Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.
Mia, I can buy that.
Jack, that sounds awfully convenient.
Really good episode.
Maul really is assembling all the "third powers" established in the EU... Mandalorians, Hutts, Black Sun, as well as the drug syndicates on Coruscant.
(just seems to have left out the Chiss and Hapans, which makes perfect sense for this era and keeps with continuity)
I like how these episodes are finally proving what I've been saying about Maul for years... he wasn't just a mindless killer, but a cunning plotter and a true apprentice that Sidious had hand-picked to replace him as Dark Lord of the Sith in case anything ever happened to him. Now we see what Maul as the undisputed Dark Lord would have looked like. Though he is definitely less subtle than Sidious, with his "join me or I'll kill you" attitude, but he is still young and inexperiended. Maul's underworld empire could definitely pose a true threat to both Dooku/Separatists as well as Palpatine/Jedi/Republic. But I bet Sidious is still the master...
I'm very amused that the Darth Maul episodes have turned out to be the best of the season so far.
Also, was it just me, or did the Falleen have a Klingon vibe to them? Maybe it's the facial hair and brow ridges.
The Falleen did seem more reptillian, more rough than smooth, more bulky than thin... at least from how I usually imagine them. But no big deal, the species should be diverse.
The Chiss want nothing to do with this conflict, as established in the Secret Missions books. The Hapans are a minor power compared to most of the factions mentioned in the episode. Their importance is over-inflated in the books. I'm glad we get new factions in the show like the Pyke Family.
TCW sometimes doesn't even comply with its own continuity. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chiss randomly appear in TCW.
For what it's worth, the Shadow Conspiracy novelization by Jason Fry makes it clear that the Falleen on Mustafar is just a vigo and not the head of the whole thing. Plus, Maul remembers when he crippled Black Sun ten(ish) years prior, which is fun. The novel is really great. Even further history on the whole Mandalorian/New Mandalorian/Death Watch thing. Speaking of which, I was surprised by how much of that "New Mandalorian" talk made it into the episode. Rather than sticking to the initial "Oh, we Mandalorians are a peaceful people. We have been for a very long time. I don't know what else you heard", they actually seemed to acknowledge that the New Mandalorians are a newer concept that "True" Mandalorians see as a failure. It was almost like the show was helping those trying to make the Mando-retcons. Go figure.
Yeah, this surprised me. It's a total about-face from George's supposed claim a few years back that the Mandos had always been pacifists.
I sort of hope that Filoni addresses Black Sun in his webdoc this week. That is, if they were just using it because they needed a big underworld crime syndicate, or if the old Darth Maul comic played a role.
When did George claim that? It would make no sense if he did, since from their very first appearance the New Mandalorians' pacifism was portrayed as being specifically in reaction to their society's violent history.
He never did. The Mandalorian warriors had always been warriors from the beginning. The ESB novel mentions Boba Fett's armor as belonging to warriors the Jedi fought in the Clone Wars. Which is what we see now. Nothing else has been implied by Lucas or anyone else involved in the show.
My point exactly. The show did alter our knowledge of Mandalorian history a bit, but this notion that TCW somehow portrayed all of them as having been pacifists for all of their history is just a canard that has been blown increasingly out of proportion.
This was brought up at one (er, two) of the panels at C6. Filoni sort of jumped back and forth between the "George told me..." and "but the EU says..." issue, and basically said that although he gave George the background to the EU's version of the Mandalores, George had his own vision of a more pacifist group that might have had ancient warrior ties, but had long grown out of them. Dave claimed they've tried to balance the two (George's idea and the EU's version) by not giving any direct dates about how far back that warrior past went. When I said "always pacifist" I don't mean the Mandalores -- I mean in George's mind, they're pacifists. Hence what we see on the show.
Right. Obviously the show states that they were once warriors, but are we talking "a thousand generations ago" or are we talking "about forty years ago". The original episodes made it sound like the former, while the EU seems to be aiming for the latter. I'm just commenting that today's episode seemed to make room for the concept that the show was acknowledging the possibility of the latter as well. Or, maybe the fact that I read Shadow Conspiracy first, which is clearly leaning towards the "not so long ago" perspective, that it colored my perception of how the lines were read in the actual episode.
For me, the original Mando episodes throw out mixed signals in terms of "This is what we're keeping from the EU" and "This is what we're ignoring". Plus, according to those episodes, they cast doubt over Jango being Mandalorian at all. So there's another monkey wrench if that pans out.
Filoni blaming Lucas. Never seen that before...
Until recently, Lucas had final say over what went into the show whether Filoni liked it or not, so what exactly do you expect him to do? I guess he could A) lie and blame everything on himself whether it was his fault or not, or B) just refuse to answer fan questions at all, but something tells me people would still be ragging on him for doing either of those things.
edit: I forgot option C--Please every single angry fan in every single way at all times.
The first two Mandalorian episode has these quotes:
"All of our warriors were exiled to the moon of Concordia, they died out years ago".
"I know these commandos fought in many wars, often against the Jedi."
"An extended mission when I was younger, master Qui-Gon and I spent a year on Mandalore, protecting the duchess from insurgents who had threatened her world. They sent bounty hunters after us, we were always on the run, living hand to mouth, never sure what the next day would bring. "
"A civil war killed most of Satine's people, hence her aversion to violence. When she returned, she took on the difficult task of rebuilding her world alone."
It's incorrect to claim these episodes ignores or retcons former EU, when they quite clearly reference both the TOTJ/KOTOR eras and the Mandalorian Civil War from the Jango Fett comic. Even expanding on the latter, which I like.
According to a quote from a black marketeer who profits from the status quo.
I've posted this elsewhere, albeit with bad language removed. (Didn't post it in the TV forum because they won't understand. )
Basically it shows how excellent TCW's writing is...
So they bring back Maul. His main motive? To kill Obi-Wan.
In the second TCW Maul episode, we see him and Sah-vage engage profession-changing Ventress and Obi-Wan.
Yes, Obi-Wan. Maul is right next to Obi-Wan.
Instead of giving us this Shadow collective crap, why don't you just kill Obi-Wan right there and get it over with, you moron?
Oh wait, you can't since Obi-Wan can't die. Now you must beat around the bush, circle around, and keep chanting to yourself that "you must kill Obi-Wan."
You're wasting my time and yours, Maul.
(Not to mention, Maul and Sah-vage literally torture him before the duel.)
I also don't buy any "then you won't have a story." The main story, which is what they're still using, is Maul is seeking revenge against Obi-Wan. He had his chance, but of course he can't do anything.
Although as I recall, Shadow Conspiracy establishes that this wasn't referring to the Mandalorian Civil War at all (which I agree with you would have made the most sense) but rather the "Great Clan Wars". Although maybe there's room to establish that as the (New?) Mandalorian term for their civil war? I don't remember enough details from the book to know if that's possible or not.
In my mind, the Death Watch win the Mandalorian Civil War and start the Great Clan Wars on Mandalore itself.
Which makes sense as the Mandalorian Civil War wasn't even fought, for the most part, within Mandalorian space.
At the time of the episode, the Mandalorian Civil War was the closest thing this "civil war" could be referring to. The very first issue of the Jango comic has a flashback to a campaign on Concord Dawn, which is in Mandalorian Space. It's not like the new info couldn't be within the greater conflict.
Well, at the time that issue was written, Concord Dawn wasn't in Mandalorian Space. I forget it was moved
Its the delivery that really sells it - both Darth Maul's sheer exasperation at the uselessness of the information given and Bo'katan's obvious happiness at Maul screwing up, plus her excitement at being able to fight.
Not to mention since he crippled it to the degree he did, it should really be on the rebound in this stage and thus a lot smaller and easier to control.
They have never, ever said that the Mandos have always been peaceful, and the first episode makes it quite clear that that they had a warrior tradition Satine is trying to suppress - complete with giant mural of the Mandolorian Wars. And the second episode establishes that the Mandolorians fought a devastating war within Satine's lifetime, which is what made her a pacifist in the first place.
Edit: Oops, looks like people already mentioned this. Oh well, I will leave this up anyway.
Considering Filoni's own proposals and plans, I am inclined to believe him - for example, there is concept art for the Death Watch using the same armor they had in Open Seasons, as well as some armor based on the Neocrusaders from Kotor.
Similarly, in the Ryloth episodes he originally planned for Ryloth's tidally locked nature to be very important - for example, it was why taking out those guns with Waxer and Boil was so important - there was no where else in the livable parts of Ryloth where they could land their big transports.
Not to mention the developers for the Force Unleashed had a similar story - many of their original pitches for the game were more restrained and EU friendly, but Lucas told them they were worrying too much and to just go crazy with it.
Finally, Filoni is willing to explain when Lucas has a better idea than him - he admitted his original pitch for bringing back Durge as a human was stupid and that Lucas' idea of Cad Bane worked much better.
It is not uncommon for wars to have multiple names. 7 Years War/French and Indian War/many other names, World War 2/Great Patriotic War, Queen Anne's War/War of the Spanish Succession, etc...
I have to admit, the Great Clan Wars sounds a bit more interesting, like a free for all instead of just having two factions.