Lit A/V Clone Wars Continuity Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

It's more criticizing a previously level headed Jedi for being completely moronic for the sake of plot convenience. It's contrived and stands out as particularly stupid in a plot that is already stretching our suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.

 

I think this is on a whole different level than a Zayd or Amr strapping on a bomb vest and blowing up a busload of people occupying his land.

Presumably Barriss's thoughts are "violence = bad, Jedi Council believes in only violence now. Jedi Council = bad." There's nothing about her character here, or in the previous arc she was in, or for that matter in the EU where she was initially developed that she felt this way, let alone showing signs that she's starting to believe in violence as a valid method against the Jedi. Let alone "the Jedi serve the dark side" but at the same time she confirms that using red bladed lightsabers, which are associated with dark siders and Sith, suits her. In other words, to fight against the Jedi who have turned to the dark side I have turned to the dark side.

 

Danz Borin Agreed. Seriously, thank you. However, reading all those overreactions on LACWAC is pretty amusing.

 

Tell me Danz Borin have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Lucas the wise

 

Yes, he wants to kill off Ahsoka. G-canon.

 

Why would I be offended by your clear shear genius in regards to what is and what isn't good story telling? I defer to your clear expertise, and I retract my now obviously stupid and non-nonsensical opinions. Thank you so much for pointing out how much more astute you are than all those--seems like the majority actually--who really liked the story.

 

I think Bariss Offie is a knight now, but Star Wars is often plagued with logical gaffs.

Especially when it is more important to the writers to execute a change in the status quo rather than simply tell a story.

Think about it, why would any sociaty as advanced as the Galactic Republic need the Jedi to handle non-force users in any combat situation?

As a volunteer of auxilery group the jedi might make sense, but as Generals? Especially with the problem with the dark side due to long term exposuer to violent environments. It makes little sense.

 

Excellent finale.

I'm blaming Bariss's 180º on addiction to bota. I hear the cravings can get awful. Make it official now!

 

Fixed

 

"There's no botox, there's only the Force" (Jedi Code)

 

Instead of being snarky and attempting to back out of it, and try to pawn off it all on humor, care to actually back up your opinion? I never once called you out on your opinion. I just showed why the episode was stupidly written and moronic. You claim it was a great episode. Care to say why? I have yet to hear an honest reason from anyone why the episode was good. People just say: "It had great music, great lighting, and Asoka turning away from the Council was heart-wrenching and the betrayal was so sad."

Sure, the lighting and music were great. So is 99.9% of Michael Bay movies - doesn't mean their still utter crap. Let's take this in a different show context.

It's season 5 of LOST and you haven't seen Locke since Season 2. Out of nowhere Locke reappears to betray Jack. You are told they were best friends, told but never shown. The last you had heard from Locke he was a pacifist and eschewed violence. He had a brain worm that him and Jack removed. You know Locke is slightly older than Jack but not by much. You believe he is a student to a mentor, but you are not quite sure. Now Locke is betraying Jack.

- do you feel anything about the betrayal of Jack by Locke? I honestly doubt you would other than "Oh, I like Jack and he was betrayed." Which could have been done with using Character Template #3, Locke, or Kate, Sawyer or Character Template #5.

Why destroy Locke and write him off for future seasons when you could have used another character? Or at least introduced other, earlier, episodes into the season that focused more on Locke/Jack teaming up and thus making the betrayal more meaningful.

 

Agreed. This arc was pure rubbish from the jump...

 

Not really. Don't care enough and don't have the time for an in-depth analysis of why I really liked it.

Arguing opinion and preference is like arguing religion or politics or religion.

I will leave that to the experts like you who seem to get upset when others have opinions that differ from their own. To sum, it resonated with me. I think if you pull at the Star Wars threads as far as things "making sense," you will find many, many faults.

 

Ahh, classic, just bat out and try and throw one more famous snark attack at me while leaving, the old "I bow before your genius, you clearly are smarter" than me routine.

No where did I say your opinion was invalid or wrong or that your not allowed to have it. No where did I say my opinion is better than yours nor did I act like a genius or an expert.


What I WOULD like is so much as for you to defend your opinion or even at least say what WORKED. All I did was point out the 1) plot holes 2) lack of empathy for characters I received due to the distance of time and lack of energy the show put on characters (namely Bariss) and 3) the lack of logic in how the TCW universe works, such as the technology in the council/temple, the guards, the way the characters interact with each other, the plotlines, etc, all don't make sense in a real living universe sort of way.

You can't even so much as give a reason why you disagree or why the episode worked on any level and just backpedal after you called me out, and try and do a holier-than-thou routine and claim you don't have time and that this pointless. Debating the merits isn't pointless, otherwise there wouldn't be entire literature departments based on Russian literature or Shakespeare, etc.

 

All I did was say I liked it. Again, sorry if you don't agree. Also, don't really care. And didn't you call me out? Really, it's OK. Good points. We can disagree.

 

What's the point in liking something if your unwilling to defend it?

 

Not even to disagree with any of the larger complaints about the arc, but let's at least keep in mind that Ahsoka being off-planet when the bombing happened doesn't mean anything. Bin Laden wasn't in the US when 9/11 happened--if anything, it's surprising that Barriss would have stuck around during the attack after ensuring that it would be carried out. In fact, that could be further evidence that she wasn't acting alone.

 

Hey, thanks for stopping by the Lit Forum's Clone Wars Continuity Discussion thread. If you were looking for somewhere to discuss the cartoon without reference to the EU, I would suggest the Television Forum. If you wanted to give your opinion on the episode without others generally commenting, a scoring thread in that Forum is probably your best bet.
This thread is really for Lit fans talking about how the show affects the EU. While it does veer into show-only discussions, this is mainly because a number of us have no interest in posting in the TV Forums. If you're just coming here to tell people they're wrong and refusing to discuss with them, or that you don't care what anyone thinks, or that continuity issues bore you, you're just wasting everyone's time including your own.
Again, feel free to post here but it sounds like you'd be better off outside the Lit Forum.

 

Thank you for taking the time to offer your suggestions. I didn't tell anyone they were wrong. I simply said I liked the episode. I said some other stuff here and there too. I mostly do talk literature.

 

As long as we're working out the boundaries of this conversation, have things really degraded to the point that comments like these are acceptable as long as they have the right amount of asterisks?

 

It’s a shame that we all saw that twist coming two weeks away. Decent enough episode to end a decent arc.

I'm not pleased with the way Bariss was handled, at all, but it looks like Medstar is salvageable at least. (Though sadly I can't say the same for Side Trip). I like where this is going and the effect of Anakin’s character, but the cynic in me tells me all this just a half-baked scheme to get Filonis pet away from order-66 and into the live action show (where she probably winds up with the death star plans. ).

 

Considering Zayd or Amr is far ore likely to blow up a bus full of his own people then any occupiers, I think it is a valid comparison.

Heck, Barriss actions are a thousand times more logical and moral than any real terrorist - she didn't blow up a random street corner and kill a lot of random civilians, she destroyed a military hanger and killed soldiers. And yes, technicians arming and repairing war machines count as soldiers. She said specifically that she was targeting what the jedi had become, and again I think the military hangar they add or converted from something else is a pretty effective symbolic blow there.

Plus, her personality was described by the Approaching Storm as "impulsive" and she said herself that "she would prefer negotiations with a lightsaber over diplomacy to settle differences as she felt it was much more straightforward".

About the Senate acting as a court: there is precedent - for example, Ulic Qel-Droma was also tried for treason by the Senate with the Supreme Chancellor residing.

And if they had foreshadowed it less, I am sure that people, the same people no less, would complain that the twist "came out of nowhere".

Just as I am sure if the jedi younglings and Terra Sinube had stepped in, people would complain about how stupid it was for younglings to get involved in a fight between two skilled jedi.
Speaking of that scene I thought it was logical - whenever a bunch of people gang up on one person, they run the risk of getting in each other's way and being more a hindrance than a help. Circling around to make sure she had no avenues of escape was the more useful thing for them to do. And the kids stayed out because they are, you know, kids, and Sinube stayed behind to protect them. It isn't what we are used to, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

As for actions...well, let's see, at her journey to Drognar she saw a lot of good people die over a drug, saw republic officials stealing said drug for their own profit, was betrayed by a friend who had his home planet destroyed by a Republic weapons test, had a violent confrontation with a brutish anti-jedi mercenary working for the Republic who then was turned into a Republic hero by dishonest journalism, and nearly fell to the dark side when she injected herself with a drug that "opened her up to the force in new and powerful ways." That all sounds pretty disillusioning and demoralizing. Aye, the books had her resist the Dark Side, but Anakin resisted it many times before he ultimately gave in.
If you want to ignore the EU and focus purely on TCW, then, in retrospect, her earlier conversations with Ahsoka feature a lot of "do what must be done" sentiment. I think she may have questioned the war a bit there as well, but I need to double check.

Judging by the markings on the crate, those were republic military nano-droids. Likely the group she was part of made some shipments disappear out of the back of military transports.

Both Letta and Barriss reference being part of a larger organization, so all they have to do is exchange some information, and let some other people move stuff around - likely Barriss tells them where the shipments are coming in, some dock workers transport them to some warehouse owned by someone else, or just abandoned, where Barriss then retrieves them and gives them to Letta.
As for secrecy, all the various members need to do is keep their mouths shut and maybe alter some records.

In both cases, presumably her stealth came in handy - she could just steal the codes, and was presumably near by when Letta was choked. Vader choked someone from great distance with a view screen, so possibly she was watching from a security terminal (where she deleted the sound). And Palpatine recently chocked too people without any visual contact at all, so it is theoretically possible to choke Letta from the roof or behind the wall.

Granted, her stealth abilities are new, but it is hardly a crime to add abilities out of nowhere.

The same is true for a lot of things added to Star Wars, regardless of the source.

Plus, other sources have established that the Jedi do keep a small group around for the sole purpose of defending the temple, and these guards remind me of the Jedi Brutes from the ROTS game, mixed with Jedi Shadows from SWTOR.

The same is true of a lot of Star Wars. With enough time and motivation, I am sure I could create a list of things in the KOTOR or Legacy comics that make no Force-damned sense. Or even the movies that started it all - I remember my mother once giving me a rant on how Vader being Luke's father made no sense, completely went against everything from the previous film, and that the retcon in ROTJ was a very weak justification. Truth be told, I had to agree with her on most of it.

Actually, this is true for most fiction, and the only thing that makes less sense than fiction is reality, since fiction is written by and for logic loving humans, whereas reality is under no such obligation.

The main thing is the emotional reaction - when we like something, such flaws are easy to overlook, when we don't like something, these flaws stand out.

I recognize that there are plenty of valid criticisms here and it is almost frustrating for me how much better this arc could have been, but at the end of the day, I felt happy watching it and I would gladly watch it again, and I think that is what is the most important to me.

 

Another thing about the Jedi that have always odded me out! the lack of departments.

In Starfleet there are the Command path (The Red shirts, TNG,DS9 VOY) Goldshirts(the original series), Utility path Security/Tactical & Engineering (Gold shirts in TNG,DS9, VOY/ Redshirst in The original series), and the Sciences with medical, science officers, psychology (Blue Shirts, all series). I mean Star Fleet even have a military law/legal department (mostly on star bases).

Most people in starfleet have limited access dictated by their rank, departments, and posts within Starfleet.

For an organization tens of thousands of years older than Starfleet the Jedi have alot of fast and loose rules, hierarchy, and authority.

The more i see of thie era the more I wonder how the Russerian era Jedi and Republic lasted for 1,000 years!?

Why is every member of the Jedi coucil seem to be a warrior or Military Commander?

Who is head of Temple security? Jedi Internal Affairs? Why are the Medical Jedi/ Science Jedi perficly okyday with this clearly war of choice?

The Clone wars are what? 3 years? Where was the previous decent of opinions? I mean they were there from the beggining in the Dark Horse comic book series, but not in the animated series!

 

One of my old sig quotes was that "Reality can rarely be explained without contradictions". Storytelling - especially in a shared universe - is going to have contradictions and mistakes. However, the CWAS specifically - especially this arc - has engaged in a lot of hand-waving. That isn't necessarily bad - I was never bothered by the 'sounds in space' aspect all the way back from ANH as I accepted it as an ascetic choice to represent 'dogfights in space' - but they've done it to an exceedingly large degree in the show. I don't think it's outside of a standard deviation for what a children's cartoon normally does, but looking at it from an adult perspective, especially as something that automatically trumps the EU, it is rather bothersome.
I firmly believe in Peter David's statement on the nature of good storytelling. When the immersion is constantly broken by glaring flaws it's hard to form an emotional reaction. Putting this arc aside, I've had a big problem with immersion in a number of episodes because it doesn't even feel like there's a Big Galactic War going on during a show called The Clone Wars.