Lit Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sabarte, May 12, 2008.

  1. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    That is true. Jedi, at least, believe in some kind of life after death. For a Sith, who's goal is only power, death is truly the end. I suspect Palpatine might not have a problem begging for his life, either (he might have already, depending on if you view his begging in ROTS to be genuine)

    You see it all in his eyes, though. Christopher Lee is such a great actor that you can see him begging Palpatine without saying a word. In that way, he still managed to go out like a badass.

    But I also agree with what MercenaryAce said, about a small part of Dooku still being a Jedi (seriously, TCW, Dooku is a much more complex character than you seem to want to show; he's far from a mwahahahahahah villain). He had a much more strict system of honor and dueling etiquette, something the Sith seem to only have when it suits them.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 5, 2013
  2. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    My impression on Dooku was also that he was too shocked to beg or anything. It was "Good Anakin good... now kill him" and Dooku was like about to say "What?!" when his head went off. Two things though I would think need to be considered with Maul. One is he was quite broken after what Kenobi did to him and two is that if anyone can make him beg it would be his former master. So, whilst it did break some of his cool factor, I think as said that its understandable. All I curious about now though is what Sidious has planned for him. Doubt he will welcome him back into the fold so I am thinking perhaps being sent as a disposable assassin for one last mission... unless he decides to test Dooku and say a fight between the two apprentices.

    Oh and I was thinking something now about the Darksaber. Maybe a pointless connecting of the plots but I do wonder if the whole Shadow Collective thing led to the Hutts seeing the Darksaber and thus Durga heard of its legend and decided to name his superweapon after it. Mind you, its not a necessity to connect the two but the Hutts were allied with the Death Watch during this arc so I do wonder if that had lasting consequences in the future.
    General Immodet likes this.
  3. JackG Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2011
    star 4
    IIRC Dooku did originally beg Palpatine (and not Sidious ;) ) but upon filming Christopher Lee voiced his opinion that such an act was beneath the character. The novel keeps it as it was:
    Whilst we're on the topic of Dooku, TCW and the RotS novel, check out this gem:

    That's the Dooku I want to see in TCW, not a 'mwahahahahahah villain' as @instantdeath puts it.
    Last edited by JackG, Feb 5, 2013
  4. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I think the novel itself has an explanation for the Darksaber name, something along the lines of it kind of looking like a lightsaber, so they named it as a screw you to the jedi or something.
  5. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I think it's rather more than that, though. It's not just a Jedi-Sith thing -- but selfless people are ok with dying for what they believe in a way that essentially selfish people aren't. Making it just about afterlife essentially levels the playing field between ego and altruism.
    The_Phantom_Calamari likes this.
  6. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I don't think it's just about afterlife- I'm generally not fond of religious allegory- just that it's a part of it, particularly since so many Sith are obsessed with eternal life. But yeah, ego has a lot to do with it as well. Most of the more powerful Sith seem to enjoy seeing themselves as invincible, untouchable. It's understandable why being so suddenly reminded of their own mortality, and of the chains that they're supposed to break, could have an unnatural humbling effect. And yeah, when you live only for yourself and your own status and power, death only becomes all the more final, and all the more terrifying. Though Maul shouldn't have that problem, since the dude won't stay dead :p

    @JackG Completely forgot about that part in the novel. You could argue either interpretation fits with the character. There's not much arguing with the "This is Dooku" part though. All of the "this is" sections are gold.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 5, 2013
    JackG likes this.
  7. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    Concerning the Sith and fear of death because they have nothing but themselves, I am reminded of this quest again:
  8. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    Anyway, if we're talking about Jedi at the time of TCW, there is no prospect of afterlife. They talk about transformation into the Force, but there's still no retention of self as far as most of them know. The difference isn't what actually happens, is that the Jedi are okay with it.
    Last edited by CooperTFN, Feb 5, 2013
  9. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    This is one of the reasons I really wish I had the confidence in there ever being more done in the DOTJ era after the main Rakata invasion story is over, as it would be so nice to see a darksider who was perfectly happy with dying, but who was still as power obsessed as any other, and a lightsider who was so obsessed with healing people that they ended up never dying.

    But alas, we'll just continue to get those cliche Sith obsessed with eternal life.
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  10. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Only if doing so had terrible costs -- like losing all of one's loved ones, etc and actually wishing for the release of death but not getting it because of this too-helpful Jedi. That'd be interesting.
  11. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    I would have liked to see that in the Republic comics, too, but I don't feel we ever got that.
  12. Esg Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Didn't he spare a bunch of Jedi and Sora commented that he can even make mercy a weapon?
  13. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    I do seem to remember him sparing Jeisel and a couple of other Jedi at the beginning of some issue. But his public persona in the show is looked upon as noble, too, like in "Heroes on Both Sides". I suppose in both cases we get mostly his true self, outside of the public and he comes across as unambiguously ruthless to me. I would have liked a little more nuance, like we see in Dark Rendezvous. OTOH, maybe that rarity is what made his encounter with Yoda in DR special.
    Random Comments likes this.
  14. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    An Ashla fanatic like that is the kind of thing I'd like to see, yeah.
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  15. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    Yes, I remember that (though he still killed the Clones).

    I also remember him giving a few good speeches in the comics that could make you understand why people fallow him .

    That said, Dooku does fall victim to uncreative writers portraying him as a stereotypical villain a lot, even in the novels and comics. Even before he actually turned evil.
  16. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Actually played that quest last time I played TOR. Definitely one of the most interesting side quests in the game. It highlighted something I had never really considered; many Sith seem to be a bit afraid of studying the light side, or at least, anything that clashes with they're philosophy.
  17. Rawne Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2008
    star 2
    Was that a Mandalorian Wars reference with the mural in The Lawless? Certainly seemed 'ancient' enough, at least with the Mandalorian's armour.
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    It's a cool quest, yeah. Quite a lot of the quests are actually quite interesting when you realise how taken for granted things are OOU compared to the perspective a Sith [or other person] would have about particular topics.

    For instance, I actually really like the fact most Sith don't even know who Darth Revan was, whereas in the novels you repeatedly get every single character in the Legacy era acting like they know every single fact listed on Wookieepedia.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Feb 5, 2013
  19. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Grr, just realized my typo. Hate it when people get "they're" and "their" mixed up. Oh well.

    And yeah, I love it when facts get misconstrued in fictional stories. A good recent example, funny enough, comes from a Zahn novel. I like that Revan and Malak are name dropped, almost as they're household myths, like King Arthur. But like you said, I don't like it when every character knows every private detail of every characters life. A prominent example is whenever authors (looking at Troy Denning in Tatooine Ghost) have every average person know that Anakin was Darth Vader.

    Stover played with this masterfully in Shadows of Mindor. I love the idea that half the crazy stories floating around about Luke Skywalker are false... with the other half being true, and often more crazy than his made up stories.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Feb 5, 2013
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I thought it was Guernica.
  21. TheRedBlade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2007
    star 3
    Getting in a bit late for this, but I do have to commend Maul on his actions in this episode. I still am HUGELY opposed to the decision to bring him back, but
    Show Spoiler
    him murdering Satine in front of Obi-Wan
    was the most Sith thing we've seen anyone do in a long, long time. Of course, Maul sending Obi-Wan to the exact same prison cells he had recently effortlessly broke out of made little sense, but nothing is perfect.

    Overall, I think this has been one of the strongest arcs of the entire Clone Wars show, further shows that the Mandalore episodes are not as damaging/careless/scary as once thought.
    Summer Dreamer likes this.
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    It was definitely tragic, I kind of can't believe the show went there.

    It has to be up there with (1) Anakin choking pregnant Padme, and (2) Anakin killing the younglings, as one of the most disturbing things depicted in Star Wars.

    What else in the EU (or movies) has come close? I can only also think of the death of Shmi, the deaths of Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, the deaths of the Jedi padawans at the beginning of KOTOR, the Nighsisters forcing Savage Oppress to kill his brother, Palpatine killing his family, and Plagueis & Sidious killing and resurrecting people over and over again (though I am tired so I'm probably missing a lot).
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Feb 5, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    A lot of people were decidedly disturbed by Tahiri's attempt to seduce Ben to the Dark Side in the most literal sense, in Invincible.
    Ulicus likes this.
  24. Quinnocent-Till-Sith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2004
    star 3
    Resa Greenbark.

    Just going by TCW, I can't say I found Todo 360 screaming for his life when he was unwittingly sent to bomb the Jedi Temple pleasant. Or pit droids being able to become the dictator of a planet and execute its inhabitants.
  25. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    I just keep thinking what a shame it is to have decided bringing back was the right move after the prequels had concluded. I maintain that bringing him back at the end of Episode II, revealing that he was the Sith to which Dooku answered, would have been ridiculously OMGOSH cool... and I was always able to dismiss that because, "Well, yeah, but they'd never bring someone back after he'd been cut in half".

    Now it's like... so close, yet so far. Gaaaah.