that is really only capable of existing in purely figurative terms, if even that. In Star Wars, I imagine the concept of a soul would translate simply to something touched/influenced by the Force, which would be pretty much everything (except those slimy ysalamiri). Oh, and Jar-Jar. He most definitely doesn't have a soul.

    Also, the soul of Trioculous is as black as the night.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Nov 12, 2012
  16. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    I'm not convinced it's particularly foreign at all, nor simply figurative, and would go as far as to say it's directly addressed in TESB with the "luminous beings" quote. And, to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, in this kind of context one does not have a soul; one is a soul.

    Also, importantly, I think it's a mistake to regard the Force -- Living or otherwise -- as some kind of "bio-field": it's metaphysical in nature. Indeed, Yoda tells Luke that the Life he's talking about has nothing to do with "crude matter", which divorces biology/organic material from the process of "Force creation" entirely -- even if midichlorians are (usually) necessary interlocutors for one to sense the Force -- and implies that capital "L" Life and the Force are, fundamentally, one and the same. I'd argue that every genuinely conscious/sapient/whatever being is a pattern in and of the Living Force.

    I mean, the question of inorganic people is already settled, I think, because we have the Shards -- and the Jedi have no problem accepting them as being alive. So... I dunno, I'm fairly comfortable in thinking that the droids are just on a wavelength that has yet to register to most Jedi senses. Kinda wish they'd have explored this with Anakin Skywalker, though, as him being the sole Jedi who could feel that droids were alive would have played rather well into his obsession with saving others from death ("If I can restore a droid to life, why not a person?" etc) as well as his eventually coming to regard the Jedi as hypocrites and liars.
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  17. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Oh man, I would have loved that. Heck, it'd be even more fitting for he who was more machine than man, coming to accept that there was no difference.
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  18. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    I wish the "Droids and the Force" article wasn't lost in Hyperspace limbo - there were some very interesting thoughts on the topic there.
  19. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    @Ulicus , but Yoda also says that "life creates it, makes it grow" -- so whether or not it is "between the rock, and the tree" and "between the land, and the ship," it's clear that life is part of it. You're right in that it needn't be biological life necessarily, but there's something about that. Is there a relationship between life and "luminous beings?" Was Yoda merely saying that a person's connection to the Force isn't a matter of size (relating to the contextual comments) or was he actually talking about souls? I don't know if there's enough there to be conclusive.

    We do know that people's essences can live on beyond death: Force ghosts and Sith spirits come to mind. We also know that a person's pain and suffering, or even their happiness, can suffuse a place. Does that provide indirect evidence of something that can be likened to a soul? It might well serve as indicia of such.

    As yet, we've not seen such of droids. We've seen droids exhibit emotions, we've seen droids develop personality, and we've seen them essentially adopt personhood. So why not the rest of it? It might be the wavelength thing you mention -- but Jedi seem to be able to detect other lifeforms and the like, it's just that they're "foreign." Why are droids -- something that Jedi are so familiar with -- different? Is it because people are conditioned to regard them as furniture or tools, so they're deadened to that kind of perception? Does the Force even work that way?
  20. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Yes, I think so. While other interpretations are surely possible, I'd insist that "Life creates it, makes it grow. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter" is meant to be taken as a whole and that the life to which Yoda is referring is the luminous. And if it's not material, fleshy stuff, what can it be "made" of but the Force? And, if that's the case, Yoda's effectively saying that the Force, in the form of Life, self-engenders.
  21. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    What's interesting is that RotS established ghosting as a specific technique one can learn, rather than being the simple result of a Jedi's essence separating from his body. If that's the case, to me, it almost speaks against the existence of souls in the greater sentient populace - or else, what's happening to everybody else's when they die? Why would someone have a soul if it can't live beyond their physical body unless they took the time to take Ghosting 101? Seems kind of unfair.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Nov 12, 2012
  22. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    I was under the impression that what made ghosting different was the "coming back"- everybody's soul passes on- except those of ghosts, who can delay their passing on for a time.

    At least, at the time I read Heir to the Empire.
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Emperor: Community & Lit

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    I got the same impression. Ghosting lets you anchor, but in a more flexible way than malevolent Sith spirits and all that. Other than that, you go to the afterlife which is apparently some sort of madness for darksiders and something... else for lightsiders. I don't think we need to make it terribly clear either way though, because it sounds a liiiittle too much like terran theology to me.
  24. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    They transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not.

    I think of a person's being or "Self" as a Force pattern, individual by virtue of its will and kept distinct by subsisting in a physical form. When the physical form dies, the will of the Self is subsumed by the will of the Force, and the pattern dissolves into the whole. The Self might want to go one way, but the Force is like "no, dude, gotta go this way", and it can't survive being pulled in so many different directions. This is what a Sith experiences as "chaos", as Plagueis outlines in Book of Sith, but what a Jedi would call harmony. There is no death, there is the Force, and all that raz.

    Obi-Wan transforms into the Force too, of course, but the implication from what Qui-Gon says in the RotS novel is that he persists because by the time he dies his Self is Selflessness, so unselfish and in tune with the will of the Force that it makes no difference. His will and that of the Force are one and the same. He's not being pulled in any direction he wasn't already going.

    Or, at least, that used to be the case before the CSWE turned Force Ghosts into selfish undead jackasses who deny the will of the Force.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Nov 12, 2012
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Obi-Wan does say he has "stayed too long and can no longer postpone his passage to what lies beyond" in Heir. Not that far out of tune with the notion that he is, to a degree "denying the will of the Force" by staying as long as he does.